drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Mar 5, 2017 12:20:04 GMT -5
Getting back to the topic of this thread. I think we saw yesterday what next year will look like if LJ leaves. Without him on the court Nova just harassed Pryor and dared everyone else to beat them. And as we saw, no one could. So without Pryor and god forbid without LJ we could be looking at a year even worse than this. Now maybe Waters will be a multiplier. With him running the offense perhaps LJ and MD will get better looks and Mosley/Mulmore will be more aggressive. But anyone who was at Verizon yesterday couldn't miss the disparity in what a great team looks like and what we look like. Nova had basically 4- 5 guys 6'7" or under. All of them could dribble penetrate, shoot off the dribble, pass, and play defense. And compare their freshman, DiVincenzo, to ours Mosley. I really thought losing Archi would hurt them but Brunson has just moved right into the role. Wright has created a template that is perfectly suited to the players he recruits. No slow, no hands big man. No timid can't shoot guards. Just great swingmen who not just fit his template but but also fit the modern 30 second shot clock, 3 point shot, no hand checking game. Basically Otto Porter clones. Obviously losing Hart next year will expose some of their weaknesses but even still it may take years to reach their level.
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 5, 2017 12:37:36 GMT -5
Um, nope. Never ever blamed JT3 for Porter's early struggle with Wiz. I always blamed Wittman. Don't make things up. Is that like when you said you were permanently done with hoyatalk 4-5 years ago? Did you make that up? Dude, you're weird. Are you retro-stalking my posts? Don't remember what you're taking about and don't have time or inclination to find out. Point of this exchange is that you made up something you thought I wrote about Porter - I called you out on it. You were wrong. Own it. And grow up.
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Mar 5, 2017 12:38:02 GMT -5
Lots of arguments going on in various threads so kicking off where we go from here into our future. I'll take a change at the top as I've thought we needed it since it should have happened after March 2013. I'm sorry, but in 2013, Porter should have player of the year and JTIII should have been coach of the year. 2013 was his best coaching accomplishment. He took so little, and had us ranked in the top 5 at one point. If you say that you are skeptical that he knows how to get us back on track, I can go with that. 2013? For that team to dominate the Big East regular season after the Pitt demolishing and Whittington's suspension, it was amazing. I actually mostly agree with this. Aside from the FGC humbling, JTIII took a team that was essentially Otto and some other dudes, and turned them into Otto and a bunch of other dudes who defended well enough (and quite physically) to allow Otto to shine on O (also Otto was a great defender). The FGC disaster was, in a vacuum not the worst thing--it was however indicative of the limits JTIII has always had in adjusting in game to teams that find the wrinkle. The problem JTIII has now, is that the way that Otto 2013 team won was based largely on that killer defense--something that since the rule changes, Hoya teams cannot seem to replicate. He has now had 4 years to adjust to the rule changes, and we have seen no indication that he has the slightest clue how to defend stoutly without fouling. I am highly skeptical that year 5 is the one where he finally gets it right.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 5, 2017 12:46:30 GMT -5
Was it rule changes, or did we have better talent/athletes?
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 5, 2017 12:49:09 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but in 2013, Porter should have player of the year and JTIII should have been coach of the year. 2013 was his best coaching accomplishment. He took so little, and had us ranked in the top 5 at one point. If you say that you are skeptical that he knows how to get us back on track, I can go with that. 2013? For that team to dominate the Big East regular season after the Pitt demolishing and Whittington's suspension, it was amazing. I actually mostly agree with this. Aside from the FGC humbling, JTIII took a team that was essentially Otto and some other dudes, and turned them into Otto and a bunch of other dudes who defended well enough (and quite physically) to allow Otto to shine on O (also Otto was a great defender). The FGC disaster was, in a vacuum not the worst thing--it was however indicative of the limits JTIII has always had in adjusting in game to teams that find the wrinkle. The problem JTIII has now, is that the way that Otto 2013 team won was based largely on that killer defense--something that since the rule changes, Hoya teams cannot seem to replicate. He has now had 4 years to adjust to the rule changes, and we have seen no indication that he has the slightest clue how to defend stoutly without fouling. I am highly skeptical that year 5 is the one where he finally gets it right. The defense was the staple that burned the shot clock and then on offense you just used the full shot clock to look for a good shot. But now that you cannot play in your shirt man to ma. Fg% limiting time absorbing defense you basically have to outside your opppnent. It also means you can't run the Princeton time consuming offense The whole strategy with the Princeton is to give the inferior team a chance by making it a low scoring time consuming affair. He's basically lost without the defense because the offense hinges off the defenses ability to limit high percentage scoring opportunities and waste time. He needs to go pack the line because that defense naturally is t effected by the rules changes as much. Basically the best offense under the rules changes is the Villanova dribble drive and kick for 3s offense plus the pack line defenses that uva, Arizona, Wisconsin and butler play. These teams just happens to play this way before the rules changes so fortuitously benefitted by the changes but that is he way III has to go
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 5, 2017 12:51:43 GMT -5
Was it rule changes, or did we have better talent/athletes? Well it's the rules changes plus he one and done. Basically Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, UNC get 90% of the all Americans which leave the other 190 odd programs fighting for the remaining 10 mcD all Americans. So probability wise the chance of landing one are much smaller than in the Greg Monroe, Freeman and Wright era.
