eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Mar 4, 2017 22:59:46 GMT -5
Lots of arguments going on in various threads so kicking off where we go from here into our future.
I'll take a change at the top as I've thought we needed it since it should have happened after March 2013.
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bamahoya11
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Post by bamahoya11 on Mar 5, 2017 0:15:42 GMT -5
I like the idea of having a discussion about 2017-18, but I think it's hard to do that before the University decides what they want to do from a coaching standpoint. The two big questions we face, regardless of the coach are: (1) Who is going to play?; and (2) How are we going to play? I'm not sure that you have clarity on either of those points until we have clarity on the coaching situation.
My guess is that JTIII will return for another year and the University will make that point clear soon after the Big East Tournament concludes. Under that assumption, I think the question quickly becomes how he's going to actually field a competitive team next year. For all the discussions of "talent" regarding this year's team, I think the issue becomes more pronounced next season. Assuming that no one leaves the program, either for the NBA or otherwise, the only consistent scorer we return is Peak. Pretty much everyone else is basically a role guy, with Govan and Derrickson having the best potential to take a step forward as a consistent starting contributor. We can then pair Peak with a true freshman in Waters. Beyond that, I think it's completely unclear at the moment how we field a competitive team. We need several more key pieces, and maybe you can get that from graduate transfers, but that's a temporary solution at best because grad transfers will never get fully integrated into our complex schemes.
That then leads the question of what scheme we will try to run. I think we saw a little bit of everything this year, on offense and defense. On defense, we saw a press, we saw zone, we saw man, we saw switching, we saw not switching, and none of it ever really worked consistently. It seemed like for a while we wanted long, lean forwards to run a zone. Now, I don't really know what we want to run. And it's the same story on offense. Although we tried to run faster earlier in the year, we still ran a really complicated offense that relied heavily on our big men being able to dribble the ball, move the ball, and handle a pass. They couldn't do any of those things. Do we adjust the system to account for the group we have, or do we keep running the system we want to run and slowly start building people into our system.
Frankly, whether we have JTIII or we don't, I think the 2017-18 season is going to be a difficult one. Where we are now, this isn't a one-year rebuild. We need both players and clear direction from the coaching staff in terms of how we're going to try to use them. That direction has been lacking in recent years, as JTIII has seemed to experiment and constantly change in how he tries to adapt to the new rules. Whoever the coach is next year needs to commit to a direction and build on that. We at least need some continuity. And, at the same time, we need to be recruiting.
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 5, 2017 1:15:14 GMT -5
Frankly, whether we have JTIII or we don't, I think the 2017-18 season is going to be a difficult one. Where we are now, this isn't a one-year rebuild. We need both players and clear direction from the coaching staff in terms of how we're going to try to use them. That direction has been lacking in recent years, as JTIII has seemed to experiment and constantly change in how he tries to adapt to the new rules. Whoever the coach is next year needs to commit to a direction and build on that. We at least need some continuity. And, at the same time, we need to be recruiting. I agree. And I think regardless of the identity of the coach, the fan-base needs to take a step back and support the team and perhaps move off the ledge a little bit. Even though I don't support change now, if there is change, I will support that new coach and hope for the best. And, if JT3 continues as the coach for next year, then I think we, as fans, owe it to him, the staff, and the kids to give them a chance next year before jumping to conclusions the first time we lose. Now, I am in no way confident that will happen if JT3 is retained, but it would be what is best for the program. And, for the record, I am not saying people shouldn't speak freely or give their opinion. But whining and complaining and saying the same thing about the coach, night after night, gets old, accomplishes nothing new, and if anything, probably hurts our recruiting and our brand, which in no way helps the product on the court. That's why I am hopeful that regardless of what happens, most fans will give the team and staff a chance next year.
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Hoyas4Ever
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A Wise Man Once Told Me Don't Argue With Fools....
