RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,134
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Post by RBHoya on Dec 1, 2022 9:33:39 GMT -5
The three Center class was an absolute bust. So was the one after it, unfortunately.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by prhoya on Dec 1, 2022 9:59:30 GMT -5
Ok I promised I was going to empty the clip given a bunch of Hoya fans couldn't watch. And...here...we...go...: - The runs in the game are obviously what stood out, but to me it's really this. I have never seen a teams defensive effort be so contingent on how their offense is doing. I've played on some pretty good / well coached basketball teams, and have been on some bad ones as well unfortunately. But the one consistent message I've always gotten is defensive effort is the table stakes to be on the court. Shots might fall, they might not. But if you're not busting it on defense, you're on the pine. Doesn't matter if you're the star or not. I just don't think that's the culture that's been established. Ewing yells about the defense, but he doesn't pull anyone for it (as far as I can see). And when you play lackadaisical defense, you're capable of losing to anyone. And when shots are falling and the team is engaged, you can see that they're capable of giving effort and then they go on a huge run. That plus....
- Our transition defense is truly terrible. No ability to find shooters in transition. So when we miss or turn it over, we don't get our defense set, it snowballs. We give up a basket and then have to grind against a set half court defense and it just becomes self fulfilling
- Overall, I really thought our offensive gameplan and preparation was generally solid. For most of the game I saw decent ball movement, we were prepared for where the traps would be, we made skip passes / extra passes and because of that we were able to generate more 3 point looks than we normally do. Of course the turnovers were a problem and this team needs 2nd chance points to survive that weren't there, but I didn't feel like the team was surprised by what they saw. Primo did a good job snaking some side ball screens to get into the middle of the court and generate looks for his teammates etc.
- And on Primo...I almost feel like it's Dante Harris redux. The MO of the fanbase is to blame the centers for the defense and the point guards for the offense. Last year Primo had a 92.2 O Rating on 25% usage, this year he's at 102 with 25% usage. What exactly were we expecting here? He's basically playing the whole game (will get to that shortly) and has the ball in his hands. He's actually been short changed on some assists when we miss bunnies or open shots or get fouled. Yes there's some hero ball moments that we don't need. But honestly I don't know what we were expecting.
- On Primo's minutes, screaming bench Primo and play Anglin is just missing the point entirely. There is not a backup point guard on this roster. Anglin is not a PG, Murray is not, Heath is not (which is probably the most disappointing). When Primo gets his 2 minutes of rest, its a disaster out there. Murray has to walk the ball up, and we can't get into our offense. Last night Murray walked the ball up, dribbled himself into a side pick and roll, and then dribbled it out of bounds. Primo comes back in immediately. You even saw Anglin play a little with Primo last night because Ewing realized it. The answer is probably that Anglin needs to eat into Heath's minutes, but screaming about Primo misses the point. We can bemoan Dante not being here but it is what it is and the majority of the fanbase trashed him anyway (I had to defend Dante too many times last year to count)
- Ewing realized what Turgeon quickly figured out with Q last year....it just doesn't work. He needs to be truly dominant on the offensive end to justify what you have to do defensively on the court. And he either struggles against guys his size who single him up, or he can't execute against a double. He's not a lob threat as a rim runner. He honestly made some ok passes out of the double last night, where he would've been credited with a hockey assist, but there's just too many turnovers. And the defense is hopeless. I've advocated for drop coverage but honestly it doesnt matter. He doesn't do enough to make the ball handler hesitate. Any empty side ball screen is a bucket.
- Mozone had his best offensive game, but he's not a power forward at this level. It was great to see him knock down shots, honestly his slump was unsustainable for someone who hit 38% on a large number of attempts even at lower levels. And I haven't had any issues with the general quality of his attempts, they've been catch and shoot in rhythm type shots. They were bound to fall. But the defense just doesnt work with him at the 4 (regardless of who he's paired with). If Akok is forced to help and try to block a shot or switch on the perimeter, even if the first shot misses they're getting the offensive rebound. And Mozone wasn't really on the court for the big run because....
- Brad E. paired with Akok changed the entire complexion of the game. The lineup that stormed back was really Primo / Murray / Heath / Akok / Brad. With Brad on the court, we at least had a chance to compete on the glass on missed shots. Ewing was also comfortable letting Brad hard hedge screens. While I've criticized that tactic in the past, it did seem to work last night. I'm not sure it's sustainable but Brad was able to get out there and recover and everyone else mostly stayed home. He had a monster block and brought an energy level the team needed. For those claiming the run was because TT took their foot off the glass, I'm pretty sure you dont let a 21 point lead get to within 1 point because you're bored. That lineup had something other lineups lacked, and it worked. Is it sustainable? Why are we only trying Brad out in game 8? No idea, but they definitely found out something.
- THIS GAME, IN THIS ENVIRONMENT, IS WHY YOU SHOULD SCHEDULE BETTER. And Ewing didnt even schedule this game. But the team learned way more about itself last night than it had in the first 7. They were punched in the mouth, in a hostile environment, and had to decide whether they were going to turtle or fight. And they punched back. They had issues down the stretch and I'll hit minutes distribution as my last point, but if you play more games like this you figure out what you have much quicker than trying to just pad the schedule with wins
- This roster just isn't constructed well enough. You can criticize Primo minutes, but I dont think there's a viable alternative. Same thing with Akok, there's nobody on the bench who can do half of what he's doing to keep us afloat on defense. And Murray showed last night why he's regarded as the best overall player. So I just don't know what Ewing can practically do with the minutes (and yes of course he built the roster). But those three are going to simply have to play heavy minutes, Riley was out last night so maybe he can help save Murray a few, but otherwise you have Riley / Mozone / Bristol with too similar of a skillset and not enough depth at PF / C and PG. And Heath not being able to play PG makes him feel a little duplicative with Murray. The Primo / Heath / Murray combo just doesn't feel great or effective. So I don't know where you go from here.