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Post by hoyafan2014 on Mar 5, 2017 12:58:54 GMT -5
Was it rule changes, or did we have better talent/athletes? And that is where I disagree with many posters. Some on this board think that poor facilities are an excuse. The tougher academics should not scare anybody off. A top 20 kid thinks he could be in the NBA within 2 or 3 years. Probably a low % of these kids really care about the true value of the education. If you have crap facilities, it makes your job as a recruiter that much tougher. Does a Princeton style offense hurt things even more? Maybe. The effort appears to have been made to get great recruits. Do we blame coach for missing on Noel, Woods, Kyle Anderson,,..,,,? If our new facility had been built 5 years ago, could we be in a different situation now?
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 5, 2017 13:06:19 GMT -5
Was it rule changes, or did we have better talent/athletes? Well it's the rules changes plus he one and done. Basically Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, UNC get 90% of the all Americans which leave the other 190 odd programs fighting for the remaining 10 mcD all Americans. So probability wise the chance of landing one are much smaller than in the Greg Monroe, Freeman and Wright era. One and done hasn't really hurt us. Monroe stayed 2 years. No NCAA tournament wins. Well, it seems III has difficulty finding middle of the pack type recruits lately. Mulmore and Pryor were band-aids this year for bad recruiting years. Bad recruiting is gonna rear its ugly head sooner or later. It has these past 2 years. If you look at Villanova, they don't pass the eye test. They play like a top team, they just don't look like one in terms of NBA lottery picks. You mentioned Wisconsin and VA. Solid programs with more a less, good 3-4 year players. Why can't we accomplish what they have accomplished? Not just offensively,and defensively, like those teams. But also recruiting-wise too. We don't necessarily have to recruit like Duke, Kansas, or Kentucky. Those lower seed teams that bounced us out of the NCAA's at least went to the sweet sixteen except for Ohio. It was like we couldn't keep up with those teams athletically even before the rule changes. Next year is gonna be more of the same. We could live with offensive limitations if we could just hit the boards and play some defense. III looks lost on that part too. I'm not sure how he fixes it. Unless he brings in a assistant coach or III and his staff visit a program or 2 to get feedback on how they run their defense. Football coaches like Nick Saban do that all the time.
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 5, 2017 13:06:20 GMT -5
Was it rule changes, or did we have better talent/athletes? And that is where I disagree with many posters. Some on this board think that poor facilities are an excuse. The tougher academics should not scare anybody off. A top 20 kid thinks he could be in the NBA within 2 or 3 years. Probably a low % of these kids really care about the true value of the education. If you have crap facilities, it makes your job as a recruiter that much tougher. Does a Princeton style offense hurt things even more? Maybe. The effort appears to have been made to get great recruits. Do we blame coach for missing on Noel, Woods, Kyle Anderson,,..,,,? If our new facility had been built 5 years ago, could we be in a different situation now? It's just the one and done. If Silver can get rid of that then it will equal the playing field for all the schools in terms of recruiting.
