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Post by bigelephant on May 5, 2011 8:24:06 GMT -5
I, for one, saw a good deal of promise initially for Jerrelle. It is too bad it didn't work out. He was a fighter and always tried his hardest, I hope Jerrelle considers himself a HOYA! Good Luck wherever you go!
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on May 5, 2011 9:16:04 GMT -5
Personally, I'm perplexed by all the transfers. My first thought is "what the heck is going on over there?" I for one think you need guys like Benimon. He may not be a starter or bench material. But the guy worked. Now, if there was a personality clash - which there seemed to be because he and CW and AF seemed to argue a bit on the court at times. Also it seemed that Jerelle and and Vee were good friends, so that might have been a factor.
JUST MY OPINION. But just, why all the transfers? Anywho...
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on May 5, 2011 9:24:30 GMT -5
BTW - if the fan bas wasn't behind me, i'd consider leaving too. If he'd read the board, he'd have been appalled. Who wants to stay where they're unloved? Not to say that can't change, but when you're young and get so much grief from the fan base. There were even some jokes about him that were low blows..  |
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on May 5, 2011 9:50:26 GMT -5
Oragnic arts, I think you may be reading too far into this one on Benimon. I would say the Vee transfer was more a symptom of real issues. For JB, he just got recruited over, we are bringing in 4 guys that are 6'8" and all are rated fairly high. So for JB, who was always going to a be a role player, was going to feel the brunt of reduced playing time. If his goal was to play college basketball on the court and not in practice, he made a wise decision.
We can talk about the importance of good practice players, but these kids want a chance to play not be known as great practice players. Personally, I am happy JT3 recruits kids with this type of attitude. They want to play, they work hard to play, but when it does not happen, they also leave for a chance somewhere else. No problem with that.
As for Vee, when you look at the lack fo depth in the backcourt, to me, that is a more signifcant indicator of an issue. Same with Hollis, but I will wait until May 8th to be more concerned.
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on May 5, 2011 9:54:11 GMT -5
You might not be right. Although i did say "if" but you might be right.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on May 5, 2011 10:00:29 GMT -5
that or they're completely unrelated. We shall see. Either way losing Bennimon is like gaining a McDonalds All American recruit. C'mon now, prof - gloating is such an unattractive quality.  You and I disagreed often about Jerrelle; I had higher hopes for him, and appreciated his effort and energy. That being said, I had to agree that as last season went on, his mistakes seemed to mushroom while his contributions diminished; he never seemed able to slow the game down enough to play with control and composure, which ought to be the case by the end of your sophomore season. Still, I am never happy to see any Hoya who gives us his all leave the program. And i think there is one place where we will actually miss JB the next 2 seasons - on the practice court. I have no doubt that he gave everything he had every day in practice, which is what you need from everyone in order to get better as a team. Given the concerns that others with more insight than I have posted about the "motors' of a couple of our recruits for 2011 and 2012, I think that having a guy like Jerrelle who will set an example and make the other guys work to match that effort can be a big plus - much like we saw with Tyler Crawford(didn't they nickname him "Sarge"?). Hopefully others can fill that same role. |
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on May 5, 2011 10:06:02 GMT -5
BTW - if the fan bas wasn't behind me, i'd consider leaving too. If he'd read the board, he'd have been appalled. Who wants to stay where they're unloved? Not to say that can't change, but when you're young and get so much grief from the fan base. There were even some jokes about him that were low blows.. Couldn't agree more about some of the over-the-top cheap shots taken about Jerelle and others on this Board. Although Jerelle gave it his all, he probably is better served from a basketball point of view by going to a mid-major where he will get more time and opportunity to develop his game. It is great to have a forum like this for fans to celebrate and vent, as the case may be, but it really is a shame when the comments become extreme. We know that Hoya players can read and do have access to the internet. |
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Post by FrazierFanatic on May 5, 2011 10:11:51 GMT -5
BTW - if the fan bas wasn't behind me, i'd consider leaving too. If he'd read the board, he'd have been appalled. Who wants to stay where they're unloved? Not to say that can't change, but when you're young and get so much grief from the fan base. There were even some jokes about him that were low blows.. Couldn't agree more about some of the over-the-top cheap shots taken about Jerelle and others on this Board. Although Jerelle gave it his all, he probably is better served from a basketball point of view by going to a mid-major where he will get more time and opportunity to develop his game. It is great to have a forum like this for fans to celebrate and vent, as the case may be, but it really is a shame when the comments become extreme. We know that Hoya players can read and do have access to the internet. Maybe we just need to add a board rule - for any excessively negative posts, the name and address of the poster will be provided to the player so that the matter can be discussed in person. |
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on May 5, 2011 10:36:43 GMT -5
Anybody who is "perplexed" by these transfers has not been paying attention the last several years. I could have told you that there was like a 50% chance or better that these transfers would happen the minute these guys committed. And if you watched last year unfold, I thought it was completely obvious. Most of these late signing period, "diamond in the rough types" don't pan out. III tends to use most of his scholarships and has found guys like Sanford, JB or Nikita late in the game and used them to fill out the roster. But eventually, they tend to get recruited over, and the reason why most other schools passed them over tend to show.
