eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Feb 18, 2016 0:21:00 GMT -5
This team really sucked this year. Agreed on Trawick above as I think he's the only player who showed some real passion in last few years. III go to Philly and find another tough guard, that's what Jay Wright does.
Don't think Paul White would have changed anything. I don't think Nova has one kid from Philly on their roster but they do have 4 DMV kids.. I'd argue that as Philly stretches to the areas that surround it just as DC counts MD and VA. Jabril's high school wasn't even in Philly if you check it but close enough.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Feb 18, 2016 0:21:45 GMT -5
Yes. His basic skillset is startlingly underdeveloped for a highly-recruited kid finishing his sophomore year. That's a direct function of the assistant coaches. What are they teaching Campbell, Copeland, Derrickson, et al.? No one is running any sets, which is why DSR is left with chucking up threes and Peak is reverting to Kenner League ball in February. Cheap fouls and needless turnovers are the hallmarks of an unprepared team. But who is responsible for the staff?
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Feb 18, 2016 0:22:07 GMT -5
Agree to disagree about Paul White, whose ball moving ability would be a great asset to the offense and something that for the most part was missing tonight.
This team also really misses Isaac Copeland - the one who flashed to the FT line and decisively made a pass or drained the jumper. That guy has been largely MIA this year.
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Massholya
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Post by Massholya on Feb 18, 2016 0:22:24 GMT -5
Is it striking to anyone else that Ike really can't even dribble?? Then when he tries to throw an entry pass he throws it off defenders' thighs. Just mindblowing to me He looks like the guys in Space Jam after the aliens came and took their basketball powers. The degree to which he's regressed relative to last year is unfathomable. Our player development is incredibly puzzling. It's not just him. It's everyone but LJ. Marcus is also very bad. It is accentuated by our sets which seem to encourage guys to dribble into traffic (often their own teammates). It is indeed very puzzling how fundamentally unsound this team is.
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Post by dogfromduckhunt on Feb 18, 2016 0:24:38 GMT -5
You may want to edit that as your post makes zero sense. You want to talk about what we are talking about or post that. You want to talk about broader AD issues than let's take to another forum and do that. I'm posting above under the scenario that we still think we have a national program and are putting our best foot forward. We have been terrible at this judging against that all year nothing else involved in that just our BBall program against themselves. We can talk about the broader issues but don't confuse the issues as hard as that is for you to do. Call me names all you want. Again, we have not been good this year. So what is it you want? Fire the coach? We certainly have been a national level program in the "bigger" picture that you are suggesting I pay attention to. How many programs have been a four seed and a two seed the past four years? If you want to fire the coach, say so, and say why. Is the ability to be a 4 or 2 seed the goal for this program? Are we pretending like we didn't flame out both of those years? We haven't made the Sweet 16 in just about a decade. That's your big picture. Texas fired Rick Barnes despite the fact that he had made the tournament in 16 of the past 17 years, and Texas isn't even a basketball school. There is no reason that they should have higher standards than Georgetown. Why did they fire Barnes? Not because he couldn't make the tournament, but because the program was stuck in neutral, moving in the wrong direction, had no success in the tournament, had a listless and unenergetic program, and had no realistic shot whatsoever of taking the next step without a new direction. Sound familiar?
