Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 14:13:15 GMT -5
Didn't we host an NIT game at Mason a few years back? i want to say it was against miami of ohio...and i want to say that it was in the mid 90's Indeed, 1993. From the Georgetown Basketball History Project: Georgetown 66, Miami (Ohio) 53 3rd Round, Fairfax, VA
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 13:53:19 GMT -5
Calling for JTIII to be fired is beyond ridiculous, but so is blindly defending him and completely absolving him of blame for this awful, awful season. This is his program, these are his players, this is his team. At this point name one thing the team does well: - our offense is stagnant - our defense is lazy (with some exceptions) - we are a terrible rebounding team - we constantly turn the ball over - we miss key free throws - we can't execute inbounds passes - we can't effectively break a press If III (rightfully) reaps the praise when the team succeeds, then he also must shoulder the blame when it does not. I suspect that he is more than enough of a man to do so, and he will be a better coach for it. I don't think anyone is absolving him of blame. We're just trying to reestablish perspective in the face of a fanbase that seems to have lost its collective mind.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 13:47:53 GMT -5
In my experience it typically follows disasterous years on the hilltop. In addition this thread is about a certain player quitting on his team, is it not? Either way, I'm not one for getting my panties in a bunch about message board speculation so get off my sack. You're the one who's speculating!!!!!!! WTF?
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 13:07:35 GMT -5
I am bracing for a summer of sudden departures of Esherickian proportions. Based on what exactly? I simply don't see how one bad season destroys the program forever. You're being completely ridiculous.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 12:38:10 GMT -5
TBird -- thanks for the Fox article. I stand corrected. When the Hill broke this yesterday, it was a little less clear what was going on. Interesting to me that they don't quite have the party discipline to prevent Dems from offering anti-gun-law amendments, but the NRA's threat to score it makes sense. From a policy perspective, that's the problem with this new Democratic majority. On one hand, it's great to have the large advantage over the Republicans, but on the other hand, the majority proves illusory on centrist issues. One reason they have their large majority now is the intentional strategy of welcoming more conservative Democrats than they would have usually supported. But the flip side is that they're not reliable votes for things like this. Should be interesting to see how this plays out. Additionally, I think NRA has already largely won, and that gun control is not a hallowed part of the Democratic platform anymore. Remember that Howard Dean, lefty extraordinaire, had an A rating from the NRA.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 12:35:13 GMT -5
I'm curious as to why this is "blamed" on the NRA. There are an awful lot of Democrats who are pro-gun and these are people who vote. For the record I am not a pro-assault gun supporter. I'm not even really opposed to the measure on the merits. However, I don't like Congress meddling in my local affairs.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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18-23
Mar 4, 2009 12:32:35 GMT -5
Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 12:32:35 GMT -5
I believe, give or take an outlier, that this is the age range of the players being vilified by an ostensbily adult community today. I also believe that these 18-23 year olds are just as sick about the results as most fans. I firmly believe that you will never hear one of them come out and say things like "the fat guy in section 101 did a crappy job cheering tonight." They are kids and could be many of our own kids. Go easy on them. They hurt enough right now without grown-ups? piling on. Doubleplusgood Pony Bingo!
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 12:31:45 GMT -5
I don't think everyone is spoiled. We've just come to expect a level of play and confidence that the Hoyas this year haven't shown. Their play is frustrating everyone and this is the forum to express that frustration. Whatever happens in the next 3 weeks, GO HOYAS! But the only reason you have those higher expectations are because of JTIII's success, which is why it's maddening to the see the Esh comparisons, the questioning of the offensive system, and even the few calls for termination that have emanated from this board.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 12:26:18 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but did you just compare the Esh years favorably vis a via the JTIII era? Really?