Ok thats officially my longest post ever. Hoya Saxa
Thanks for taking the time. As to personnel, I think you're missing Bass to play some minor rotation minutes at the 4. The most athletic player (and with enough size) could be instructed to play how the coach wanted (does the coach know what he wants?). You cannot tell me that such a proven athlete cannot play some spot minutes. He's not a stiff or an uncoordinated bench player like we've had at some point or another. If the staff doesn't feel he's ready offensively, who cares with 4 shoot-first players around him... He could be the best rebounder on the team today and we desperately need rebounding. Let him loose! But no, Coach 0-20 knows best!
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vv83
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by vv83 on Dec 1, 2022 10:02:39 GMT -5
Excellent post, thank you. I would add that there are some signs this team is learning it’s strengths and weaknesses and showing some growth. If they can shorten the stretches where the other team makes a run with better defensive intensity and lengthen the runs they have with great ball movement and open shots, they could have some good wins against good Big East teams. Part of that growth and learning process I needs to be Ewing finding a rotation that does not have key players either exhausted or on the bench because they fouled out at the end of close games. Bills, let's say they get this all right and figure out the ball movement, hero ball, 3 point D, etc. If we enter BE play at 6-5 with wins over Cuse & South Carolina (we are definitely losing to Siena), we are at best a 7 to 8 win team against big east competition IF WE IMPROVE. Give us 9 for argument sake and we are at 15-16. We aren't a tourney team or NIT team. Follow me now. We then proceed to lose a couple kids to transfer or ridiculous pro ambitions which always happens and we lose Mozone & Wahab as they are listed as grad transfers & a senior. We bring back some combination of Heath, Spears, Akok, Ezewiro, Bass, Anglin, Bristol, Riley, Mutombo & Murray (minus 2 of these guys I am sure). And we have the same staff. Are we really supposed to think that 23/24 is going to be markedly better? At what point do you cut bait on the guys who won't be here next year in interest of roster development? We didn't do it last year and that resulted in us bringing back no one who is contributing to the roster this year in a meaningful way right now. I feel like we are on a Tiger Death March waiting out the end of a contract rather then truly building towards the future. Patrick is already 60. So we have him on contract to age 63. Kevin Nickleberry is 58. We have no coach in waiting nor do we have a distinguished culture or development process in place. What are we even doing? It does seem that we are just killing time until Ewing's contract runs out. We are going to be a "last resort" for transfers looking for major conference playing time and HS prospects with no other solid major conference offers. You can't even begin to build a program that way. You might be able to field a team that's more competitive than what we put on the court last season, but not all that much better. Just a hopeless situation all the way around. Especially when it seems likely that the next coach will be someone with Thompson family connections, and that Ronny will still be part of the program. Even a coaching change does not offer a whole lot of hope. A new University President is probably the only change that might offer some hope for the future. Hopefully our next President will understand the potential the basketball program has for lifting the entire University, and will hire a real, non-Thompson connected coach who is given full power to rebuild the program from scratch.
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bigskyhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,094
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Post by bigskyhoya on Dec 1, 2022 10:05:09 GMT -5
Excellent post, thank you. I would add that there are some signs this team is learning it’s strengths and weaknesses and showing some growth. If they can shorten the stretches where the other team makes a run with better defensive intensity and lengthen the runs they have with great ball movement and open shots, they could have some good wins against good Big East teams. Part of that growth and learning process I needs to be Ewing finding a rotation that does not have key players either exhausted or on the bench because they fouled out at the end of close games. Bills, let's say they get this all right and figure out the ball movement, hero ball, 3 point D, etc. If we enter BE play at 6-5 with wins over Cuse & South Carolina (we are definitely losing to Siena), we are at best a 7 to 8 win team against big east competition IF WE IMPROVE. Give us 9 for argument sake and we are at 15-16. We aren't a tourney team or NIT team. Follow me now. We then proceed to lose a couple kids to transfer or ridiculous pro ambitions which always happens and we lose Mozone & Wahab as they are listed as grad transfers & a senior. We bring back some combination of Heath, Spears, Akok, Ezewiro, Bass, Anglin, Bristol, Riley, Mutombo & Murray (minus 2 of these guys I am sure). And we have the same staff. Are we really supposed to think that 23/24 is going to be markedly better? At what point do you cut bait on the guys who won't be here next year in interest of roster development? We didn't do it last year and that resulted in us bringing back no one who is contributing to the roster this year in a meaningful way right now. I feel like we are on a Tiger Death March waiting out the end of a contract rather then truly building towards the future. Patrick is already 60. So we have him on contract to age 63. Kevin Nickleberry is 58. We have no coach in waiting nor do we have a distinguished culture or development process in place. What are we even doing? This is exactly how i see it. Groundhog Day with virtually no chance to escape the downward cycle without a clean break.
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vv83
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,328
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Post by vv83 on Dec 1, 2022 10:06:26 GMT -5
Ok I promised I was going to empty the clip given a bunch of Hoya fans couldn't watch. And...here...we...go...: - The runs in the game are obviously what stood out, but to me it's really this. I have never seen a teams defensive effort be so contingent on how their offense is doing. I've played on some pretty good / well coached basketball teams, and have been on some bad ones as well unfortunately. But the one consistent message I've always gotten is defensive effort is the table stakes to be on the court. Shots might fall, they might not. But if you're not busting it on defense, you're on the pine. Doesn't matter if you're the star or not. I just don't think that's the culture that's been established. Ewing yells about the defense, but he doesn't pull anyone for it (as far as I can see). And when you play lackadaisical defense, you're capable of losing to anyone. And when shots are falling and the team is engaged, you can see that they're capable of giving effort and then they go on a huge run. That plus....