I also think it's time to retire the "you need some guys like this on the end of your bench" theory. So 2 decades ago. We've had several guys come through here in JT3's tenure who were clearly not BE caliber, and yet all of them have transferred out rather than be the 11th, 12th, 13th man. The idea that there are scholarship-worthy players out there who are going to be happy to ride the pine has been proven false. We can't really dip much lower on talent--if we do we'll be giving 'ships to players along the lines of Kenny Izzo, Bryon Jansen, Stephen Stepka etc. And we really shouldn't be doing that, because we can get players like that as walk-ons for practice/continuity. Just get the 13 best players you can and brace yourself in advance that some of them are not going to make it for 4 years. See those 6 freshman we'll have on the roster next year? SPOILER: Not all of em are gonna make it. Just prepare yourself in advance and wish them well when the time comes.
As far as our fanbase killing our players, I do think there are a lot of Hoya fans who are real dbags about it. Memo to these types: you are not showing any basketball knowledge or impressing anybody by saying any of our players "suuuuuuuucks". Some things are obvious to the casual observer, but some of the rocket scientists among our fans feel the need to make it explicit, as if they are enlightening us by "keeping it real". Everybody can see with their own 2 eyes that some of these guys are overmatched, but spelling it out on hoyatalk doesn't do anybody any good and just annoys the rest of us.
However, I'd add as a footnote that overall our fan base is no worse than any other on these things. In fact, we're probably better because the moderators here are a lot more vigilant than most other places, and stuff that's really over the line is edited. That can't be said on most college sports boards, where just about anything goes.
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Post by JWallsTreBalls on May 5, 2011 10:44:48 GMT -5
I cannot say I am sad or disappointed about this.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on May 5, 2011 10:46:21 GMT -5
Good points, RB - although I would argue that having a guy like Tyler Crawford on our bench did, in fact, help keep a fire lit under everyone's butt every day in practice. You are never going to play 13 guys, so if one of your scholarships ends up being an "effort'' guy who busts his butt in practice and supports his teammates on the court, it isn't the worst thing in the world. But you are right that virtually all major programs have guys transfer when they don't develop enough to earn time and/or they are recruited over - and 6 "freshmen" next year makes it exceedingly likely that it will happen again.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on May 5, 2011 10:55:18 GMT -5
Good luck to him, he worked hard and caught a lot of flack because he was overmatched on the court in BE play. However...All this talk of his great attitude, i'm not so sure. Friend of mine is senior this year said the guy was a jerk. if this is speculation or not allowed, apologies. How dare you Joey--don't you know everyone who is in the program is a genius and great kid? Why just ask all the people who believe if you say nice things about people without knowing them--they'll play better and be the people you imagine them to be. Some departures are best for everyone involved and this is one of those cases. So for those who say that saying "goodbye" is being "rude" or being a "jerk"--thank you. I'm happy to oblige and good afternoon to you all as well. Oh my goodness--with expletives like that--what is this board coming to??  Benimon had his opportunity and how he decided to handle it--well he's gone now. Hope he learns at next stop from this experience. If not--it's on him--not any fan who is critical or praising--we don't control how guys handle themselves, work on/off the court, and behave. If you want to give people that type of power--then address them as LORD prior to disagreeing or expressing your frustration with another poster. For those who haven't realized it's 2011-and CBB is a big business--WELCOME! You'll will find that roster turnover happens, especially when team is falling short on the court, recruiting mistakes are made, or a coach doesn't see a future with player in it, it happens. Do we all agree with it? Of course not--but then again--a lot of you going nuts about this and the "treatment" of Benimon are same who don't want to hear anything critical of III and Staff. Again-it's big business and with that-comes praise AND---wait for it kids----criticism. Oh that dreaded "C" word--what is the world coming to? Next thing you know--performance of the team on the court will matter? YIKES! Hey Mildred, put away the saddle shoes and cancel the sock hop--winning games in college matters and coaches/players are getting replaced based on performance? The horror--what will I do now?? I thought the boys gave it their all-and Coach just needs more time---he'll get it--so don't worry--and have a good summer guys--what will you be doing--counseling at Camp Smores? Goodbye to those who leave--be it their choice or not and hope they find what they are looking for elsewhere and Georgetown recruits better players, develops them, and wins games. That is what big time athletics is like and the off the court stuff--is on the player--they know expectations of schools they choose and expectations of society--if they choose to violate/not hold up their end--it's on THEM--not fans. For those who think that fans do control the outcome of wins/losses, players working hard or not, how they act on campus, if they graduate, etc....-maybe you have more unrealistic viewpoint of life then anything we type about basketball related issues. |