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Mar 5, 2017 2:00:44 GMT -5
Frankly, whether we have JTIII or we don't, I think the 2017-18 season is going to be a difficult one. Where we are now, this isn't a one-year rebuild. We need both players and clear direction from the coaching staff in terms of how we're going to try to use them. That direction has been lacking in recent years, as JTIII has seemed to experiment and constantly change in how he tries to adapt to the new rules. Whoever the coach is next year needs to commit to a direction and build on that. We at least need some continuity. And, at the same time, we need to be recruiting. I agree. And I think regardless of the identity of the coach, the fan-base needs to take a step back and support the team and perhaps move off the ledge a little bit. Even though I don't support change now, if there is change, I will support that new coach and hope for the best. And, if JT3 continues as the coach for next year, then I think we, as fans, owe it to him, the staff, and the kids to give them a chance next year before jumping to conclusions the first time we lose. Now, I am in no way confident that will happen if JT3 is retained, but it would be what is best for the program. And, for the record, I am not saying people shouldn't speak freely or give their opinion. But whining and complaining and saying the same thing about the coach, night after night, gets old, accomplishes nothing new, and if anything, probably hurts our recruiting and our brand, which in no way helps the product on the court. That's why I am hopeful that regardless of what happens, most fans will give the team and staff a chance next year. I actually think that there is enough talent on this team remaining (if Peak returns) to be an NCAA tournament team. Do you see how massive the bubble is this year. Last year it was huge bubble as well. 7 Teams from the conference are probably going to make the NCAA tournament, 6 for sure. There is talent on this team. It just doesn't fit the Princeton system. Also need to determine a defensive identity and stick with it. Changes have to be made. Whether JT3 makes the real changes necessary or steps aside and allows the next coach to come in and make the necessary changes, this team can win next year and be in the NCAA tournament.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Mar 5, 2017 7:11:41 GMT -5
We lose 5th year senior Pryor and gain freshman Waters. We need Peak back or we will struggle to score points. Tremont needs players to pass to.
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Post by hoyafan2014 on Mar 5, 2017 8:00:02 GMT -5
Lots of arguments going on in various threads so kicking off where we go from here into our future. I'll take a change at the top as I've thought we needed it since it should have happened after March 2013. I'm sorry, but in 2013, Porter should have player of the year and JTIII should have been coach of the year. 2013 was his best coaching accomplishment. He took so little, and had us ranked in the top 5 at one point. If you say that you are skeptical that he knows how to get us back on track, I can go with that. 2013? For that team to dominate the Big East regular season after the Pitt demolishing and Whittington's suspension, it was amazing.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Mar 5, 2017 8:02:01 GMT -5
I am incredibly hopeful that Waters can be the key to righting this ship. He can't do it himself but he's a huge step in the right direction. My concern is whether or not JTIII can successfully build and offense around him. I have very little faith right now that he will properly utilize Waters to maximize his potential. And if LJ leaves this team is going to have a devil of a time scoring points.
Look no further than Washington for proof that an all-world PG doesn't automatically equate to winning basketball.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Mar 5, 2017 8:40:53 GMT -5
I believe as of now that next year will be worse than this year--which is okay if there is a new coach who is installing his offense and defense. We already know that this team struggled to play defense all year. However, just as alarming are the offensive shortcomings of those players who are probably returning. Peak, the presumed leader, faltered badly down the stretch and reverted to some bad habits. His 48% shooting percentage is not great for someone taking as many shots inside the lane and his outside shooting (34%) was average at best and the same as Mulmore.
Also consider that Mosley and Mulmore seldom shot from outside (for good reason) and then realize that their overall shooting percentages of 37% and 36% are bad for guards. Kaleb shoots 44% overall (mostly from inside) but is horrible from deep (25%). In fact, Mosley, Kaleb, and Agau (21%) are all at or below 25% from deep. MD had a bad year which hopefully is just a sophomore slump, but 43% overall and 35% from deep are not good enough for someone counted on to provide an inside/outside threat. Govan improved offensively (51% overall) and at 38% is the best shooter from deep, which is good but not great. The one bright spot is that other than Kaleb and Govan all the others are very good FT shooters at or above 76%.
I hope Waters is as advertised and I hope that Mulmore, Mosley, Kaleb, MD and Peak spend their summers developing and improving their outside shot. I have no idea what to expect from Walker on offense and can only hope that whoever coaches this team can find a backup post who can score and another wing who can shoot at 40% from deep.
