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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jun 20, 2024 9:18:36 GMT -5
It is amazing to me how college basketball has one of the most amazing events in sports and yet there are so many people hellbent on destroying it. It's really sad. |
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guru
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Post by guru on Jun 20, 2024 9:23:32 GMT -5
A quick aside on this "National Coach of the Year" point that people like to make about Cooley. Yes, he won the Naismith coach of the year award in 2022. However, winning a national coach of the year award one time does not exactly mean you're the greatest coach in the history of college basketball. Here are some other national coach of the year winners: 2022: Tommy Lloyd 2021: Juwan Howard 2020: Anthony Grant 2014: Gregg Marshall 2012: Frank Haith 2011: Mike Brey 2008: Keno Davis 2005: Bruce Weber 2001: Rod Barnes 1998: Bill Guthridge Guys have one good year all the time. That doesn't make them John Wooden. No one said greatest coach in the history of college basketball. If you take issue with a point, make the retort compelling and relevant. The point was not that the Naismith from 2022 makes him the best now or of all time but that he was recognized very recently to have excelled above all others. Add to that his history of successful rebuilds and acknowledged strong recruiting this year and you have the foundation of an argument that EC has the coaching chops to turn this program around. People like to cite his winning the Naismith because it is a very significant accomplishment by which the college basketball world recognizes excellence. You can downplay it or degrade it if you want, but the fact remains that he won it. He rebuilt underperforming programs at Fairfield and Providence. And he pulled together a pretty solid and strong core of athletes in only his second year, recruiting, many would say, from a disadvantaged position given our last decade of irrelevance. He hasn't been perfect and there have been disappointments, but I find it disingenuous to ignore real creds and to harp on shortcomings just to bust on the guy because the rebuild is taking shape more slowly than people want. It's pretty nuts - the guy has had one year, and some fans are throwing in the towel on him. Critique and call things for what they are, both good and bad. Then the back and forth here in Hoya Talk will be something worth being a part of. I just think his time here so far has been very mid - basically fielded a team of one-offs in his first season (though many fans insisted he was building a multi-player core). This offseason has been a bit better, and the roster surely appears to be improved, but it wasn’t the home run we needed to generate real excitement around the program. I’m also a little confused by how quiet he has been, given his vocal enthusiasm last year at this time. It doesn’t seem like his personality, and the program desperately needs more lines of communication with donors and fans to keep people on board. But, just to be clear, I’m not throwing in the towel on him at all, so even if I’ve been unimpressed by his time here so far I’m still hoping he’s the guy to get this turned around. |
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Jun 20, 2024 10:11:44 GMT -5
Anyone that watched Carter from his freshman year could see that he had NBA potential..and GTown fans saw 1st hand his freshman year that he was going to be really good....his trajectory has been rising each year and I don't see how English gets credit just because he was there in the end. In this clip, Carter credits English with helping him learn how to play off two feet which he said took his game to another level... Etomic he went from 9pts to 13pts to 20pts. On face value it would seem that a 7pt jump from 1yr to the next must've been the coaching change. I don't see it that way. He would've jumped up to 17pts if not for Hopkins getting injured...he was averaging 15.7pts before Hopkins went out. |
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Jun 20, 2024 10:40:21 GMT -5
English will also get credit for developing Devin Carter into a first round pick under his tutelage. How many first round picks has Ed Cooley developed in his 13 years as a high major coach? Anyone that watched Carter from his freshman year could see that he had NBA potential..and GTown fans saw 1st hand his freshman year that he was going to be really good....his trajectory has been rising each year and I don't see how English gets credit just because he was there in the end. Which of Devin Carter's 4 points against Georgetown his freshman year were your favorite? You only had 1 made basket to choose from, considering he went 1-for-5 from the field, so maybe you enjoyed his 2 free throws. www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore/_/gameId/401371888Pretty impressive that you could tell that a non-starter playing half a game against a bad Patrick Ewing-coached Georgetown would eventually become a lottery pick. Do you have any other breakout stars you can tell us to keep our eyes open for next season? |
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jun 20, 2024 10:59:38 GMT -5
In this clip, Carter credits English with helping him learn how to play off two feet which he said took his game to another level... Etomic he went from 9pts to 13pts to 20pts. On face value it would seem that a 7pt jump from 1yr to the next must've been the coaching change. I don't see it that way. He would've jumped up to 17pts if not for Hopkins getting injured...he was averaging 15.7pts before Hopkins went out. So should we ignore what he stated in the interview Zeke? You're only focusing on PPG, take a look at his jumps with FG% in all phases including effective FG%. www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/devin-carter-3.html |
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madgesiq92
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Post by madgesiq92 on Jun 20, 2024 11:59:50 GMT -5
Yes, we should ignore it, Friartomic B.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jun 20, 2024 12:04:09 GMT -5