Well, at least I know not to take you seriously ever again.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 12:21:18 GMT -5
A while back the way said the problem with this team is we are not really that good because the composition of the team is lacking. One of the items he stated was the lack of a true post player (others have echoed this). Greg, for all his attributes, is not a post player in that he is not the thug JTJr said we were missing. He is more a finesse player and is selfless to a fault. He needs to be at the 4 where he can develop his game and he needs to bulk up so he is not pushed around near the basket. Before he came to Georgetown some downgraded him because he seemed to be soft or uninterested. Based on his first year, I think the soft is accurate and I think he has demonstrated a lack of fire at times. All of this can be corrected in off-season but his usefulness to us (and to his NBA career) is highly dependent on finding a true 5 and moving him mostly to the 4. I'm not picking on Greg since it's possible to do this analysis on each player. The other major lack in the makeup of the team is that of reliable 3-point shooters. Summers is probably the best of the lot but he is very uneven and many threads have identified his other deficiencies. Each of our starters or main contributors has his strong points but each are lacking in one or more needs: Freeman's defense and sloppy passing; Wright's decision-making; Clark's handle and shooting form; Nikita's footwork; etc. Some of these things can be improved over time but some cannot be changed appreciably. For instance, quickness cannot be taught but shooting form can. I see us improving next year (assuming all return) as guys get more experience but, unless we get a true 5 or someone who is able and willing to muscle underneath and unless we bring in or get major improvement in outside shooting, next year may only be slightly better than this year. You see, everyone? This is what reasoned, non-hyperbolic criticism looks like. Great post, ed.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 10:55:44 GMT -5
The program has hit rock bottom...ok for SHU or SH, or USF...but won't cut it with embarrassed Hoya Alums...'cause Georgetown wants winners (not necessary BE championships every year)--but not bottom feeder whiners either. Why rock bottom? Just a very few examples: Weak D-1 coaching staff...4 players (at least) not of BE caliber...an AA center who is too soft and will never be in the mold of GU big men...a terrible recruiting strategy (who in their right mind would recruit the aformentioned four)...stubborn adherence to the P offense...internecine warfare 'cause the kids don't want to be losers and may have lost their trust in the coaches...a system that the kids simply won't buy but is being shoved down their throats. Recognize the disease? The last time it occurred we called it Esh's disease. And you know the cure. One last hope: an all new group of coaching assistants who espouse the modern game and D-1 (not Ivy League) recruiting ability. And then ask...is III for some reason not happy in this pressure cooker basketball? None of the above is very pleasant...but that's the reality of "rock bottom." Congratulations, you will never be taken seriously again. Rock bottom is when your AD publicly states that competing for championships isn't the goal and you're happy to make the tournament once in a long while, while your losing head coach arrogantly tells everyone who will listen that he will be at Georgetown for 30 years. Rock bottom is going 4-12 in the Big East. Rock bottom is never making the NCAA tournament with Mike Sweetney as your featured player. I'm as disgusted by last night as anybody, but try and keep some perspective. Every program goes through ups and downs. Was Syracuse an embarrassment because they didn't make the tournament the last 2 seasons? We are two season removed from the Final Four and were a no. 2 seed and BE regular season champ last year who got beat in a de facto road game by a vastly underrated team that was THIS close to the Final Four. A lot will be on the line next season with basically the same team and no excuses as to inexperience. If they miss the tournament again, then its time to take stock of the big picture. For now, toss this season out the window, forget about it, learn from it, and get back to work. +100 Hoyaheaven, you are either completely insane or were in a coma during the Esh years.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 10:52:01 GMT -5
Yes, it is. You take away the good point in a data set, and the data set looks worse. Shocking!
I don't see at all how this is incompatible with the youth explanation.