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on May 5, 2011 10:57:18 GMT -5
Good points, RB - although I would argue that having a guy like Tyler Crawford on our bench did, in fact, help keep a fire lit under everyone's butt every day in practice. You are never going to play 13 guys, so if one of your scholarships ends up being an "effort'' guy who busts his butt in practice and supports his teammates on the court, it isn't the worst thing in the world. But you are right that virtually all major programs have guys transfer when they don't develop enough to earn time and/or they are recruited over - and 6 "freshmen" next year makes it exceedingly likely that it will happen again. You're right, of course -- there are some folks. But less than people expect and certainly less than in the past. You can just tell from the quotes of players coming in -- though Benimon was not highly touted, he talked about making a significant impact at some point. That's a good thing -- he has strong goals and presumably works hard towards them. But it also means if he doesn't meet them, there's a good chance he won't be happy with the outcome. It's not a really "bad" thing in a moral/ethical sense. And in a practical sense, it's more neutral than anything. Wattad was the same way. I remember his quotes -- he was content for a year or so learning, but when it was clear he wasn't going to be a major contributor as a junior he wanted to play. |
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on May 5, 2011 11:15:02 GMT -5
Good points, RB - although I would argue that having a guy like Tyler Crawford on our bench did, in fact, help keep a fire lit under everyone's butt every day in practice. You are never going to play 13 guys, so if one of your scholarships ends up being an "effort'' guy who busts his butt in practice and supports his teammates on the court, it isn't the worst thing in the world. But you are right that virtually all major programs have guys transfer when they don't develop enough to earn time and/or they are recruited over - and 6 "freshmen" next year makes it exceedingly likely that it will happen again. Crawford is the counter-example, and as some remember there were a lot of rumors that he'd go after both his freshman and sophomore season. I agree he added something to the team throughout. That 2008 class was a unique group, and I think one of the biggest reasons Tyler stayed rather than transferring to the CAA was because of his connection with those guys. I mean that class had 3 NBA players, including a 7'2 center who turned down the lottery to stay a 4th year, and a walk-on point guard who turned into one of the best guards we've had at Georgetown in decades (and who himself is a counter-example to what I was saying before about spring signings/diamonds in the rough not generally panning out). But look at the list of players since JTIII was hired who stayed 4 years despite never being in the starting lineup for any meaningful amount of time. Tyler is the only one. Sims might make 2, but I expect he is the starting center next fall, at least until someone outplays him. So, I think Tyler is really the exception. Not that it can't happen or it never happens, but it usually doesn't. We've had guys like Wattad, Nikita, Benimon and others, all of whom were under-the-radar recruits, who didn't seem like BE talent when they signed, but who could have settled in nicely as specialists at the end of our bench, and none of them wanted to do it. So yes, maybe we could find more Tyler Crawfords, but it's very, very difficult. Most kids coming out of high school are not going to tell you that they'd be ok with not getting substantial playing time. If they do, they are again probably on that Izzo/Jansen/Stepka level, meaning we can find walkons of equal caliber. Many guys will tell you that they're ok with "the best players play" and happy to earn their way into the rotation--but their tune changes when the reality that they might not ever quite make the rotation sets in. Most of them envision themselves as major contributors and when the reality doesn't match up, they want to go elsewhere. I'm sure Omar and JB and guys like that told JTIII that they were fine with not having guaranteed minutes and earning their time, but when sophomore year ends and the outlook isn't good, they still decide to try somewhere