OldHoyafan
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,387
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Post by OldHoyafan on Jan 28, 2014 13:36:43 GMT -5
I have been critical of III in the past for his stubbornness in playing style he advocates and even some of his in game coaching moves but I think the last two games have been two of his best coaching games. He just doesn't have the chess pieces(queen,knights and rooks) to do anything else but grind each game out. Pawns by themselves will not do the job. I had to laugh when the commentator said before the game that the NCAA had declared Aegba ineligible for the game and DSR was hurting from a rib injury, I could hear III telling Markel not to walk under any ladders before the game. Complaining and self pity gets you nowhere, but acknowledging the reality of the situation this team and coaching staff finds themselves in and applauding a valiant effort by the team is not accepting mediocrity just reality.
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,596
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Post by This Just In on Jan 28, 2014 13:45:28 GMT -5
Despite the outcome, a big thanks to the fans (both students and alums) for their support last night. Provided a great atmosphere and really provided a boost to our guys when a lot of other things just weren't going our way. The students have been a plus the last 2 home games after a slow start, and I hope to see that kind of support at the remaining home games. Disappointed cause we played well enough to win last night. Just needed a little bit more from DSR, but he's obviously not 100% and he was enough of a gamer to fight through whatever was bothering him, so can't really get on him for that. Bell pretty much had to hit everything down the stretch to keep us from taking the lead late, and he did. Credit goes to him. Refs missed just about every call they possibly could (without the benefit of a monitor) last night. Obvious calls where players are reaching from behind not whistled, tiny little hand checks 30 feet from the basket apparently worse than sin. It continues to amaze me how our guys (especially the guards) continue to draw contact on their drives to the hoop and rarely see the FT line, while the opposition nearly always gets the benefit of the doubt. No doubt that the refs whistled Nova for some pretty questionable fouls too, but that was not a game where the FT disparity should have been 28-9. I thought we played aggressively on offense and didn't settle for jumpers all night like we have in some recent games. We weren't rewarded for it and JTIII needs to figure out why. The courteous discussions he's had with officials this year are clearly not getting it done. Nice to have Jabril back. He wasn't much of a factor on offense, but you could clearly see the benefits of not only having another ball handler to counteract the press, but it really kept Markel (especially) and DSR fresher late in the game, where we have faded miserably during the last few weeks. Can't help but think what if had him for the SHU and Marquette games. Also a big bounce back game from Nate. He was terrible the last few weeks, but really contributed last night, especially on the boards. Also liked what I saw for the most part from Hop, Bowen and Cameron. On a usual DSR-like shooting night, their contributions would have been good enough for a win. Hopefully the three of them continue to put together some consistency as we progress towards the end of the year. And for the people who have been screaming for Domingo and Hayes to get minutes, I hope last night puts an end to that for the time being. Both looked completely lost again, and it's not debatable. Both will need to spend the upcoming offseason looking themselves in the mirror and deciding whether or not they want to put in the time to remain viable D-1 players at the high-major level, because if they don't, the writing's already on the wall.Just KNEW someone would bring it up; nobody said they'd be world beaters or that they'd make a difference, the point is that Hayes and Domingo should be given the opportunity to play in spots and to get better. Heck, Cameron's getting more comfortable.... Question is why are they lost when they've gotten out there? Pretty much bet that JTIII will either not play them next game. People used to say the same thing about Bowen...this time last year. Make a mistake..."Now everyone, you see why Bowen does not play". I always believed players get better by playing, not sitting on the bench watching. Personally, I always take it easier on the bench players... People on this board disrespect bench players so much...I be like why?? They barely play..but when it comes to starters playing a lot of the same people barely say a word when they struggle. About Domingo & Hayes: My question is if Domingo & Hayes can't play this year on a potential NIT team..then when can the play?? |
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HoyaSC
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 514
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Post by HoyaSC on Jan 28, 2014 14:18:44 GMT -5