- Our transition defense is truly terrible. No ability to find shooters in transition. So when we miss or turn it over, we don't get our defense set, it snowballs. We give up a basket and then have to grind against a set half court defense and it just becomes self fulfilling
- Overall, I really thought our offensive gameplan and preparation was generally solid. For most of the game I saw decent ball movement, we were prepared for where the traps would be, we made skip passes / extra passes and because of that we were able to generate more 3 point looks than we normally do. Of course the turnovers were a problem and this team needs 2nd chance points to survive that weren't there, but I didn't feel like the team was surprised by what they saw. Primo did a good job snaking some side ball screens to get into the middle of the court and generate looks for his teammates etc.
- And on Primo...I almost feel like it's Dante Harris redux. The MO of the fanbase is to blame the centers for the defense and the point guards for the offense. Last year Primo had a 92.2 O Rating on 25% usage, this year he's at 102 with 25% usage. What exactly were we expecting here? He's basically playing the whole game (will get to that shortly) and has the ball in his hands. He's actually been short changed on some assists when we miss bunnies or open shots or get fouled. Yes there's some hero ball moments that we don't need. But honestly I don't know what we were expecting.
- On Primo's minutes, screaming bench Primo and play Anglin is just missing the point entirely. There is not a backup point guard on this roster. Anglin is not a PG, Murray is not, Heath is not (which is probably the most disappointing). When Primo gets his 2 minutes of rest, its a disaster out there. Murray has to walk the ball up, and we can't get into our offense. Last night Murray walked the ball up, dribbled himself into a side pick and roll, and then dribbled it out of bounds. Primo comes back in immediately. You even saw Anglin play a little with Primo last night because Ewing realized it. The answer is probably that Anglin needs to eat into Heath's minutes, but screaming about Primo misses the point. We can bemoan Dante not being here but it is what it is and the majority of the fanbase trashed him anyway (I had to defend Dante too many times last year to count)
- Ewing realized what Turgeon quickly figured out with Q last year....it just doesn't work. He needs to be truly dominant on the offensive end to justify what you have to do defensively on the court. And he either struggles against guys his size who single him up, or he can't execute against a double. He's not a lob threat as a rim runner. He honestly made some ok passes out of the double last night, where he would've been credited with a hockey assist, but there's just too many turnovers. And the defense is hopeless. I've advocated for drop coverage but honestly it doesnt matter. He doesn't do enough to make the ball handler hesitate. Any empty side ball screen is a bucket.
- Mozone had his best offensive game, but he's not a power forward at this level. It was great to see him knock down shots, honestly his slump was unsustainable for someone who hit 38% on a large number of attempts even at lower levels. And I haven't had any issues with the general quality of his attempts, they've been catch and shoot in rhythm type shots. They were bound to fall. But the defense just doesnt work with him at the 4 (regardless of who he's paired with). If Akok is forced to help and try to block a shot or switch on the perimeter, even if the first shot misses they're getting the offensive rebound. And Mozone wasn't really on the court for the big run because....
- Brad E. paired with Akok changed the entire complexion of the game. The lineup that stormed back was really Primo / Murray / Heath / Akok / Brad. With Brad on the court, we at least had a chance to compete on the glass on missed shots. Ewing was also comfortable letting Brad hard hedge screens. While I've criticized that tactic in the past, it did seem to work last night. I'm not sure it's sustainable but Brad was able to get out there and recover and everyone else mostly stayed home. He had a monster block and brought an energy level the team needed. For those claiming the run was because TT took their foot off the glass, I'm pretty sure you dont let a 21 point lead get to within 1 point because you're bored. That lineup had something other lineups lacked, and it worked. Is it sustainable? Why are we only trying Brad out in game 8? No idea, but they definitely found out something.
- THIS GAME, IN THIS ENVIRONMENT, IS WHY YOU SHOULD SCHEDULE BETTER. And Ewing didnt even schedule this game. But the team learned way more about itself last night than it had in the first 7. They were punched in the mouth, in a hostile environment, and had to decide whether they were going to turtle or fight. And they punched back. They had issues down the stretch and I'll hit minutes distribution as my last point, but if you play more games like this you figure out what you have much quicker than trying to just pad the schedule with wins
- This roster just isn't constructed well enough. You can criticize Primo minutes, but I dont think there's a viable alternative. Same thing with Akok, there's nobody on the bench who can do half of what he's doing to keep us afloat on defense. And Murray showed last night why he's regarded as the best overall player. So I just don't know what Ewing can practically do with the minutes (and yes of course he built the roster). But those three are going to simply have to play heavy minutes, Riley was out last night so maybe he can help save Murray a few, but otherwise you have Riley / Mozone / Bristol with too similar of a skillset and not enough depth at PF / C and PG. And Heath not being able to play PG makes him feel a little duplicative with Murray. The Primo / Heath / Murray combo just doesn't feel great or effective. So I don't know where you go from here.