else. You may stumble into some guys who are mid-major quality players (as Tyler, Omar, Vee etc. are) but who'd rather be bench players with a Georgetown degree than a star at a lower program, but those guys are rare, and it's a character trait that I think is nearly impossible to identify during the recruiting process. Most likely you'll just luck into a guy like that every now and again, as we did with Crawford. At this point, I just don't think it makes sense to even really try to identify these types of guys, because they may say all the right things (as I'm sure JB did) but change later. Why bother trying to recruit that diamond in the rough type and hope he turns into Tyler rather than Benimon or Omar? Think youre better off just trying to get the best players you can get, because in the end the results are likely to be the same (Rivers, Macklin etc. end up the same as Nikita, Benimon etc.) |
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on May 5, 2011 11:26:28 GMT -5
A generation or more ago, it was acceptable to say why a player was leaving, not so much today. "Transfer" is a standard means to acknowledge change, whether that be quitting the team, getting tired of the school, flunking out, homesickness, family issues, off the field trouble, or maybe they were simply not interested in the grind anymore. We don't "know" the scope or specifics of Jerrelle's issues and that's fine by me. In a better world, I would like to see a student that doesn't want to play basketball be encouraged to stay at Georgetown and get his degree. In today's Atlanta Journal Constitution, NFL safety Bryan Scott was asked why he went to Penn State. He said that Joe Paterno told him "‘Don’t come to Penn [State] because your friends are here, because I want you to come, because your parents want you to come or because we have a good football program. I can’t promise you football will work out, and if something happens, I want to know that you are comfortable on this campus, that you are sure you are getting a great education." I would hope that Georgetown makes a similar promise in basketball and if Jerrelle or Vee simply wanted to be a regular college student, they could do so. The link below also introduces this quote from Dikembe Mutombo: "I saw more than six guys kicked out [of Georgetown] after two years or after the first year." And I thought they transferred... blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2011/05/04/does-the-black-community-focus-more-on-athletics-than-academics-with-young-men/?cxntfid=blogs_get_schooled_blog |
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Post by FrazierFanatic on May 5, 2011 11:49:03 GMT -5
A generation or more ago, it was acceptable to say why a player was leaving, not so much today. "Transfer" is a standard means to acknowledge change, whether that be quitting the team, getting tired of the school, flunking out, homesickness, family issues, off the field trouble, or maybe they were simply not interested in the grind anymore. We don't "know" the scope or specifics of Jerrelle's issues and that's fine by me. In a better world, I would like to see a student that doesn't want to play basketball be encouraged to stay at Georgetown and get his degree. In today's Atlanta Journal Constitution, NFL safety Bryan Scott was asked why he went to Penn State. He said that Joe Paterno told him "‘Don’t come to Penn [State] because your friends are here, because I want you to come, because your parents want you to come or because we have a good football program. I can’t promise you football will work out, and if something happens, I want to know that you are comfortable on this campus, that you are sure you are getting a great education." I would hope that Georgetown makes a similar promise in basketball and if Jerrelle or Vee simply wanted to be a regular college student, they could do so. The link below also introduces this quote from Dikembe Mutombo: "I saw more than six guys kicked out [of Georgetown] after two years or after the first year." And I thought they transferred... blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2011/05/04/does-the-black-community-focus-more-on-athletics-than-academics-with-young-men/?cxntfid=blogs_get_schooled_blogInteresting that your definitons of "transfer" make no mention of a kid wanting to play(the reason he was given a scholarship in the first place), realizing that he was not going to get time in the future, and therefore deciding that he would have a better chance elsewhere. These things absolutely happen, and are to be expected to some extent, but celebrating them shows a lack of class unless a kid has been a problem player or a detriment to the school. IMO of course. And I am not sure if you are advocating that kids like Vee and Jerrelle be allowed to stay on scholarship even if they don't get playing time(which may well be the case for all we know) or that they be allowed to stay in school without scholarships if they want to, which may also well be the case, but which is also financially naive. |
