hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Feb 13, 2021 18:35:12 GMT -5
Wilson got what a minute? Sibley got 5? I am don't think there are a lot of answers on this roster but Clark or Berger don't give that game away. There is also the future recruiting implications. Why did he use all the scholarships then? We are already in the spot where we have to get rid of someone now unless Carey is a senior. You are talking about a coach who played freshman at the cost of potential tournament teams when looking toward the future. Is he that desperate to not finish in last place now? I hope he is because that means he thinks he will be held accountable for his accomplishments so far. I don't think that is the case. I think Patrick is correct to try to win the games. Wilson and Sibley do not look they are ready to truly compete in the BE.
I would expect to see a player or two transfer out this summer. I guess Jalen is gone for good? I think we have to be generally pleased with Dante's play. I thought today was a very sloppy, unattractive game.
Do you honestly think if Malcom and Sibley had the same green light mentality that Bile and Tim had they would have much worse box score numbers. The only way you can think Bile is not terrible is to look at the traditional box score. He is shooting 38% and 29% from 3 coming into today. He is also a terrible defender. His usage is 26.1 which is by far the highest on the team. On a team with Jahvon Blair that is an impressive feat. I mentioned earlier in this thread that if Carey had Bile's mentality he would be the leading scorer on the team. Carey as well as the young guys seem to be way more hesitant because I am guessing they think if they make a mistake they won't play. Bile is playing like a guy that knows he was recruited off of a highlight tape who coaches never saw in person. That is still the biggest shake your head thing about the entire Ewing tenure.
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dchoya72
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Post by dchoya72 on Feb 13, 2021 18:35:57 GMT -5
The team moved the ball. I'm concerned about the poor ball handling. We have too many unforced turnovers! Today was a lot like earlier this week against Creighton, except in the first half we shot the ball better. The early made 3'pointers helped us but it seemed like we were sliding down the hill near the end of the game. But we won.
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Post by HometownHoya on Feb 13, 2021 18:39:03 GMT -5
Which team was a tournament team that was sacrificed by playing freshman? In 2018-2019, the only reason we even made the NIT was because of playing freshman. 2019-2020, Qudus was the only FR to get minutes before the transfers. Then are you talking about 2017-2018? Do you think that playing FR Blair and Pickett then stopped Dickerson, Mulmore, Mosely, Derrickson, Govan, Mourning from getting to the postseason? Finally, trust me, I do want Kobe and TJ to get minutes but I will take W today over them getting the 1-5 minutes ANY DAY. I assume you agree? The 1st two teams of the Ewing tenure greatly underachieved based on the talent because he played Pickett, Blair, and McClung way too much. He also played Mourning too much over a freshman which shows how truly clueless he was. He played his guys and his godson way too much. If there is ever a decision to make the odds are he will make the wrong one. I think both teams get to the tournament with a good coach. Now that we see what a truly bad roster looks like we realize how good those first two years were. The biggest favor Ewing has got was the guys leaving last year. They provided him and his supporters an excuse and he didn't have to make any tough choices. Kobe and TJ getting minutes is not mutually exclusive from winning. My original post was pretty tongue in cheek to be honest. I agree that the freshman are back end rotation guys on a good team at best. I have been one of the only ones voicing my displeasure with the class from the beginning so I agree with you. I also don't think Bile or Tim are rotation guys on a good team so not sure any of that matters. Everyone outside of Pickett, Blair, Q and quickly becoming Dante is one big jumble of not very good. Q and Pickett have no decent backup somehow so I guess they can be bad and it doesn't matter. Dante now doesn't have a reasonable backup either but from what we know that was a bad break. Ewing has just brought in so many questionable guys. The one thing I actually give him credit for is his recruiting if that gives you any idea of where I am at this point of the experiment. He is horrible at roster construction and management in addition to everything else. My original post was more directed at the Ewing army that complains when we lose that it's tired legs and that everyone Ewing brings in a hidden gem. Nothing is ever Ewing's fault. The same people that are defending him playing the normal rotation to the final buzzer are the same one that think he's a good coach. Were they worried that their guy would blow a 20 point lead again? Do they think a good coach constantly blows the big leads that Ewing lead teams have? We are now at the point of the Ewing tenure where just not finishing last in the Big East is worthy of praise. How is this real life that everyone on this board isn't ready to be done with this? Unfortunately (RIP) we don't have the huge shadow on the program anymore that was holding us down. At least I hope not. I'm just at the point now where I am not even mad at the leader anymore. I am just fed up with the followers that refuse to get their head out of the sand and admit that there is a problem. If I had to do it all over again I would have