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Hoyaholic
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Post by Hoyaholic on Feb 18, 2016 0:25:32 GMT -5
Who are "they?" We aren't a good team this year. Who has been saying we are? Not wanting to fire the coach because of that reality doesn't mean I don't want the program to be better. You are saying that now as others saw it a long time ago and were called trolls and whatever creative names you have. We all want program to be better but some of us can see the reality of what we are others bury their heads and look no further than a current game. Take a look at the big picture, it's hard to do at first but eye opening once you do it. I'll admit, I needed a larger sample size than most to totally abandon hope, but tonight was my breaking point. No only do we turn the ball over at an atrocious rate (and mostly unforced in the form of poorly-conceived, high-risk passes), and foul at a rate worse than all but 8 teams in the nation, but there seems to be no game plan anymore. This is all on the staff, and even JTII has to realize it at this point. I used to get frustrated with III because of how stubborn he was in his strategy / rotations. Now I have no idea what he is going to draw up game to game. The first 5-8 minutes tonight we came out playing fast & loose, and pushing (or at least matching) tempo, all while our player most suited to this style (LJ) was on the bench. When we fell behind, we started slowing down and reverting to the slower, high-post-centric offense that has failed us all year. Cameron & Mourning barely saw the court tonight. And then Peak sat on the bench again as SHU opened up the game in the first 5 minutes of the second half. WTF! Here's my (IMO very defendable, but zero realistic) recommendation. We all know JTIII is Coach For Life. I propose his salary going forward is based 66% on his final regular season RPI (based on the average salary paid by the 5 teams ahead and 5 teams behind the Hoyas), and 33% based on NCAA tourney success. The tourney bonus could be positive or negative based on over/under performance to our seed. It's pretty clear to me that incentive-based compensation is necessary.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Feb 18, 2016 0:28:54 GMT -5
Call me names all you want. Again, we have not been good this year. So what is it you want? Fire the coach? We certainly have been a national level program in the "bigger" picture that you are suggesting I pay attention to. How many programs have been a four seed and a two seed the past four years? If you want to fire the coach, say so, and say why. Is the ability to be a 4 or 2 seed the goal for this program? Are we pretending like we didn't flame out both of those years? We haven't made the Sweet 16 in just about a decade. That's your big picture. Texas fired Rick Barnes despite the fact that he had made the tournament in 16 of the past 17 years, and Texas isn't even a basketball school. There is no reason that they should have higher standards than Georgetown. Why did they fire Barnes? Not because he couldn't make the tournament, but because the program was stuck in neutral, moving in the wrong direction, had no success in the tournament, had a listless and unenergetic program, and had no realistic shot whatsoever of taking the next step without a new direction. Sound familiar? Exactly the point. We have been the poster child for bad tournament teams and are a punch line for that now. Now we don't have to worry about that as we won't make the tournament which will save us that embarrassment which maybe you find agreeable. It's been a downward spiral to the point that we are now circling the bowl. Accountability. Justice Scalia (rest his sole) had a lifetime appointment but didn't know our HC job had same rewards.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 18, 2016 0:33:34 GMT -5
I don't think Nova has one kid from Philly on their roster but they do have 4 DMV kids.. I'd argue that as Philly stretches to the areas that surround it just as DC counts MD and VA. Jabril's high school wasn't even in Philly if you check it but close enough. I get what you're saying but Arch isn't a Philly kid, Brunson isn't a Philly kid, Booth isn't a Philly kid & Hart isn't a Philly kid.. None of their back-court/wings are from Philly.. Derrickson graduated from Brewster but he's a DMV kid, doesn't matter where you went to HS imo.. My main point was that there are "tough" players in the DMV for the staff to get after..
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Post by aleutianhoya on Feb 18, 2016 0:41:10 GMT -5
Is the ability to be a 4 or 2 seed the goal for this program? Are we pretending like we didn't flame out both of those years? We haven't made the Sweet 16 in just about a decade. That's your big picture. Texas fired Rick Barnes despite the fact that he had made the tournament in 16 of the past 17 years, and Texas isn't even a basketball school. There is no reason that they should have higher standards than Georgetown. Why did they fire Barnes? Not because he couldn't make the tournament, but because the program was stuck in neutral, moving in the wrong direction, had no success in the tournament, had a listless and unenergetic program, and had no realistic shot whatsoever of taking the next step without a new direction. Sound familiar? Exactly the point. We have been the poster child for bad tournament teams and are a punch line for that now. Now we don't have to worry about that as we won't make the tournament which will save us that embarrassment which maybe you find agreeable. It's been a downward spiral to the point that we are now circling the bowl. Accountability. Justice Scalia (rest his sole) had a lifetime appointment but didn't know our HC job had same rewards. Being a high NCAA seed is not "the" goal (for me), but it is one of the goals. It is indicative of a very good overall season and generally means that I enjoyed watching a number of entertaining games. Barnes didn't have a season as good as our 2013 or 2015 in any of his final six or seven seasons, so I don't think the trend line sounds familiar.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Feb 18, 2016 0:42:22 GMT -5
I'd argue that as Philly stretches to the areas that surround it just as DC counts MD and VA. Jabril's high school wasn't even in Philly if you check it but close enough. I get what you're saying but Arch isn't a Philly kid, Brunson isn't a Philly kid, Booth isn't a Philly kid & Hart isn't a Philly kid.. None of their back-court/wings are from Philly.. Derrickson graduated from Brewster but he's a DMV kid, doesn't matter where you went to HS imo.. My main point was that there are "tough" players in the DMV for the staff to get after.. Brunson's father played at Temple and played in NBA but that's Philly roots wherever he raised him don't kid yourself. Arcidiacono is from Langhorne which is Philly. On their roster there are five other players from the area. We are arguing nonsense but either Jay Wright is getting players and we are not or we are and not coaching them to compete. Either way it's a problem pointing in one direction.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Feb 18, 2016 0:45:13 GMT -5
Exactly the point. We have been the poster child for bad tournament teams and are a punch line for that now. Now we don't have to worry about that as we won't make the tournament which will save us that embarrassment which maybe you find agreeable. It's been a downward spiral to the point that we are now circling the bowl. Accountability. Justice Scalia (rest his sole) had a lifetime appointment but didn't know our HC job had same rewards. Being a high NCAA seed is not "the" goal (for me), but it is one of the goals. It is indicative of a very good overall season and generally means that I enjoyed watching a number of entertaining games. Barnes didn't have a season as good as our 2013 or 2015 in any of his final six or seven seasons, so I don't think the trend line sounds familiar. This continual decline has been your goal? I appreciate you trying to defend this but even for you it's getting difficult.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 18, 2016 0:53:38 GMT -5
Not much from JT3 at the post-game press conference... very similar to the ones after our Tournament flame-outs.