Ok thats officially my longest post ever. Hoya Saxa
Thanks for taking the time. As to personnel, I think you're missing Bass to play some minor rotation minutes at the 4. The most athletic player (and with enough size) could be instructed to play how the coach wanted (does the coach know what he wants?). You cannot tell me that such a proven athlete cannot play some spot minutes. He's not a stiff or an uncoordinated bench player like we've had at some point or another. If the staff doesn't feel he's ready offensively, who cares with 4 shoot-first players around him... He could be the best rebounder on the team today and we desperately need rebounding. Let him loose! But no, Coach 0-20 knows best! Great point on Bass. He's a smart player - he played sounder, smarter basketball than anyone else on the team in Kenner games this summer. Which is not easy to do in the loosely structured Kenner games. Bass' issue is skill development. But he can defend, rebound, run the court, and keep the ball moving in the half court offense. He is very likely our best backup 4. He is kind of like a less skilled slightly shorter version of Akok in terms of his athletic profile and smart, disciplined play. He'll probably be a net positive even if he never takes a shot other than on putbacks and in transition.
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conshyhoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 801
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Post by conshyhoya on Dec 1, 2022 10:08:29 GMT -5
Ok I promised I was going to empty the clip given a bunch of Hoya fans couldn't watch. And...here...we...go...: - The runs in the game are obviously what stood out, but to me it's really this. I have never seen a teams defensive effort be so contingent on how their offense is doing. I've played on some pretty good / well coached basketball teams, and have been on some bad ones as well unfortunately. But the one consistent message I've always gotten is defensive effort is the table stakes to be on the court. Shots might fall, they might not. But if you're not busting it on defense, you're on the pine. Doesn't matter if you're the star or not. I just don't think that's the culture that's been established. Ewing yells about the defense, but he doesn't pull anyone for it (as far as I can see). And when you play lackadaisical defense, you're capable of losing to anyone. And when shots are falling and the team is engaged, you can see that they're capable of giving effort and then they go on a huge run. That plus....
- Our transition defense is truly terrible. No ability to find shooters in transition. So when we miss or turn it over, we don't get our defense set, it snowballs. We give up a basket and then have to grind against a set half court defense and it just becomes self fulfilling
- Overall, I really thought our offensive gameplan and preparation was generally solid. For most of the game I saw decent ball movement, we were prepared for where the traps would be, we made skip passes / extra passes and because of that we were able to generate more 3 point looks than we normally do. Of course the turnovers were a problem and this team needs 2nd chance points to survive that weren't there, but I didn't feel like the team was surprised by what they saw. Primo did a good job snaking some side ball screens to get into the middle of the court and generate looks for his teammates etc.
- And on Primo...I almost feel like it's Dante Harris redux. The MO of the fanbase is to blame the centers for the defense and the point guards for the offense. Last year Primo had a 92.2 O Rating on 25% usage, this year he's at 102 with 25% usage. What exactly were we expecting here? He's basically playing the whole game (will get to that shortly) and has the ball in his hands. He's actually been short changed on some assists when we miss bunnies or open shots or get fouled. Yes there's some hero ball moments that we don't need. But honestly I don't know what we were expecting.
- On Primo's minutes, screaming bench Primo and play Anglin is just missing the point entirely. There is not a backup point guard on this roster. Anglin is not a PG, Murray is not, Heath is not (which is probably the most disappointing). When Primo gets his 2 minutes of rest, its a disaster out there. Murray has to walk the ball up, and we can't get into our offense. Last night Murray walked the ball up, dribbled himself into a side pick and roll, and then dribbled it out of bounds. Primo comes back in immediately. You even saw Anglin play a little with Primo last night because Ewing realized it. The answer is probably that Anglin needs to eat into Heath's minutes, but screaming about Primo misses the point. We can bemoan Dante not being here but it is what it is and the majority of the fanbase trashed him anyway (I had to defend Dante too many times last year to count)
- Ewing realized what Turgeon quickly figured out with Q last year....it just doesn't work. He needs to be truly dominant on the offensive end to justify what you have to do defensively on the court. And he either struggles against guys his size who single him up, or he can't execute against a double. He's not a lob threat as a rim runner. He honestly made some ok passes out of the double last night, where he would've been credited with a hockey assist, but there's just too many turnovers. And the defense is hopeless. I've advocated for drop coverage but honestly it doesnt matter. He doesn't do enough to make the ball handler hesitate. Any empty side ball screen is a bucket.
- Mozone had his best offensive game, but he's not a power forward at this level. It was great to see him knock down shots, honestly his slump was unsustainable for someone who hit 38% on a large number of attempts even at lower levels. And I haven't had any issues with the general quality of his attempts, they've been catch and shoot in rhythm type shots. They were bound to fall. But the defense just doesnt work with him at the 4 (regardless of who he's paired with). If Akok is forced to help and try to block a shot or switch on the perimeter, even if the first shot misses they're getting the offensive rebound. And Mozone wasn't really on the court for the big run because....
- Brad E. paired with Akok changed the entire complexion of the game. The lineup that stormed back was really Primo / Murray / Heath / Akok / Brad. With Brad on the court, we at least had a chance to compete on the glass on missed shots. Ewing was also comfortable letting Brad hard hedge screens. While I've criticized that tactic in the past, it did seem to work last night. I'm not sure it's sustainable but Brad was able to get out there and recover and everyone else mostly stayed home. He had a monster block and brought an energy level the team needed. For those claiming the run was because TT took their foot off the glass, I'm pretty sure you dont let a 21 point lead get to within 1 point because you're bored. That lineup had something other lineups lacked, and it worked. Is it sustainable? Why are we only trying Brad out in game 8? No idea, but they definitely found out something.