That's not the issue. The issue is that because of our slow, possession-important type of play, JTIII errs on the side of getting back on defense (and shutting off the fast break). You can disagree with this, but our rebounding issues aren't because he's ineffectually teaching it or something.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 2:04:44 GMT -5
My apologies, my response to Giga kind of encompassed a lot of other people as well. I am not at all saying that tonight wasn't a badly coached game, or even that JTIII hasn't done poorly this season. My point is that one bad game or bad season does not mean we should fire the coach, scrap the offense, or think that there's a pervasive deficiency in JTIII's coaching style. I think a lot of people have jumped on the hyperbole bus to Crazyland, and that's what I'm railing against. Giga was merely the last straw. Are you saying there are not pervasive in-game problems that have plagued the program the past few years? "Plagued the program?" Where the hell have you been living? I guess that Final Four and Big East titles really "plague" us all the time. Your idea of a pervasive in-game problem is "not winning every game". That's ridiculous.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 2:02:28 GMT -5
Bando, Are you really comparing the talent on this team to 2003? Seriously? What does the talent level have to do with anything you said? You used the words "disastrous" and "self-destructive" to describe this season. I think they're even more fitting for 2003.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 1:57:50 GMT -5
Bando, My freshman year was 88-89. I've seen the best, and the worst, in the last 20 years (without the satisfaction of an NCAA title). This was a HORRIFIC loss tonight. A game we cannot lose. Up 15 - LATE- tournament on the line. And we lose. If you think a bit of that isn't on III, IMO, you are mistaken. Trust me, watching the game in person, there were plenty of execution issues during the game. But among those around me (who are better x's and o's guys than I), we could have done better personnel-wise. My apologies, my response to Giga kind of encompassed a lot of other people as well. I am not at all saying that tonight wasn't a badly coached game, or even that JTIII hasn't done poorly this season. My point is that one bad game or bad season does not mean we should fire the coach, scrap the offense, or think that there's a pervasive deficiency in JTIII's coaching style. I think a lot of people have jumped on the hyperbole bus to Crazyland, and that's what I'm railing against. Giga was merely the last straw.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 1:28:18 GMT -5
I think there's a difference between painting JTIII as a terrible coach and saying he butchered it tonight. I love JTIII. I would give every penny of my life savings (admittedly not much) to keep him here. But his substitution patterns and the general thrust of our offense from the 9 minute mark on tonight was awful. I don't disagree. But Giga's talking about systemic problems that I don't think are there.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 1:24:41 GMT -5
It hurts a bit that it doesn't feel like we went down with our best. When this team was really hitting stride against UConn and Memphis, it seemed to me that we had 6 players who were really of the caliber you need to compete in the Big East. Chris Wright, Austin Freeman, Jessie Sapp, Jason Clark, DaJuan Summers, Greg Monroe. Now, I think all of the play of Vaughn, Sims, Nikita and Wattad will help next year. But tonight had to be about this year. And you have to go down with a CW, Sapp, Clark, Summers, Monroe line-up when push comes to shove I think. Just my two cents, from one of the bigger "support III" guys. The problem was that a six man rotation wasn't going to be sustainable in the long run. Those guys would be run ragged by the time the season was over.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 1:21:27 GMT -5
You know, I expect better from you, Giga. Your post is the very definition of cherry picking, and it epitomizes how unbelievably spoiled the fanbase here has gotten. Do you people even remember the Esherick era? I do, because year 1 of that era was my freshman year. Just to recap, this was Esh's profile:
1999: 1st Round NIT Loss (to fraking Princeton!) 2000: 2nd Round NIT Loss (to Berkley) 2001: Sweet Sixteen (given to us by sheer dumb luck) 2002: Declined NIT bid 2003: NIT Runner Up 2004: 1st Losing Season in 27 Years
Edit: 1st Losing season in 5 years--Hoyas were 15-16 in 1999.--Admin
At the time we were Editeded about Joe Lang thinking making the tournament every year was an unrealistic goal. We were Editeded because we hadn't won a Big East title in over a decade. We were Editeded because we were an afterthought in the college basketball world.
In JTIII's 5 years, he's given us the following:
- a Big East Tournament title - 2 Big East Regular Season Titles - a Regional Title - 3 NCAA appearances - McDonald All-American recruits
Which is pretty much exactly what we freaking wanted. To paint JTIII now as some sort of terrible coach is just the epitome of shortsightedness and straight-up whining. I'm sorry, but it's impossible for us to be absolutely great every goddamned year, and part of being a fan is realizing that sometimes your gratification has to be delayed.
Everyone keeps throwing around the Esherick years as analogous to this one, but if you ask me, we look an awful lot like that awful UConn team from few years ago. Obviously, that season doomed UConn to college basketball irrelevance forever.
You're a bunch of petulant babies, and you sicken me.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 0:57:08 GMT -5
Brando is deleted if he would categorize this season as "mediocre"....We're just bad. Plain and simple. I see no reason to pick on the late actor.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Bando on Mar 4, 2009 0:56:38 GMT -5
bando...I wouldn't call this a mediocre season. let's call it like it is...this season was extremely dissappointing bordering on disasterous. in my 30 years as a die hard hoya fan...I have never witnessed a hoya team self destructing as this this one has. Were you living in a cave in 2003?
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