Great effort. Times are tough, but the tough get going. We are taking our lumps, but the guys haven't backed down. We are fighting and competing to the very end against some good teams. These teams are earning their victories against us. We aren't giving anything to them. In terms of effort, this team has been one of the most consistent teams JTIII has had here. The effort is outstanding. Absolutely agree. I've had more fun watching this team than many of our winning teams over the past few years. They are playing their butts off. I couldn't be more proud of these kids and the guts they've showed this season. I love watching them and pulling for them. It feels almost like a return to the Us vs. The Universe Hoya ethic. |
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Dhall
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,679
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Post by Dhall on Jan 28, 2014 14:52:43 GMT -5
DHall, I think you are a sane and rational human being, and nothing you've said is all that different from many other sports fans. That said... you've accepted mediocrity. If by that you mean that I've accepted that this team, right now, is mediocre, you're 100% right I have. So tell me what's wrong with that. Tell me what your anger and negative posting does to improve the team right now. It does literally nothing. Nada. Zilch. It makes you feel better perhaps, and you get to act superior to other fans because you can think you hold people to a higher standard, but it has zero positive effect on the team. I've accepted that they are mediocre right now. What's wrong with that? The effort level seems to be there. There are signs of improvement. What's the right management move here? You want the player or coach or employee or child or whomever you are coaching to continue to work on improvement. The right move isn't denigrating improvement. They know the goals. No one is happy with losses in the long term. But people need to have positive reinforcement of even small successes. The way to keep someone motivated is understand that improvement takes time and is gradual. There's no switch people aren't flipping. No one has accepted mediocrity in the long run. There's no reason to suggest the team is suddenly doomed in the long run. In fact, a lot of signs are pointing to a brighter future. Those are fair statements. I also have accepted that there are limits for this group this year. Unfortunately I also think it continues next year because you typically don't rely heavily freshman to win games for you. I don't think anything anyone writes here changes what happens on the court. Nobody is managing anybody on Hoyatalk. I'm trying to convey, not so well I guess, that last night's game (and Marquette of the 5) was actually the worst to swallow. I don't understand how people could be mad about Seton Hall or Creighton but relatively content with last night, for example. And part of that has to do with the fact that last night came after 4 straight losses. In the end, it is just a comment like everything else people write here. My only "advice" is to learn from mistakes made in previous games and I'm not sure our coach and players are doing that. I do believe they are giving effort, but if that's the standard then I equate it to showing up at work on time and then doing a poor job for any one of a million reasons other than laziness. |
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biggmanu
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 672
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Post by biggmanu on Jan 28, 2014 14:58:11 GMT -5
8. Best part of college basketball is the atmosphere of a game when the momentum builds for the home team. This monitoring checking has to stop, totally kills momentum and the atmosphere. I said the same thing when I got home last night. I don't think it cost us the game by any stretch, but the constant stoppages are terrible for the fan experience. I think the rule changes around expanded replay are way worse (from a fan experience standpoint) than the expansion in NFL or MLB. Officials are now able to check the video in the final 2 minutes of regulation and OT to determine who last touched a ball that went out of bounds and if there was shot-clock violation. (Similar to the current NBA rule). Refs are also now allowed to check the replay to determine who committed a foul, not just who the free-throw shooter should be. A smaller change allows officials to stop the game with under four minutes remaining in regulation and overtime to determine if a made shot was a two- or three-pointer, rather than waiting until the next timeout. Add in your shot clock malfunctions and 40 personal fouls, it's like you're watching a choppy episode of the three stooges instead of a basketball game (wish one of the other refs would slap Karl Hess around a little) |
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hoyaloya
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 156
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Post by hoyaloya on Jan 28, 2014 15:47:13 GMT -5
If Cameron is getting more comfortable by playing, why is not the same possible for Domingo and Hayes? But to maximize the opportunity, shouldn't they each be given the benefit of playing with 4 starters as Cameron was? Why put them both in at once? How does that help them?
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Post by x-centercourt400s on Jan 28, 2014 16:53:03 GMT -5
I feel better about the team after this last game despite the loss. Yeah, that is contradictory thinking to some degree but for me it makes sense.