It is amazing to me how college basketball has one of the most amazing events in sports and yet there are so many people hellbent on destroying it. It's really sad. Hot take : last year's tournament would have been a lot better if you add four more teams and one of those teams is Seton Hall. |
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Jun 20, 2024 12:55:30 GMT -5
Etomic he went from 9pts to 13pts to 20pts. On face value it would seem that a 7pt jump from 1yr to the next must've been the coaching change. I don't see it that way. He would've jumped up to 17pts if not for Hopkins getting injured...he was averaging 15.7pts before Hopkins went out. So should we ignore what he stated in the interview Zeke? You're only focusing on PPG, take a look at his jumps with FG% in all phases including effective FG%. www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/devin-carter-3.htmlSo he can either give credit to the coach that left his team for a rival or give credit to the coach that is at the last college he played for. So yeah I'm ignoring all of the kind words that give his coach of less than 1yr all the credit for his improvement....it's not like he jumped up to 25pts. He made a reasonable jump considering it's his 3rd yr and he lost his Batman/Robin. |
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Post by hoyaatheart55 on Jun 20, 2024 13:38:15 GMT -5
I say expand the tournament to 300 teams so we can get in
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jun 20, 2024 14:56:40 GMT -5
So he can either give credit to the coach that left his team for a rival or give credit to the coach that is at the last college he played for. So yeah I'm ignoring all of the kind words that give his coach of less than 1yr all the credit for his improvement....it's not like he jumped up to 25pts. He made a reasonable jump considering it's his 3rd yr and he lost his Batman/Robin. If you're choosing to ignore the young man telling the interviewer what opened up his game & who he learned it from that's good by me Zeke. I don't see how giving credit to English is a knock on Cooley in any way. |
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bluegray79
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Post by bluegray79 on Jun 20, 2024 15:13:11 GMT -5
Unless we have hard, verifiable evidence about a coach, it's a fool's errand to take a bunch of seemingly true circumstantial "evidence" and make definitive statements about them. "Lackluster", "past his prime"? Based on what? One losing season and some disappointments in the ensuing off season where we garner high recruiting and transfer class rankings? Maybe things aren't happening as quickly as many would like, but we have to be big boys and girls and separate our disappointments from the bizarro reality of college sports and 10 years of Hoya men's basketball institutional mediocrity. Reset your expectations. Rise above weak, petty arguments (low-hanging fruit) that are all too common here in HoyaTalk, and see the Big Picture that perceptive adults make every effort to appreciate. That's where Ed and the Admin live - we gotta go there to better understand what's going on. The underlying insidious notion that Cooley is a con man who has found an easy mark in our university administration stinks of small-minded, unimaginative nonsense. Remember, it takes two to tango -- in the world of getting conned, you have the con man, of course, but you also must have a mark willing to believe the con. We bring in a man in his 50's, a record of successes in building programs, a couple years away from Nat'l Coach of the Year. Both of us with a keen eye to the formidable challenge of resurrecting a once-great brand. Where exactly is the con? University administrations like ours deal in multi-million dollar deals on a daily basis (donation solicitation, building projects, expansion, etc.) -- we may be guilty of overpaying out of eagerness, but we aren't oblivious dupes. I learn a lot about a coach by watching how their players carry themselves, how they get along with their teammates, how they demonstrate a sense of being part of a team through their play and attitude. I'll know a little more when I see and sense how this group of student-athletes do these things. That will tell me a lot about Ed and staff and if he is past his prime or lackluster. Just as we wouldn't want anyone to define us solely by our worst moments or most visible failures, we can't do that to Ed and still think we are the insightful, smart armchair experts we like to think we are. What in the world is this response? I didn’t call Cooley a con man. Very strange. And of course the GU administration is more to blame for this if things continue on their current trajectory and this doesn’t end up working out. I guess you object to my using the term lackluster, but i think it’s an apt description of Cooley’s first 16 months here. To be honest, I never considered Cooley anything more than an average coach when he was at Providence, so I admit to being perplexed at the effort GU made to poach him. But I’m not sure where you found the con man thread to pull with such force. Fair enough -- point taken. Shouldn't have directed that to you. Apologies. I think Boya is the main perpetrator of that narrative. I'll redirect that to him/her/them. We clearly have different takes on Cooley, and therefore different expectations of how things might play out this year and the years to follow. I lean to the optimistic at the risk of self-delusion and try not to let my emotions lead me to dismiss all the nuances and complexities of this MBB situation under EC in 2024, which then might find me painting it all with a big brush, unwilling to see other sides & ultimately fail to see what's really in front of me. Most of the time coming here helps -- so keep 'em coming. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jun 20, 2024 17:28:43 GMT -5
For all the talk about Cooley, if he fails, there is a decent chance that the program never makes as big an investment in a coach, and that we are basically resigned to being Big East bottom dwellers into eternity. While DeGioia has had his faults, including with the basketball program, we have no idea what the next President would do if we had a basketball search (could be better, could be worst).