- THIS GAME, IN THIS ENVIRONMENT, IS WHY YOU SHOULD SCHEDULE BETTER. And Ewing didnt even schedule this game. But the team learned way more about itself last night than it had in the first 7. They were punched in the mouth, in a hostile environment, and had to decide whether they were going to turtle or fight. And they punched back. They had issues down the stretch and I'll hit minutes distribution as my last point, but if you play more games like this you figure out what you have much quicker than trying to just pad the schedule with wins
- This roster just isn't constructed well enough. You can criticize Primo minutes, but I dont think there's a viable alternative. Same thing with Akok, there's nobody on the bench who can do half of what he's doing to keep us afloat on defense. And Murray showed last night why he's regarded as the best overall player. So I just don't know what Ewing can practically do with the minutes (and yes of course he built the roster). But those three are going to simply have to play heavy minutes, Riley was out last night so maybe he can help save Murray a few, but otherwise you have Riley / Mozone / Bristol with too similar of a skillset and not enough depth at PF / C and PG. And Heath not being able to play PG makes him feel a little duplicative with Murray. The Primo / Heath / Murray combo just doesn't feel great or effective. So I don't know where you go from here.
Ok thats officially my longest post ever. Hoya Saxa
Great write up. Since Heath was off and Mozone was hitting I wonder what a lineup with Spears, Murray, Mozone, Akok and Brad would look like. Another thing I wonder is why Bristol doesn't get more time especially when we are down a player and we know he can hit 3s, he defends well and can rebound. He can definitely spell Heath and Murray to give them some rest. I doubt we see Dante but last night shows why we could really use him. I was also someone who had to defend him last year but looking at Primo's numbers Dante isn't much of a drop off if he is at all and Primo right now has way more talent around him. You put Primo on last year's team and I'm sure he is forcing it even more.
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hoyazeke
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,817
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Post by hoyazeke on Dec 1, 2022 10:18:23 GMT -5
Great post rhw. I didn't get to see the game last night but I hoped for the team to show some fight. The only pushback that I have is the construction of the roster being poor. I think the roster was perfectly constructed until DH left the team. I hate that Dante left because his backup PG has already costed this team multiple games. I'm also glad to hear that Brad finally showed some promise. I thought in the preseason that he was the key to a tourney type year because of the lack of mobile bigs.
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rhw485
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 742
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Post by rhw485 on Dec 1, 2022 10:20:49 GMT -5
Thanks for taking the time. As to personnel, I think you're missing Bass to play some minor rotation minutes at the 4. The most athletic player (and with enough size) could be instructed to play how the coach wanted (does the coach know what he wants?). You cannot tell me that such a proven athlete cannot play some spot minutes. He's not a stiff or an uncoordinated bench player like we've had at some point or another. If the staff doesn't feel he's ready offensively, who cares with 4 shoot-first players around him... He could be the best rebounder on the team today and we desperately need rebounding. Let him loose! But no, Coach 0-20 knows best! Yes agreed great point on Bass. I've almost written him off at this point because if he hasn't even gotten a taste the staff must feel he's not ready. But I think that's what's so awful about this season. Either play a bad schedule and be prepared to really try stuff and see what you have. Or go play a great schedule and at least I can live with it. Playing a terrible schedule, not trying out different lineups, and still losing those games without seeing what you have in every scholarship player is very frustrating. Hopefully he gets a chance but I'm doubtful at this point
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rhw485
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by rhw485 on Dec 1, 2022 10:30:42 GMT -5
Great post rhw. I didn't get to see the game last night but I hoped for the team to show some fight. The only pushback that I have is the construction of the roster being poor. I think the roster was perfectly constructed until DH left the team. I hate that Dante left because his backup PG has already costed this team multiple games. I'm also glad to hear that Brad finally showed some promise. I thought in the preseason that he was the key to a tourney type year because of the lack of mobile bigs. It's fair on the Dante point, I guess it depends on what do you think you have with Mutombo / Ezewiro / Bass? At this point, Ewing hasn't played them a ton so you simultaneously have no depth in the front court and forcing guys to play up spots while not having a backup pg (which I blame less on Ewing although we'll never know why Dante really left) and struggling to find minutes for Bristol / Riley (i know he was hurt last night just more generally) when they've shown they have something. I guess the way I think about it is in the NBA you'd be trading some of your wing depth for a backup 4/5 every day even if you had Dante. Which just implies a roster imbalance from my seat.
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hoya9797
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,206
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Post by hoya9797 on Dec 1, 2022 10:31:28 GMT -5
Great post rhw. I didn't get to see the game last night but I hoped for the team to show some fight. The only pushback that I have is the construction of the roster being poor. I think the roster was perfectly constructed until DH left the team. I hate that Dante left because his backup PG has already costed this team multiple games. I'm also glad to hear that Brad finally showed some promise. I thought in the preseason that he was the key to a tourney type year because of the lack of mobile bigs. Perfectly constructed? This is like Tre King all over again. Everything would be fine for Pat Ewing if only one mediocre piece of the puzzle was there.