The team has lost games this year due to a variety of reasons:
Out-talented on the night: Oregon, Kansas, Creighton
Emotional collapse: Providence, Xavier
Abducted by aliens: Northeastern
Undermanned: Seton Hall
But I'd have to say that the Marquette and Villanova losses were much more palatable for me because they were simply due to players making or missing shots at crunch time. If Starks hits both his free throws at the end vs Marquette that game is won in regulation. And last night there were about five open shot attempts that decided the game, including the Villanova threes that went in and ours from Cameron and DSR that did not. Now I wouldn't necessarily call it bad luck that those shots didn't go down and that we ended up with two home losses instead of two hard fought wins, because a player's ability to execute in the clutch is mostly skill not luck, but I do think that those shots could easily have gone the other way which would have resulted in a much better position in the conference and with hope still burning in our hearts.
This team seems balanced on a knife's edge of success and unfortunately the few plays that determined the Marquette and Villanova games unfailingly went the other way. Each individual determining play vs Marquette and Villanova wasn't due to bad luck, but the confluence of all of them going against the Hoyas both nights was. I've got to think that the random nature of the universe will assert itself soon and the luck will turn and end of game plays will go our way again.
At least that's what lets me sleep at night.
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bmartin
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,459
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Post by bmartin on Jan 28, 2014 17:10:57 GMT -5
If Cameron is getting more comfortable by playing, why is not the same possible for Domingo and Hayes? But to maximize the opportunity, shouldn't they each be given the benefit of playing with 4 starters as Cameron was? Why put them both in at once? How does that help them? They don't play because there are other players playing ahead of them. How is that so hard to understand? This isn't a U-6 soccer team. And the fact that they were on the floor together briefly had no effect on either since they played no where near each other and neither one wanted the ball. Hayes occupied space, committed a foul, couldn't catch a pass. Domingo showed he is very easy to trap when he gets the ball. But they did allow a few other players to get brief rests. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 28, 2014 17:11:25 GMT -5
People used to say the same thing about Bowen...this time last year. Make a mistake..."Now everyone, you see why Bowen does not play". I always believed players get better by playing, not sitting on the bench watching. Personally, I always take it easier on the bench players... People on this board disrespect bench players so much...I be like why?? They barely play..but when it comes to starters playing a lot of the same people barely say a word when they struggle. About Domingo & Hayes: My question is if Domingo & Hayes can't play this year on a potential NIT team..then when can the play?? TJI, with all due respect, I sometimes think that the only thing that would make you happy would be for John Thompson III to have a 10 man rotation, with each guy getting 20 minutes each. And even then, you'd probably argue that the remaining 3 guys on the bench should get extra time, as well. Players play a lot more in practice than they do during games. That doesn't mean game experience is not important, and there probably are certain players who get better in real games. I get that, but when you have a close game (like last night) that is not necessarily the time to be trotting out players who do not show enough in practice. Perhaps the out of conference games or blow outs are times for that (and yes, I know JT3 tends to keep a tight rotation even then), but I don't think a game like last night is one where you really should expect Domingo or Hayes to get a lot more time. Bench players get plenty of respect here. I think a lot of people respect Trawick, a ton of people respected Porter and Whittington when they came off the bench their freshman year, Patrick Ewing Jr., and other bench players. If I say Domingo and Hayes should not get a lot of minutes, I am not disrespecting them. I just want to win, and these players getting a lot of run does not necessarily fit. Trust me, if either Domingo or Hayes could contribute, I would love to see that, and see them get minutes. As far as the starters, I do believe that generally they can play a lot of minutes and still retain effectiveness. There are cases - like the Xavier game - where that is not necessarily true (and again, there's a big difference between 40 minutes and 33-35), but in a slower paced game with tons of fouls, I do expect our guys to be able to play even if they are a little tired. In my mind a DSR with 121 offensive efficiency and somewhat tired, is better than a fresh sub-100 offensive efficiency bench player. Again, I do think it's good to give people like Starks and DSR some rest, but I don't think it's asking too much to get 30-35 minutes out of them, especially given that we are not an uptempo team, generally. |
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,605
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Post by prhoya on Jan 28, 2014 17:42:31 GMT -5
And the fact that they were on the floor together briefly had no effect on either since they played no where near each other and neither one wanted the ball. Disagree completely. For example, isn't that when Domingo was trapped? |
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bmartin
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,459
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Post by bmartin on Jan 28, 2014 20:15:12 GMT -5
He was trapped but Hayes didn't trap him.