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Post by FrazierFanatic on May 5, 2011 11:53:39 GMT -5
Good points, RB - although I would argue that having a guy like Tyler Crawford on our bench did, in fact, help keep a fire lit under everyone's butt every day in practice. You are never going to play 13 guys, so if one of your scholarships ends up being an "effort'' guy who busts his butt in practice and supports his teammates on the court, it isn't the worst thing in the world. But you are right that virtually all major programs have guys transfer when they don't develop enough to earn time and/or they are recruited over - and 6 "freshmen" next year makes it exceedingly likely that it will happen again. Crawford is the counter-example, and as some remember there were a lot of rumors that he'd go after both his freshman and sophomore season. I agree he added something to the team throughout. That 2008 class was a unique group, and I think one of the biggest reasons Tyler stayed rather than transferring to the CAA was because of his connection with those guys. I mean that class had 3 NBA players, including a 7'2 center who turned down the lottery to stay a 4th year, and a walk-on point guard who turned into one of the best guards we've had at Georgetown in decades (and who himself is a counter-example to what I was saying before about spring signings/diamonds in the rough not generally panning out). But look at the list of players since JTIII was hired who stayed 4 years despite never being in the starting lineup for any meaningful amount of time. Tyler is the only one. Sims might make 2, but I expect he is the starting center next fall, at least until someone outplays him. So, I think Tyler is really the exception. Not that it can't happen or it never happens, but it usually doesn't. We've had guys like Wattad, Nikita, Benimon and others, all of whom were under-the-radar recruits, who didn't seem like BE talent when they signed, but who could have settled in nicely as specialists at the end of our bench, and none of them wanted to do it. So yes, maybe we could find more Tyler Crawfords, but it's very, very difficult. Most kids coming out of high school are not going to tell you that they'd be ok with not getting substantial playing time. If they do, they are again probably on that Izzo/Jansen/Stepka level, meaning we can find walkons of equal caliber. Many guys will tell you that they're ok with "the best players play" and happy to earn their way into the rotation--but their tune changes when the reality that they might not ever quite make the rotation sets in. Most of them envision themselves as major contributors and when the reality doesn't match up, they want to go elsewhere. I'm sure Omar and JB and guys like that told JTIII that they were fine with not having guaranteed minutes and earning their time, but when sophomore year ends and the outlook isn't good, they still decide to try somewhere else. You may stumble into some guys who are mid-major quality players (as Tyler, Omar, Vee etc. are) but who'd rather be bench players with a Georgetown degree than a star at a lower program, but those guys are rare, and it's a character trait that I think is nearly impossible to identify during the recruiting process. Most likely you'll just luck into a guy like that every now and again, as we did with Crawford. At this point, I just don't think it makes sense to even really try to identify these types of guys, because they may say all the right things (as I'm sure JB did) but change later. Why bother trying to recruit that diamond in the rough type and hope he turns into Tyler rather than Benimon or Omar? Think youre better off just trying to get the best players you can get, because in the end the results are likely to be the same (Rivers, Macklin etc. end up the same as Nikita, Benimon etc.) I wasn't suggesting that you try to recruit a guy like that, it would be almost impossible to know how it would turn out, and as you say, could well take a scholarship away from abetter prospect. I am just thinking that if a kid you recruited turns out to be that type of guy, he should not automatically be forced to leave. |
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on May 5, 2011 12:09:31 GMT -5
Personally, I'm perplexed by all the transfers. My first thought is "what the heck is going on over there?" I agree. With Coombs-McDaniel transferring, a more in-depth discussion on transfers is needed. |
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DudeSlade
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Post by DudeSlade on May 5, 2011 12:11:52 GMT -5
If these kids think they can at least go play in Europe or the D-League or Asia or something like that and would be happy to do so to say they get to play basketball for a living, then I get these transfers (if they are in fact playing time issues as it would appear on the surface). But these kids aren't Vernon Macklin, a top 10 recruit who could legitimately have the expectation of making the NBA and whom I could understand thinking that a change of program and more PT could get him there.