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 5, 2017 8:48:10 GMT -5
Frankly, whether we have JTIII or we don't, I think the 2017-18 season is going to be a difficult one. Where we are now, this isn't a one-year rebuild. We need both players and clear direction from the coaching staff in terms of how we're going to try to use them. That direction has been lacking in recent years, as JTIII has seemed to experiment and constantly change in how he tries to adapt to the new rules. Whoever the coach is next year needs to commit to a direction and build on that. We at least need some continuity. And, at the same time, we need to be recruiting. I agree. And I think regardless of the identity of the coach, the fan-base needs to take a step back and support the team and perhaps move off the ledge a little bit. Even though I don't support change now, if there is change, I will support that new coach and hope for the best. And, if JT3 continues as the coach for next year, then I think we, as fans, owe it to him, the staff, and the kids to give them a chance next year before jumping to conclusions the first time we lose. Now, I am in no way confident that will happen if JT3 is retained, but it would be what is best for the program. And, for the record, I am not saying people shouldn't speak freely or give their opinion. But whining and complaining and saying the same thing about the coach, night after night, gets old, accomplishes nothing new, and if anything, probably hurts our recruiting and our brand, which in no way helps the product on the court. That's why I am hopeful that regardless of what happens, most fans will give the team and staff a chance next year. I think if/when the school announces that JT3 will be returning next season, there will be a burst of outrage, followed by absolute apathy. Season ticket sales will crater, home games next season will be largely empty, traffic at sites like this will dip down to near nothing. Essentially we will become a ghost program. The upside for JT3 (besides his continued 3 million dollar salary) is that he would be able to work on his rebuilding project in near solitude. Very few will care, and those who do will eventually be able to gather at places like this without intrusion from any fans who actually want to follow a winning, dynamic program.
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 5, 2017 9:04:04 GMT -5
Lots of arguments going on in various threads so kicking off where we go from here into our future. I'll take a change at the top as I've thought we needed it since it should have happened after March 2013. I'm sorry, but in 2013, Porter should have player of the year and JTIII should have been coach of the year. 2013 was his best coaching accomplishment. He took so little, and had us ranked in the top 5 at one point. If you say that you are skeptical that he knows how to get us back on track, I can go with that. 2013? For that team to dominate the Big East regular season after the Pitt demolishing and Whittington's suspension, it was amazing. Dominate? They were in a 3 way tie for first place with an unbalanced schedule and got bounced in the semifinals of the BET. I agree that that was a very good, fun season - though I credit Porter more than JT3 for that - but to say that team dominated the conference undermines any point you're trying to make.
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professorhoya
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 5, 2017 9:50:21 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but in 2013, Porter should have player of the year and JTIII should have been coach of the year. 2013 was his best coaching accomplishment. He took so little, and had us ranked in the top 5 at one point. If you say that you are skeptical that he knows how to get us back on track, I can go with that. 2013? For that team to dominate the Big East regular season after the Pitt demolishing and Whittington's suspension, it was amazing. Dominate? They were in a 3 way tie for first place with an unbalanced schedule and got bounced in the semifinals of the BET. I agree that that was a very good, fun season - though I credit Porter more than JT3 for that - but to say that team dominated the conference undermines any point you're trying to make. When Porter was considered a bust you blamed III for not developing him. But when Porter succeeds you diminish III part in that. Funny how that works.
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Post by hoyafan2014 on Mar 5, 2017 10:00:58 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but in 2013, Porter should have player of the year and JTIII should have been coach of the year. 2013 was his best coaching accomplishment. He took so little, and had us ranked in the top 5 at one point. If you say that you are skeptical that he knows how to get us back on track, I can go with that. 2013? For that team to dominate the Big East regular season after the Pitt demolishing and Whittington's suspension, it was amazing. Dominate? They were in a 3 way tie for first place with an unbalanced schedule and got bounced in the semifinals of the BET. I agree that that was a very good, fun season - though I credit Porter more than JT3 for that - but to say that team dominated the conference undermines any point you're trying to make. 14 and 4 in the Big East is not dominating? Top 5 ranking is not dominating? Almost beating Indiana (+1 at time?). Big East without Whittington? Come on. We had Porter. Look at Washington this year with Fultz. Again, if you doubt that JTIII can right the ship that is fine. But I disagree that he deserves no credit for 2013.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Mar 5, 2017 10:10:47 GMT -5
If you give coach credit for Porter, then you have to blame him for the recent failures. Also, our immobile bigs love to shoot threes and our guards can't shoot- a recipe for disaster.
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Post by hoyafan2014 on Mar 5, 2017 10:17:44 GMT -5
If you give coach credit for Porter, then you have to blame him for the recent failures. Also, our immobile bigs love to shoot threes and our guards can't shoot- a recipe for disaster. Porter was great. I give coach a little credit for Porter. I give coach a lot of credit for 2013. It was a team effort. Derrickson and Govan can shoot. You have to give them good looks. This offense did not give Derrickson enough good looks. That is on coach.