The only way we can be better assured that our program has a long-term future is for Ed Cooley to have success (whether you like him or not). With the way Georgetown is, he'll likely be here several more years win or lose. So even if you do not like him, we might as well win, right?
Hoya Saxa.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jun 20, 2024 18:56:15 GMT -5
For all the talk about Cooley, if he fails, there is a decent chance that the program never makes as big an investment in a coach, and that we are basically resigned to being Big East bottom dwellers into eternity. While DeGioia has had his faults, including with the basketball program, we have no idea what the next President would do if we had a basketball search (could be better, could be worst). The only way we can be better assured that our program has a long-term future is for Ed Cooley to have success (whether you like him or not). With the way Georgetown is, he'll likely be here several more years win or lose. So even if you do not like him, we might as well win, right? Hoya Saxa. Disagree with the first part. Why so pessimistic? Maybe the next president knows how to and conducts the first national search for a coach since 1972. Agree with the second part. Let’s win asap and that is with Cooley. |
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jun 20, 2024 18:59:15 GMT -5
I say expand the tournament to 300 teams so we can get in In the last two seasons, I'm not sure that expanding the tournament to 300 teams would have gotten us in. |
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jun 20, 2024 19:00:25 GMT -5
It's becoming less likely, and for once you can't blame a Bill Shapland or a Ronny Thompson for the lack of engagement here. There are a lot of headwinds facing this program, some of its own doing, others not, that Georgetown does not want amplified in front of traditional or social media. The claim that Georgetown would have ample NIL money this spring is an example of how this can backfire. Watching a winning coach at a high major level arrive and literally do no better than his less capable predecessor caused a lot of head scratching among those in the media who were ready and willing to tell the college basketball world that Georgetown was back. Now, we get awkward quotes like "Burks will have the freedom to make mistakes and not have a crew of 5-stars waiting to take him out. The former 3-star joins a Hoyas team looking to find any sort of talent" is not a message that rings with recruits or writers. Georgetown ended the Big East 10th and or now is likely penciled in as... 10th. Kyle Neptune is on a hot seat of sorts but retaining Dixon and adding Poplar and Shulga helped their cause, the same for Seton Hall with Addae-Wusu returning and Dual arriving. (Villanova even signed a European player averaging 15 ppg to what appears to be a non-scholarship role.) The Hoyas are, of course, still looking. Georgetown must excel in 2024-25 with three freshman and the hope that Mack does not struggle in the climb from Ivy League to Big East competition, and I'm not sure a state of the program address is where GU wants to be right now if a strong message isn't there. Do you seriously think Ed Cooley cannot find an interviewer who is friendly and who can do a good interview? If there is anything that is obvious from following sports media, most of them are cowards when it comes to asking questions. And I do not fully blame them because if they ask tough questions, their access is often threatened (and not just at the collegiate level), and then they lose any opportunity to get stories. Once Kenner starts and the guys are practicing (not sure what NCAA limitations are on that these days), there should be plenty to talk about. Tough question on not landing a center? Cooley can own it: "You know, I did want to bring in a center. The market was really crazy this summer with NIL really exploding to levels unimaginable just a year ago. But we have really amazing young guys. We have Thomas Sorber one of the best incoming freshman centers. He will really benefit from playing time. And Drew Fielder, who has been in the weight room working his butt off, and you'll see the difference when he is on the court in November." Asked about NIL, "We are fortunate enough to have started Hoyas Rising last year, and I am so thankful to the supporters of the program that have made such a difference. There's no doubt that we simply are not in the place like some other programs that have almost unlimited resources, but it's something we are working on." Asked about the bad defense, "Things were tough last year, I'll admit and own that. I tried a lot of different things, and it did not work. But we are going to have a much different makeup this year. Drew Fielder played good defense last year, and will be even better this year. And watch out for Thomas Sorber, a lot of people are going to be surprised when they see the impact he makes. He's a freshman, and with freshman, you always never know, but I am optimistic that he is going to turn a lot of heads." He can also use questions to brag about Mack, Peavey, developing Epps, McKenna, etc. There is plenty to talk about. I know a lot of people here are Cooley skeptics or worse, but the guy can give an interview. If I can write those answers above in 5 minutes, Cooley can probably easily do better than that off the cuff. Now, why he's not doing it? No idea. Keep your phone on. Ed Cooley will be calling to offer you a job.  |