At some point, like most of us realized during high school, you have to face how realistic your chances of making the NBA (MLB, NFL, MLS, PGA, etc., etc.) really are. I get that they are college bball players and can see how close it is, but they also have to recognize how truly far away the chances of the NBA are for someone of their talent. It's a hard fact to face, but you have to face it. At that point, when you realize you aren't going to be a professional basketball player, would you really want to give up a GU degree? I know some will say I'm naive to think that. But I know when I realized I wasn't going to be a professional athlete (in high school, mind you), after a brief bout of sulking I said, I want my life to be the best it can be and getting the best degree I can is the best way I know how to accomplish that. I struggle to understand why so many of these kids don't come to the same conclusion as well, as Tyler had to have at some point.
I know college sports are big money and these kids all have dreams and egos, but at some point you have to place the priority on setting yourself up as well as you can for life, whether that will be in sports or not. If they were transferring to other top academic schools, it would make sense to me because they'd want both (playing time and preparing for life), but the schools we are seeing them transfer to do not have the general reputations or alumni networks that can help set them up like GU -- sure, they can be successful out of those schools too, but there is a reason most people try to get into the top ranked schools they can. I have nothing against these kids and wish them the best of luck wherever they go, but I wonder where the parental advice or sage life lessons are to help these kids out.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on May 5, 2011 12:13:01 GMT -5
And I am not sure if you are advocating that kids like Vee and Jerrelle be allowed to stay on scholarship even if they don't get playing time(which may well be the case for all we know) or that they be allowed to stay in school without scholarships if they want to, which may also well be the case, but which is also financially naive. Ideally, scholarships should be multi-year awards but I realize they are not--even institutional financial aid is on a year by year renewable basis. I had a colleague of mine in the 1980's that had to leave Georgetown after his junior year and finish at Maryland because his aid was not renewed. If Vee Sanford or Jerrelle Benimon were on course to graduate and wanted to complete their degree regardless of basketball, I would hope Georgetown makes that opportunity available and, in a full-need financial aid environment, makes it as affordable as is possible. Other sports deal with this as well. There are probably a dozen rising seniors that were admitted to Georgetown to play football in 2008 that eventually left the team; all but one is still enrolled despite no longer being on "athletic" aid or scholarship. (The one transfer quit mid-season over playing time and now is a backup at New Hampshire.) Many of the others originally received some packaged aid due to playing football, but this was then convertible to general financial aid in the process after they left. Different circumstances, same goal: if you are admitted to Georgetown, it will make every reasonable effort available for you to complete your degree studies. |
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You and I disagreed often about Jerrelle; I had higher hopes for him, and appreciated his effort and energy. That being said, I had to agree that as last season went on, his mistakes seemed to mushroom while his contributions diminished; he never seemed able to slow the game down enough to play with control and composure, which ought to be the case by the end of your sophomore season. Still, I am never happy to see any Hoya who gives us his all leave the program.