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bills
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 236
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Post by bills on Dec 1, 2022 10:41:29 GMT -5
Excellent post, thank you. I would add that there are some signs this team is learning it’s strengths and weaknesses and showing some growth. If they can shorten the stretches where the other team makes a run with better defensive intensity and lengthen the runs they have with great ball movement and open shots, they could have some good wins against good Big East teams. Part of that growth and learning process I needs to be Ewing finding a rotation that does not have key players either exhausted or on the bench because they fouled out at the end of close games. Bills, let's say they get this all right and figure out the ball movement, hero ball, 3 point D, etc. If we enter BE play at 6-5 with wins over Cuse & South Carolina (we are definitely losing to Siena), we are at best a 7 to 8 win team against big east competition IF WE IMPROVE. Give us 9 for argument sake and we are at 15-16. We aren't a tourney team or NIT team. Follow me now. We then proceed to lose a couple kids to transfer or ridiculous pro ambitions which always happens and we lose Mozone & Wahab as they are listed as grad transfers & a senior. We bring back some combination of Heath, Spears, Akok, Ezewiro, Bass, Anglin, Bristol, Riley, Mutombo & Murray (minus 2 of these guys I am sure). And we have the same staff. Are we really supposed to think that 23/24 is going to be markedly better? At what point do you cut bait on the guys who won't be here next year in interest of roster development? We didn't do it last year and that resulted in us bringing back no one who is contributing to the roster this year in a meaningful way right now. I feel like we are on a Tiger Death March waiting out the end of a contract rather then truly building towards the future. Patrick is already 60. So we have him on contract to age 63. Kevin Nickleberry is 58. We have no coach in waiting nor do we have a distinguished culture or development process in place. What are we even doing? All of that is conjecture and the end results could be much better, or much worse. I plan to keep my focus tactical with the focus on the last two games played and the next one to be played. Any coaching changes will come after the season is over and IMHO it is a waste of time to talk about them now. There are multiple threads on that topic for those who want to continue to beat that drum but I will just continue to ignore those threads. None of our upcoming games have been lost yet and none of them are guaranteed wins. Let’s enjoy those games and argue over what we did well and where we need improvement.
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by calhoya on Dec 1, 2022 10:49:03 GMT -5
Great post rhw. I didn't get to see the game last night but I hoped for the team to show some fight. The only pushback that I have is the construction of the roster being poor. I think the roster was perfectly constructed until DH left the team. I hate that Dante left because his backup PG has already costed this team multiple games. I'm also glad to hear that Brad finally showed some promise. I thought in the preseason that he was the key to a tourney type year because of the lack of mobile bigs. It's fair on the Dante point, I guess it depends on what do you think you have with Mutombo / Ezewiro / Bass? At this point, Ewing hasn't played them a ton so you simultaneously have no depth in the front court and forcing guys to play up spots while not having a backup pg (which I blame less on Ewing although we'll never know why Dante really left) and struggling to find minutes for Bristol / Riley (i know he was hurt last night just more generally) when they've shown they have something. I guess the way I think about it is in the NBA you'd be trading some of your wing depth for a backup 4/5 every day even if you had Dante. Which just implies a roster imbalance from my seat. I certainly understand your point about Spears being the best and perhaps only option for the starting PG minutes. However, as one who thinks he should be benched temporarily for going rogue or playing selfishly, I disagree that this is not feasible. While neither Murray nor Heath are acceptable alternatives as the PG over long courses of the game, both can certainly handle the duties for short stretches while the coaches settle Primo and refocus him on his role. He can be a scoring guard, and his penetration into the lane can open up shots for others if he makes the pass. But when he starts dribbling around the perimeter and stops the ball movement or pulls up for shots 5 feet behind the arc early in the shot clock, or fails to hustle back on defense he needs to be pulled. It can be for a very brief period because I think that the issue is one of getting him to settle down and not punishing him. Primo is a high risk, high reward player and his play on the court can determine the outcome of these games. He needs to be managed by the coaching staff. The same is true for the other players, as well.
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hoyazeke
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by hoyazeke on Dec 1, 2022 10:51:04 GMT -5
Great post rhw. I didn't get to see the game last night but I hoped for the team to show some fight. The only pushback that I have is the construction of the roster being poor. I think the roster was perfectly constructed until DH left the team. I hate that Dante left because his backup PG has already costed this team multiple games. I'm also glad to hear that Brad finally showed some promise. I thought in the preseason that he was the key to a tourney type year because of the lack of mobile bigs. Perfectly constructed? This is like Tre King all over again. Everything would be fine for Pat Ewing if only one mediocre piece of the puzzle was there. So how many teams do you see with more than 2 quality PGs? Tre was expected to be the 2nd scoring option at minimum on last year's team. We just need Dante as a quality backup or a dependable replacement if bad Primo shows up.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 1, 2022 11:02:01 GMT -5
The three Center class was an absolute bust. The Malcolm bashing starts again. You have to make up your mind whether you are okay with him being team manager or want him to be on the roster again.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Dec 1, 2022 11:20:35 GMT -5
The three Center class was an absolute bust. The Malcolm bashing starts again. You have to make up your mind whether you are okay with him being team manager or want him to be on the roster again. You can't fault Malcolm for accepting a scholarship to Georgetown. You have to fault the coach who gave him that scholarship, who had to have thought 1) that Wilson was better than he was; or 2) that he could develop Wilson into being a scholarship-worthy player. The coach failed on one or both fronts. That's not Malcolm's fault.