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 15,397
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 28, 2014 20:45:59 GMT -5
I think the posters who claim that Hayes was lost on the court are off base imo especially in his 1st half minutes.
I held off on commenting cause I wanted to re-watch the part of the game when Hayes was in to see exactly how he played.
Obviously he didn’t have any stats but the kid was far from lost out there, he knew where to be and he actually did present himself for passes.
Jabril caused 2 to's and committed his 2nd foul throwing the ball to Cameron on the side line instead of Hayes who was open in the center of the court with his hands up ready for the pass.
The possession when he lost the pass from DSR out of bounds he went thru a nice progression. He flashed to the foul line, didn't get the pass from DSR who passed the ball to Markel on the wing, Hayes went out & set a pick for Markel and followed that up by setting a pick for Bowen and then moved to the open paint area and DSR was late delivering the pass. Could/should he have caught the ball absolutely but he was not lost at all on the possession which tells me that he’s paying attention in practice..
On the defensive possession where he fouled Pinkston, he hedged well to stop Archie from getting in the lane and switched back as soon as DSR called for it. He made a bad play getting to jumpy but things like that come with time.
I hope JT3 continues to find 3 to 5 minutes a game for the kid.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by prhoya on Jan 28, 2014 20:52:39 GMT -5
Nice post, E. I agree.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by prhoya on Jan 28, 2014 20:56:26 GMT -5
He was trapped but Hayes didn't trap him. With the four starters, he wouldn't have been playing while Hayes was in. The idea is not to be playing 3 on 5 offense. Who cares if they are not playing near each other; they should not be on the court at the same time. Lets see how Hayes plays with four starters. |
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Post by detmut on Jan 28, 2014 21:17:20 GMT -5
Just KNEW someone would bring it up; nobody said they'd be world beaters or that they'd make a difference, the point is that Hayes and Domingo should be given the opportunity to play in spots and to get better. Heck, Cameron's getting more comfortable.... Question is why are they lost when they've gotten out there? Pretty much bet that JTIII will either not play them next game. People used to say the same thing about Bowen...this time last year. Make a mistake..."Now everyone, you see why Bowen does not play". I always believed players get better by playing, not sitting on the bench watching. Personally, I always take it easier on the bench players... People on this board disrespect bench players so much...I be like why?? They barely play..but when it comes to starters playing a lot of the same people barely say a word when they struggle. About Domingo & Hayes: My question is if Domingo & Hayes can't play this year on a potential CIT team..then when can the play?? fify |
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,596
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Post by This Just In on Jan 28, 2014 22:09:36 GMT -5
People used to say the same thing about Bowen...this time last year. Make a mistake..."Now everyone, you see why Bowen does not play". I always believed players get better by playing, not sitting on the bench watching. Personally, I always take it easier on the bench players... People on this board disrespect bench players so much...I be like why?? They barely play..but when it comes to starters playing a lot of the same people barely say a word when they struggle. About Domingo & Hayes: My question is if Domingo & Hayes can't play this year on a potential CIT NIT team..then when can the play?? fify You gotta believe. |
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bmartin
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,459
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Post by bmartin on Jan 28, 2014 23:38:38 GMT -5
He was trapped but Hayes didn't trap him. With the four starters, he wouldn't have been playing while Hayes was in. The idea is not to be playing 3 on 5 offense. Who cares if they are not playing near each other; they should not be on the court at the same time. Lets see how Hayes plays with four starters. We play 3 on 5 the whole game except when we play 2 on 5. But when we play 3 on 5 on offense at least the 2 non-threats defend or handle the ball or catch and make passes or rebound or make some contribution. Domingo is a wing. He has to be able to help break the press and not get trapped and stripped or he shouldn't play. Hayes was not his safety valve to avoid the trap. Hayes is a center. He has to defend, rebound, and occasionally catch a pass or he shouldn't play. Even if 4 starters were on the floor, the 5th player can't be someone you should never pass to. Those guys did not play badly but they really didn't contribute anything and the players ahead of them do contribute something. |
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,605