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bamahoya11
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Post by bamahoya11 on Mar 5, 2017 10:21:16 GMT -5
We lose 5th year senior Pryor and gain freshman Waters. We need Peak back or we will struggle to score points. Tremont needs players to pass to. Tremont needs players to pass to, and even that alone says nothing about our struggles on defense. Assuming that Peak stays, it's still hard for me to see how we are going to be able to score and run the offense that more effectively. First, there's the scheming question that I pointed out above -- are we truly going to trust Waters to handle the ball at the point, or are we going to continue to run a complicated scheme that relies on all five players handling the ball? Waters isn't going to do us a whole lot of good if Akoy Agau or Jessie Govan is handling the ball and dribbling it, then passing it, 20-30 feet from the basket. I saw just that plenty of times yesterday. Now, this is a different team, but I would like to know if we are truly, seriously committed to a change of scheme that emphasizes the point guard's ability to handle the ball. Assuming that we do modify the offensive scheme, we then have to take on the defense. On defense, especially, I think it's very much a personnel issue. Hopkins caught a lot of grief on this board, but he was an excellent defender. He was fierce, tough, and really knew his role. Jabril was the same way. We don't have anybody close to either of those guys on this team. Even our best defenders (Akoy, possibly Kaleb) are spotty at best during critical moments. I also don't see a huge emphasis on defense coming in, and the guys who are most likely to help us offensively going forward (Derrickson, and Govan) really need a lot of work on defense. Ultimately, I think our biggest problem is personnel. We have some good role players on this team. I think Jagan and Akoy are the types of glue guys we need who can play solid roles off the bench. The problem is that we need starters, players who can own the role, shoulder the minutes, and score 10-15 points per game and who can do that without compromising on defense. I'm assuming that next year we will have Peak and Waters starting, and I'll assume for a moment that both of them can meet this description. I think we have three more spots to fill in the starting lineup, looking at it honestly. Maybe an existing player can develop to that standard, but they're a long way off right now. In that connection, do any of our recruiting experts have any insights on ways to go for the 2017 class? I looked around a bit on the recruiting board last night, and it was startlingly quiet. If we're going to be an NCAA team next season, I think we will depend on bringing some new people into the program between now and the start of the season.
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Post by hoyafan2014 on Mar 5, 2017 10:34:33 GMT -5
If you want to pick apart the offense and the defense the last couple of years I have no problem with that. Our injuries and Copeland being a bust did not help. All in all the offense and the defense definitely could have been a lot better.
Next year, we definitely need Peak back. Derrickson and Govan have potential. Can we pick up another transfer. UCLA went from crap to great. Just how great can Waters be?
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 5, 2017 11:37:48 GMT -5
Dominate? They were in a 3 way tie for first place with an unbalanced schedule and got bounced in the semifinals of the BET. I agree that that was a very good, fun season - though I credit Porter more than JT3 for that - but to say that team dominated the conference undermines any point you're trying to make. 14 and 4 in the Big East is not dominating? Top 5 ranking is not dominating? Almost beating Indiana (+1 at time?). Big East without Whittington? Come on. We had Porter. Look at Washington this year with Fultz. Again, if you doubt that JTIII can right the ship that is fine. But I disagree that he deserves no credit for 2013. Nope none of those things describe "dominant" or anything close.
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 5, 2017 11:43:55 GMT -5
Dominate? They were in a 3 way tie for first place with an unbalanced schedule and got bounced in the semifinals of the BET. I agree that that was a very good, fun season - though I credit Porter more than JT3 for that - but to say that team dominated the conference undermines any point you're trying to make. When Porter was considered a bust you blamed III for not developing him. But when Porter succeeds you diminish III part in that. Funny how that works. Um, nope. Never ever blamed JT3 for Porter's early struggle with Wiz. I always blamed Wittman. Don't make things up.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 5, 2017 11:49:34 GMT -5
If you give coach credit for Porter, then you have to blame him for the recent failures. Also, our immobile bigs love to shoot threes and our guards can't shoot- a recipe for disaster. Porter was great. I give coach a little credit for Porter. I give coach a lot of credit for 2013. It was a team effort. Derrickson and Govan can shoot. You have to give them good looks. This offense did not give Derrickson enough good looks. That is on coach. Derrickson got plenty of looks. He missed a few, lost his confidence and stopped shooting from outside; he started to try his inside game but bulled himself I to offensive fouls. Hopefully he gets his confidence back over the summer.
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professorhoya
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 5, 2017 11:52:22 GMT -5
When Porter was considered a bust you blamed III for not developing him. But when Porter succeeds you diminish III part in that. Funny how that works. Um, nope. Never ever blamed JT3 for Porter's early struggle with Wiz. I always blamed Wittman. Don't make things up. Is that like when you said you were permanently done with hoyatalk 4-5 years ago? Did you make that up?
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