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rhw485
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Post by rhw485 on Dec 1, 2022 11:24:57 GMT -5
I certainly understand your point about Spears being the best and perhaps only option for the starting PG minutes. However, as one who thinks he should be benched temporarily for going rogue or playing selfishly, I disagree that this is not feasible. While neither Murray nor Heath are acceptable alternatives as the PG over long courses of the game, both can certainly handle the duties for short stretches while the coaches settle Primo and refocus him on his role. He can be a scoring guard, and his penetration into the lane can open up shots for others if he makes the pass. But when he starts dribbling around the perimeter and stops the ball movement or pulls up for shots 5 feet behind the arc early in the shot clock, or fails to hustle back on defense he needs to be pulled. It can be for a very brief period because I think that the issue is one of getting him to settle down and not punishing him. Primo is a high risk, high reward player and his play on the court can determine the outcome of these games. He needs to be managed by the coaching staff. The same is true for the other players, as well. I do want to clarify one thing on Spears. There are some plays he makes that literally drive me crazy, and in a perfect world he would be benched for a few minutes to figure it out. The pullup 2 and hero 3 after we got within 1 point are absolutely awful decisions with the game on the line. Ideally 30-32 minutes would be great and there are definitely team chemistry issues when some players are held to different standards in terms of being pulled immediately for mistakes. All I ask of you is to really focus in on the minutes when Spears is off the court. Last night they simply weren't survivable in my opinion and I understand in that context why Ewing is doing it. Maybe against a less aggressive defense it's more feasible
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 1, 2022 11:37:10 GMT -5
I certainly understand your point about Spears being the best and perhaps only option for the starting PG minutes. However, as one who thinks he should be benched temporarily for going rogue or playing selfishly, I disagree that this is not feasible. While neither Murray nor Heath are acceptable alternatives as the PG over long courses of the game, both can certainly handle the duties for short stretches while the coaches settle Primo and refocus him on his role. He can be a scoring guard, and his penetration into the lane can open up shots for others if he makes the pass. But when he starts dribbling around the perimeter and stops the ball movement or pulls up for shots 5 feet behind the arc early in the shot clock, or fails to hustle back on defense he needs to be pulled. It can be for a very brief period because I think that the issue is one of getting him to settle down and not punishing him. Primo is a high risk, high reward player and his play on the court can determine the outcome of these games. He needs to be managed by the coaching staff. The same is true for the other players, as well. I do want to clarify one thing on Spears. There are some plays he makes that literally drive me crazy, and in a perfect world he would be benched for a few minutes to figure it out. The pullup 2 and hero 3 after we got within 1 point are absolutely awful decisions with the game on the line. Ideally 30-32 minutes would be great and there are definitely team chemistry issues when some players are held to different standards in terms of being pulled immediately for mistakes. All I ask of you is to really focus in on the minutes when Spears is off the court. Last night they simply weren't survivable in my opinion and I understand in that context why Ewing is doing it. Maybe against a less aggressive defense it's more feasible This is why you shouldn't have an offense that doesn't fit your roster. I could even make the argument that the style of lead guard PE likes most aren't good for the offense he prefers. I'll also add that it wasn't a good idea to publicly announce a position battle between the the 2 players you needed most
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conshyhoya
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Post by conshyhoya on Dec 1, 2022 11:43:10 GMT -5
It's fair on the Dante point, I guess it depends on what do you think you have with Mutombo / Ezewiro / Bass? At this point, Ewing hasn't played them a ton so you simultaneously have no depth in the front court and forcing guys to play up spots while not having a backup pg (which I blame less on Ewing although we'll never know why Dante really left) and struggling to find minutes for Bristol / Riley (i know he was hurt last night just more generally) when they've shown they have something. I guess the way I think about it is in the NBA you'd be trading some of your wing depth for a backup 4/5 every day even if you had Dante. Which just implies a roster imbalance from my seat. I certainly understand your point about Spears being the best and perhaps only option for the starting PG minutes. However, as one who thinks he should be benched temporarily for going rogue or playing selfishly, I disagree that this is not feasible. While neither Murray nor Heath are acceptable alternatives as the PG over long courses of the game, both can certainly handle the duties for short stretches while the coaches settle Primo and refocus him on his role. He can be a scoring guard, and his penetration into the lane can open up shots for others if he makes the pass. But when he starts dribbling around the perimeter and stops the ball movement or pulls up for shots 5 feet behind the arc early in the shot clock, or fails to hustle back on defense he needs to be pulled. It can be for a very brief period because I think that the issue is one of getting him to settle down and not punishing him. Primo is a high risk, high reward player and his play on the court can determine the outcome of these games. He needs to be managed by the coaching staff. The same is true for the other players, as well. Sadly I don't think he is going rogue as I think it is the exact opposite and this is how Ewing wants him to play. Go back and listen to Primo's interviews from earlier this year and he specifically says how Ewing has asked him to play and it was said twice in different interviews. When Akinjo didn't listen to Ewing, Ewing mentioned he went off script. I haven't heard that about Primo yet.
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95hoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by 95hoya on Dec 1, 2022 11:43:37 GMT -5
One piece away from perfect roster construction…hmmm I’d trade the entire roster if I could just pull random names out of a bag. I’d have a better chance of fielding a better team.
We added guys from losing programs/losing situations for the most part. The coach doesn’t create a great culture, and the type of players we bring in contribute to those issues.
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miracles87
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,150
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Post by miracles87 on Dec 1, 2022 12:32:33 GMT -5
Ok I promised I was going to empty the clip given a bunch of Hoya fans couldn't watch. And...here...we...go...: - The runs in the game are obviously what stood out, but to me it's really this. I have never seen a teams defensive effort be so contingent on how their offense is doing. I've played on some pretty good / well coached basketball teams, and have been on some bad ones as well unfortunately. But the one consistent message I've always gotten is defensive effort is the table stakes to be on the court. Shots might fall, they might not. But if you're not busting it on defense, you're on the pine. Doesn't matter if you're the star or not. I just don't think that's the culture that's been established. Ewing yells about the defense, but he doesn't pull anyone for it (as far as I can see). And when you play lackadaisical defense, you're capable of losing to anyone. And when shots are falling and the team is engaged, you can see that they're capable of giving effort and then they go on a huge run. That plus....