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Post by prhoya on Jan 28, 2014 23:56:34 GMT -5
With the four starters, he wouldn't have been playing while Hayes was in. The idea is not to be playing 3 on 5 offense. Who cares if they are not playing near each other; they should not be on the court at the same time. Lets see how Hayes plays with four starters. We play 3 on 5 the whole game except when we play 2 on 5. But when we play 3 on 5 on offense at least the 2 non-threats defend or handle the ball or catch and make passes or rebound or make some contribution. Domingo is a wing. He has to be able to help break the press and not get trapped and stripped or he shouldn't play. Hayes was not his safety valve to avoid the trap. Hayes is a center. He has to defend, rebound, and occasionally catch a pass or he shouldn't play. Even if 4 starters were on the floor, the 5th player can't be someone you should never pass to. We didn't play 3-on-5 and stayed close to Nova all game. Again, Domingo shouldn't be in with Hayes. Coach should put them in the best situation possible and that is not inserting the two benchwarmers at the same time. The other players were looking to pass it to Hayes, hence the missed pass from DSR while trying to keep his defender on his back. Give him another 3 to 5 minutes. So, are you saying it's the same to have Hayes play with DSR, Markel, Hops and Nate vs. Hayes with Domingo and three starters? |
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dreamhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,259
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Post by dreamhoya on Jan 29, 2014 9:17:02 GMT -5
I think the posters who claim that Hayes was lost on the court are off base imo especially in his 1st half minutes. I held off on commenting cause I wanted to re-watch the part of the game when Hayes was in to see exactly how he played. Obviously he didn’t have any stats but the kid was far from lost out there, he knew where to be and he actually did present himself for passes. Jabril caused 2 to's and committed his 2nd foul throwing the ball to Cameron on the side line instead of Hayes who was open in the center of the court with his hands up ready for the pass. The possession when he lost the pass from DSR out of bounds he went thru a nice progression. He flashed to the foul line, didn't get the pass from DSR who passed the ball to Markel on the wing, Hayes went out & set a pick for Markel and followed that up by setting a pick for Bowen and then moved to the open paint area and DSR was late delivering the pass. Could/should he have caught the ball absolutely but he was not lost at all on the possession which tells me that he’s paying attention in practice.. On the defensive possession where he fouled Pinkston, he hedged well to stop Archie from getting in the lane and switched back as soon as DSR called for it. He made a bad play getting to jumpy but things like that come with time. I hope JT3 continues to find 3 to 5 minutes a game for the kid. That's what I'm saying; to make blanket statements about players being not any good because a) they don't play at all or b) they don't do anything in games in limited minutes is not well thought through. seems to me the guy did a decent job setting screens and that same dribble across the top of the key that all the bigs do. yes, he's not fully confident out there but keep spotting him minutes. his positioning needs to be discussed - he's too far from the basket when shots go up to rebound effectively. spend extra time with Othella. |
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seaweed
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,736
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Post by seaweed on Jan 29, 2014 10:24:57 GMT -5
He was trapped but Hayes didn't trap him. With the four starters, he wouldn't have been playing while Hayes was in. The idea is not to be playing 3 on 5 offense. Who cares if they are not playing near each other; they should not be on the court at the same time. Lets see how Hayes plays with four starters. Questions with regard to the "play the scrubs with the starters" concept - 1) at practice, the starters probably practice more together and likewise the bench spends more time playing with each other. If III has reason to believe two guys might fit in at the same time versus just one at a time in succession, could it be based on something he sees in practice where they work well together? not saying they did (nor am I saying either didn't play well), but one viable reason could be that he likes how the pair plays, or maybe just that one of them plays better when the other is also in. 2) how many total minutes is the team "handicapped" with its least productive players in the game? if you can steal 2 minutes each at the same time, you have your regular guys out there the other two minutes vs being "limited" for 4 minutes as each plays two minutes successively 3) please stop referring to "3 on 5" and "2 on 5" situations. We play "5 on 8" at best, "2 (or so) on 8" at worst, Your Hoya Paranoya is underperforming:) |
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