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guru
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Post by guru on Jun 20, 2024 19:15:00 GMT -5
I say expand the tournament to 300 teams so we can get in In the last two seasons, I'm not sure that expanding the tournament to 300 teams would have gotten us in. |
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jun 20, 2024 19:26:09 GMT -5
For the two or three posters complaining about the Jeff Battle interview, remember what a 13 minute interview for a up and coming web site is: content. And what it is not. The Vault Report is self-described as "established in 2022 with a clear focus on storytelling within the realm of college basketball, tennis and events in Rhode Island." Over and above URI and Providence, they are seeking to gain interest in the Big East, and calling a former PC coach with whom they have a positive relationship is good business as it relates to these sites: subscribers and clicks. An interview show that blasts its guests isn't going to become the next Stephen A. Smith, they'll be out of guests, and in short order. A good interview with Battle might lead them to an opportunity with Cooley, or Kim English, or other Big East coaches down the road, as they have already done with Sean Miller. It's contrary to complain that this is insufficient when Georgetown fans have been clamoring for years to hear from the staff, any staff, in any form. These interviews are not Firing Line, for our older readers. You're not going to get much, if any, of a dialogue about where Georgetown was, is, or will be in 13 minutes, nor should you. And that's OK. The lack of touchpoints between Georgetown basketball and the majority of its fan base is a bigger issue than Jeff Battle or even Ed Cooley. Getting the staff (and by extension, Sports Information and the Office of Public Affairs) to be more comfortable in getting out messaging through interview opportunities like this can only be a positive down the road. |
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Jun 20, 2024 20:06:49 GMT -5
For all the talk about Cooley, if he fails, there is a decent chance that the program never makes as big an investment in a coach, and that we are basically resigned to being Big East bottom dwellers into eternity. While DeGioia has had his faults, including with the basketball program, we have no idea what the next President would do if we had a basketball search (could be better, could be worst). Cooley or bust is a strange attitude to have imo. The next search will likely be an actual search. I think that increases the chances that it's better. |
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metaphor
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Post by metaphor on Jun 20, 2024 20:14:09 GMT -5
For all the talk about Cooley, if he fails, there is a decent chance that the program never makes as big an investment in a coach, and that we are basically resigned to being Big East bottom dwellers into eternity. While DeGioia has had his faults, including with the basketball program, we have no idea what the next President would do if we had a basketball search (could be better, could be worst). Cooley or bust is a strange attitude to have imo. The next search will likely be an actual search. I think that increases the chances that it's better. If Hoya basketball does not improve significantly under Cooley, and given the tenuous nature of college sports, its possible a search for a big time coach won't be necessary. |
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Jun 20, 2024 20:16:43 GMT -5
Cooley or bust is a strange attitude to have imo. The next search will likely be an actual search. I think that increases the chances that it's better. If Hoya basketball does not improve significantly under Cooley, and given the tenuous nature of college sports, its possible a search for a big time coach won't be necessary. Not sure I understand. Big time like Pitino or Calipari type? There are plenty of good candidates that are up and comers. |
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