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 5, 2017 13:08:53 GMT -5
Well it's the rules changes plus he one and done. Basically Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, UNC get 90% of the all Americans which leave the other 190 odd programs fighting for the remaining 10 mcD all Americans. So probability wise the chance of landing one are much smaller than in the Greg Monroe, Freeman and Wright era. One and done hasn't really hurt us. Monroe stayed 2 years. No tournament wins. Well, it seems III has difficulty finding middle of the pack type recruits lately. Mulmore and Pryor were band-aids this year for bad recruiting years. Bad recruiting is gonna rear its ugly head sooner or later. It has these past 2 years. If you look at Villanova, they don't pass the eye test. They play like a top team, they just don't look like one in terms of NBA lottery picks. You mentioned Wisconsin and VA. Solid programs with more a less, good 3-4 year players. Not just offensively,and defensively, like those teams. But also recruiting-wise too. Those lower seed teams that bounced us out of the NCAA's at least went to the sweet sixteen except for Ohio. It was like we couldn't keep up with those teams athletically even before the rule changes. Next year is gonna be more of the same. We could live with offensive limitations if we could just hit the boards and play some defense. III looks lost on that part too. I'm not sure how he fixes it. Unless he brings in a assistant coach or III and his staff visit a program or 2 to get feedback on how they run their defense. Football coaches like Nick Saban do that all the time. He is completely lost on the defense end now that they cannot play aggressive man to man. My one complaint with him being a III backer is that he refuses to employ pack the line. It would cover for Govan and Hayes defensive weaknesses and make it hard for anyone to dribble penetrate.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 5, 2017 13:11:27 GMT -5
Is pack the line the only solution for defense?
What about other teams who are successful defensively who don't pack the line?
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 5, 2017 13:17:54 GMT -5
Is pack the line the only solution for defense? What about other teams who are successful defensively who don't pack the line? Like who. You would basically need NBA elite athletes at every position to play aggressive man 2 man. Even a stud NBA type defender is limited under the current rule set because you pick up too many foul playing aggressive NBA or international rule set defense in the ncaas. 2-3 zone would also work but you would need the right Personnel and years with they system like Cuse. Basically a really long team that can block shots, rebound and hit he passing lanes. But you look at the most effective defenses in the past couple years since the rules changes and they were schools that just happened to already play pack the line or have a coach come from the pack the line coaching tree like UVA, Wisconsin, butler, Xavier , Arizona.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 5, 2017 13:24:04 GMT -5
What does Michigan St. and Louisville run?
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 5, 2017 13:26:37 GMT -5
What does Michigan St. and Louisville run? Michigan st runs pack the line. Louisville basically presses lie crazy . Not sure what they run halfcourt but probably alternates between 2-3 and man 2 man. No pack line.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 5, 2017 13:33:09 GMT -5
What about Turgeon at Maryland?
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 5, 2017 13:34:17 GMT -5
What about Turgeon at Maryland? cheat. Like his Teachers, Calipari and Larry Brown.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 5, 2017 13:38:37 GMT -5
What about Turgeon at Maryland? cheat. Like his Teachers, Calipari and Larry Brown. lol I thought Turgeon was a good guy. Is pack the line similar to Tarkanian's Amoeba defense?
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 5, 2017 13:52:34 GMT -5
cheat. Like his Teachers, Calipari and Larry Brown. lol I thought Turgeon was a good guy. Is pack the line similar to Tarkanian's Amoeba defense? It's the offense that dick Bennett ran at Wisconsin that got them to the final four. At that time you would see score like 32-30 with this defense but it's evolved. It basically allows the smaller and less athletic team keep up with trhe big boys. You play the guy with the ball man to man and everyone else retreats to the imaginary pack line at the top of the key inside the 3 pt arc. It basically makes it impossible to dribble penetrate because there are too many defenders in the box. The other benefit is it allows for defensive rebounding since you have so many guys in the box and you get a lot of charges since you have to dribble penetrate past 4-5 guys on the way to the rack. And it avoids foul trouble which under the current rules is a bigger bonus. The one weakness is if you face a hot 3Pt shooting team that is patient they can swing the ball till they can find the open. 3 usually in the corners. The corners are the main vulnerability in pack line as oppose to 2-3 zone. This is how Tre Campbell took down Xs pack line that night when he was hot from 3. You will get open 3pt looks.
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95hoya
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Post by 95hoya on Mar 5, 2017 14:02:51 GMT -5
I can't think of a single P5 program that isn't rebuilding with a new coach that would accept back to back losing seasons without change. It's really hard to have losing seasons in CBB. I think even when Turgeon came on and had no talent and had a bunch of transfers did they not suffer through a losing season.
Gotta stand up to JT2. This is not his program anymore and he can only hurt it more than help it with his presence.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 5, 2017 14:17:11 GMT -5
I can't think of a single P5 program that isn't rebuilding with a new coach that would accept back to back losing seasons without change. It's really hard to have losing seasons in CBB. I think even when Turgeon came on and had no talent and had a bunch of transfers did they not suffer through a losing season. Gotta stand up to JT2. This is not his program anymore and he can only hurt it more than help it with his presence. Jay Wright had a losing season. In fact, he had 2.
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