Basically, it was: we got to keep trying and hope that more than one player shows up.
Who is motivating our players through this crap?
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Post by dogfromduckhunt on Feb 18, 2016 0:55:09 GMT -5
Exactly the point. We have been the poster child for bad tournament teams and are a punch line for that now. Now we don't have to worry about that as we won't make the tournament which will save us that embarrassment which maybe you find agreeable. It's been a downward spiral to the point that we are now circling the bowl. Accountability. Justice Scalia (rest his sole) had a lifetime appointment but didn't know our HC job had same rewards. Being a high NCAA seed is not "the" goal (for me), but it is one of the goals. It is indicative of a very good overall season and generally means that I enjoyed watching a number of entertaining games. Barnes didn't have a season as good as our 2013 or 2015 in any of his final six or seven seasons, so I don't think the trend line sounds familiar. Barnes won 28 games and was a 4 seed in his 5th from last year. I agree that the trend doesn't sound familiar, primarily because he actually made the tournament in the year he was fired and the year before that, and in fact every year of his entire tenure except 1. Actually doing something in the tournament counts at some schools.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Feb 18, 2016 0:55:10 GMT -5
Not much from JT3 at the post-game press conference... very similar to the ones after our Tournament flame-outs. Basically, it was: we got to keepmtrying and see if more thanone player shows up. Who is motivating our players through this crap? That's funny, I mean the part about motivating.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 18, 2016 1:01:43 GMT -5
Here's my (IMO very defendable, but zero realistic) recommendation. We all know JTIII is Coach For Life. I propose his salary going forward is based 66% on his final regular season RPI (based on the average salary paid by the 5 teams ahead and 5 teams behind the Hoyas), and 33% based on NCAA tourney success. The tourney bonus could be positive or negative based on over/under performance to our seed. It's pretty clear to me that incentive-based compensation is necessary. I like it, but Pops will not. I would add bonuses for recruiting wins with 5-star recruits.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 18, 2016 1:04:43 GMT -5
The writing was on the wall since last Saturday.
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Feb 18, 2016 1:25:43 GMT -5
Agree to disagree about Paul White, whose ball moving ability would be a great asset to the offense and something that for the most part was missing tonight. This team also really misses Isaac Copeland - the one who flashed to the FT line and decisively made s pass or drained the jumper. That guy has been largely MIA this year. I agree with everything Dan said above. I think the loss of Paul White all season has hurt this team tremendously, not just tonight. Also Isaac Copeland has looked lost and indecisive on offense since his torrid start of the season. IMO the offense has become very easy to defend because of 2 things. No PG on the roster that can turn the corner off a pick and put pressure on the defense. Because they can't turn the corner coming off a 1/5 pick and roll they end up either going side to side or backwards ending with a deep heave from the perimeter at the end of the shot clock. The defense has its issues which is either it is extremely poor because of a combination of lack of effort or ability at the top (DSR and Tre). DSR has many many break down moments where either he is in the wrong place and he struggles mightily to get over the top of the screen which JT3 requires of his guards. Let's face it DSR has never been praised for his defense. He really isn't a fit to do all the things that JT3 wants his guards to do defensively and with Tre on the floor with him, you can't hide them both. I'm not going to sugarcoat it, Tre Campbell can't guard at all. He can't guard in space, against the pick in roll, he is rarely where he suppose to be in helpside and then when he does try to be in defensive help position, he comes over to much, leaving an easy passing opportunity back to his man for wide open shot or complete breakdown of the defense. What really complicates the backcourt issues (DSR & Tre) is when they play together you get very little defense and then your playing 4/5 on offense as Tre has regressed so much offensively with his jump shot. He was never strong at attacking the basket but now it's pretty embarrassing. You can actually see him ducking out of the way as he releases the ball on layup attempts in traffic. He did the same thing as a freshman but you imagine through experience and maturity he would have improved since last year. Nothing in his game has improved. Everything in his game has regressed. It has gotten to the point where Tre looks like he is playing above his head. He looks like the kid on the sideline you ask to play with you in a pick up game just so you have 10 players and can go 5 on 5. It has gotten to the point where he is just eating up minutes because we don't have another guard on the roster who we can give those minutes to. Tre is never in foul trouble because he never close enough on defense to pick up fouls. Outside of the Xavier game, he has done nothing all year. He has scored 3 points total in the last 8 games. 3 POINTS TOTAL IN 8 GAMES FROM YOUR STARTING POINT GUARD. His inability to put any defensive pressure in getting to the basket and finishing and his milk carton jump shot bogs down the entire offense making it harder for everybody else to get open looks. JT3 and the staff missed on Tre and it maybe time for the staff to admit it to themselves much like they admitted that Cameron can't play big minutes because of his deficiency.