- Our transition defense is truly terrible. No ability to find shooters in transition. So when we miss or turn it over, we don't get our defense set, it snowballs. We give up a basket and then have to grind against a set half court defense and it just becomes self fulfilling
- Overall, I really thought our offensive gameplan and preparation was generally solid. For most of the game I saw decent ball movement, we were prepared for where the traps would be, we made skip passes / extra passes and because of that we were able to generate more 3 point looks than we normally do. Of course the turnovers were a problem and this team needs 2nd chance points to survive that weren't there, but I didn't feel like the team was surprised by what they saw. Primo did a good job snaking some side ball screens to get into the middle of the court and generate looks for his teammates etc.
- And on Primo...I almost feel like it's Dante Harris redux. The MO of the fanbase is to blame the centers for the defense and the point guards for the offense. Last year Primo had a 92.2 O Rating on 25% usage, this year he's at 102 with 25% usage. What exactly were we expecting here? He's basically playing the whole game (will get to that shortly) and has the ball in his hands. He's actually been short changed on some assists when we miss bunnies or open shots or get fouled. Yes there's some hero ball moments that we don't need. But honestly I don't know what we were expecting.
- On Primo's minutes, screaming bench Primo and play Anglin is just missing the point entirely. There is not a backup point guard on this roster. Anglin is not a PG, Murray is not, Heath is not (which is probably the most disappointing). When Primo gets his 2 minutes of rest, its a disaster out there. Murray has to walk the ball up, and we can't get into our offense. Last night Murray walked the ball up, dribbled himself into a side pick and roll, and then dribbled it out of bounds. Primo comes back in immediately. You even saw Anglin play a little with Primo last night because Ewing realized it. The answer is probably that Anglin needs to eat into Heath's minutes, but screaming about Primo misses the point. We can bemoan Dante not being here but it is what it is and the majority of the fanbase trashed him anyway (I had to defend Dante too many times last year to count)
- Ewing realized what Turgeon quickly figured out with Q last year....it just doesn't work. He needs to be truly dominant on the offensive end to justify what you have to do defensively on the court. And he either struggles against guys his size who single him up, or he can't execute against a double. He's not a lob threat as a rim runner. He honestly made some ok passes out of the double last night, where he would've been credited with a hockey assist, but there's just too many turnovers. And the defense is hopeless. I've advocated for drop coverage but honestly it doesnt matter. He doesn't do enough to make the ball handler hesitate. Any empty side ball screen is a bucket.
- Mozone had his best offensive game, but he's not a power forward at this level. It was great to see him knock down shots, honestly his slump was unsustainable for someone who hit 38% on a large number of attempts even at lower levels. And I haven't had any issues with the general quality of his attempts, they've been catch and shoot in rhythm type shots. They were bound to fall. But the defense just doesnt work with him at the 4 (regardless of who he's paired with). If Akok is forced to help and try to block a shot or switch on the perimeter, even if the first shot misses they're getting the offensive rebound. And Mozone wasn't really on the court for the big run because....
- Brad E. paired with Akok changed the entire complexion of the game. The lineup that stormed back was really Primo / Murray / Heath / Akok / Brad. With Brad on the court, we at least had a chance to compete on the glass on missed shots. Ewing was also comfortable letting Brad hard hedge screens. While I've criticized that tactic in the past, it did seem to work last night. I'm not sure it's sustainable but Brad was able to get out there and recover and everyone else mostly stayed home. He had a monster block and brought an energy level the team needed. For those claiming the run was because TT took their foot off the glass, I'm pretty sure you dont let a 21 point lead get to within 1 point because you're bored. That lineup had something other lineups lacked, and it worked. Is it sustainable? Why are we only trying Brad out in game 8? No idea, but they definitely found out something.
- THIS GAME, IN THIS ENVIRONMENT, IS WHY YOU SHOULD SCHEDULE BETTER. And Ewing didnt even schedule this game. But the team learned way more about itself last night than it had in the first 7. They were punched in the mouth, in a hostile environment, and had to decide whether they were going to turtle or fight. And they punched back. They had issues down the stretch and I'll hit minutes distribution as my last point, but if you play more games like this you figure out what you have much quicker than trying to just pad the schedule with wins
- This roster just isn't constructed well enough. You can criticize Primo minutes, but I dont think there's a viable alternative. Same thing with Akok, there's nobody on the bench who can do half of what he's doing to keep us afloat on defense. And Murray showed last night why he's regarded as the best overall player. So I just don't know what Ewing can practically do with the minutes (and yes of course he built the roster). But those three are going to simply have to play heavy minutes, Riley was out last night so maybe he can help save Murray a few, but otherwise you have Riley / Mozone / Bristol with too similar of a skillset and not enough depth at PF / C and PG. And Heath not being able to play PG makes him feel a little duplicative with Murray. The Primo / Heath / Murray combo just doesn't feel great or effective. So I don't know where you go from here.
Ok thats officially my longest post ever. Hoya Saxa
Great write up. Since Heath was off and Mozone was hitting I wonder what a lineup with Spears, Murray, Mozone, Akok and Brad would look like. Another thing I wonder is why Bristol doesn't get more time especially when we are down a player and we know he can hit 3s, he defends well and can rebound. He can definitely spell Heath and Murray to give them some rest. I doubt we see Dante but last night shows why we could really use him. I was also someone who had to defend him last year but looking at Primo's numbers Dante isn't much of a drop off if he is at all and Primo right now has way more talent around him. You put Primo on last year's team and I'm sure he is forcing it even more. No question that Primo, for all of his talents, lacks the kind of game management chops that Dante could presumably provide. Hopefully Primo and the team will live and learn as they move into conference play. Also, thanks to conshyhoya and rhw485 for such thoughtful and knowledgable basketball centric posts, good stuff
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