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Feb 18, 2016 1:31:13 GMT -5
One last point to make. I don't want to accuse any players of quitting but watching DSR's body language and activity early and throughout tonight's game, he may not have completely quit but looks like someone who's just counting down the days...
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Feb 18, 2016 1:32:33 GMT -5
Agree to disagree about Paul White, whose ball moving ability would be a great asset to the offense and something that for the most part was missing tonight. This team also really misses Isaac Copeland - the one who flashed to the FT line and decisively made s pass or drained the jumper. That guy has been largely MIA this year. I agree with everything Dan said above. I think the loss of Paul White all season has hurt this team tremendously, not just tonight. Also Isaac Copeland has looked lost and indecisive on offense since his torrid start of the season. IMO the offense has become very easy to defend because of 2 things. No PG on the roster that can turn the corner off a pick and put pressure on the defense. Because they can't turn the corner coming off a 1/5 pick and roll they end up either going side to side or backwards ending with a deep heave from the perimeter at the end of the shot clock. The defense has its issues which is either it is extremely poor because of a combination of lack of effort or ability at the top (DSR and Tre). DSR has many many break down moments where either he is in the wrong place and he struggles mightily to get over the top of the screen which JT3 requires of his guards. Let's face it DSR has never been praised for his defense. He really isn't a fit to do all the things that JT3 wants his guards to do defensively and with Tre on the floor with him, you can't hide them both. I'm not going to sugarcoat it, Tre Campbell can't guard at all. He can't guard in space, against the pick in roll, he is rarely where he suppose to be in helpside and then when he does try to be in defensive help position, he comes over to much, leaving an easy passing opportunity back to his man for wide open shot or complete breakdown of the defense. What really complicates the backcourt issues (DSR & Tre) is when they play together you get very little defense and then your playing 4/5 on offense as Tre has regressed so much offensively with his jump shot. He was never strong at attacking the basket but now it's pretty embarrassing. You can actually see him ducking out of the way as he releases the ball on layup attempts in traffic. He did the same thing as a freshman but you imagine through experience and maturity he would have improved since last year. Nothing in his game has improved. Everything in his game has regressed. It has gotten to the point where Tre looks like he is playing above his head. He looks like the kid on the sideline you ask to play with you in a pick up game just so you have 10 players and can go 5 on 5. It has gotten to the point where he is just eating up minutes because we don't have another guard on the roster who we can give those minutes to. Tre is never in foul trouble because he never close enough on defense to pick up fouls. Outside of the Xavier game, he has done nothing all year. He has scored 3 points total in the last 8 games. 3 POINTS TOTAL IN 8 GAMES FROM YOUR STARTING POINT GUARD. His inability to put any defensive pressure in getting to the basket and finishing and his milk carton jump shot bogs down the entire offense making it harder for everybody else to get open looks. JT3 and the staff missed on Tre and it maybe time for the staff to admit it to themselves much like they admitted that Cameron can't play big minutes because of his deficiency. Paul White's going to solve all that? I can't read that far but I'm doubting it.
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Feb 18, 2016 1:36:18 GMT -5
The writing was on the wall since last Saturday. It's to the point where the staff really has to ask do they want recruits coming to games and having front row seats to watch this dumpster fire of a season go down in flames.
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