put my original comment in one of the older threads. Fair points all around. Personally, even though Pat's early teams had talent, there was no guard talent which is the key to CBB success. I do miss Derrickson (and Govan) a ton and think they were underappreciated by many. I also agree that the tired legs argument is one of the dumber arguments in CBB ever; outside of when it's something like a double OT game on a Friday of BET then playing noon on Saturday. On Tuesday it was as simple as the fact no one in the blue and grey had it, from the bench to the floor. You watch enough basketball to know it happens...just sucks it was us and against a team that was so beatable that night. To your last sentence, I wonder how much its that some refuse to admit that there is a problem versus that there is disagreement about the extent of the problem, the solution, and the route to get there. I doubt there are many Hoya fans out there that are comfortable with where this program is now (except maybe those SFS alumni that were always anti sports). Thanks for the discussion though and again in the end I'm glad we got the W, not matter how subjectively ugly or mismanaged it was.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Feb 13, 2021 18:44:08 GMT -5
The 1st two teams of the Ewing tenure greatly underachieved based on the talent because he played Pickett, Blair, and McClung way too much. He also played Mourning too much over a freshman which shows how truly clueless he was. He played his guys and his godson way too much. If there is ever a decision to make the odds are he will make the wrong one. I think both teams get to the tournament with a good coach. Now that we see what a truly bad roster looks like we realize how good those first two years were. The biggest favor Ewing has got was the guys leaving last year. They provided him and his supporters an excuse and he didn't have to make any tough choices. Kobe and TJ getting minutes is not mutually exclusive from winning. My original post was pretty tongue in cheek to be honest. I agree that the freshman are back end rotation guys on a good team at best. I have been one of the only ones voicing my displeasure with the class from the beginning so I agree with you. I also don't think Bile or Tim are rotation guys on a good team so not sure any of that matters. Everyone outside of Pickett, Blair, Q and quickly becoming Dante is one big jumble of not very good. Q and Pickett have no decent backup somehow so I guess they can be bad and it doesn't matter. Dante now doesn't have a reasonable backup either but from what we know that was a bad break. Ewing has just brought in so many questionable guys. The one thing I actually give him credit for is his recruiting if that gives you any idea of where I am at this point of the experiment. He is horrible at roster construction and management in addition to everything else. My original post was more directed at the Ewing army that complains when we lose that it's tired legs and that everyone Ewing brings in a hidden gem. Nothing is ever Ewing's fault. The same people that are defending him playing the normal rotation to the final buzzer are the same one that think he's a good coach. Were they worried that their guy would blow a 20 point lead again? Do they think a good coach constantly blows the big leads that Ewing lead teams have? We are now at the point of the Ewing tenure where just not finishing last in the Big East is worthy of praise. How is this real life that everyone on this board isn't ready to be done with this? Unfortunately (RIP) we don't have the huge shadow on the program anymore that was holding us down. At least I hope not. I'm just at the point now where I am not even mad at the leader anymore. I am just fed up with the followers that refuse to get their head out of the sand and admit that there is a problem. If I had to do it all over again I would have put my original comment in one of the older threads. Fair points all around. Personally, even though Pat's early teams had talent, there was no guard talent which is the key to CBB success. I do miss Derrickson (and Govan) a ton and think they were underappreciated by many. I also agree that the tired legs argument is one of the dumber arguments in CBB ever; outside of when it's something like a double OT game on a Friday of BET then playing noon on Saturday. On Tuesday it was as simple as the fact no one in the blue and grey had it, from the bench to the floor. You watch enough basketball to know it happens...just sucks it was us and against a team that was so beatable that night. To your last sentence, I wonder how much its that some refuse to admit that there is a problem versus that there is disagreement about the extent of the problem, the solution, and the route to get there. I doubt there are many Hoya fans out there that are comfortable with where this program is now (except maybe those SFS alumni that were always anti sports). Thanks for the discussion though and again in the end I'm glad we got the W, not matter how subjectively ugly or mismanaged it was. Anti-sports SFS alumni!? What!? 46 years of Hoya basketball, every Hoya basketball game home and away except for one my second year of law school, every home football game for four years and a founding member of the pep band (and continued to play during law school at CUA Law)?! How dare you!!! 😁 SSHoya SFS ' 77, GULC LLM '84
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Feb 13, 2021 18:51:56 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2021 18:53:03 GMT -5
I would advocate for every player to play (freshmen included) but you guys criticize Patrick for every little thing he does or doesn't do.
Earlier in the year, I was saying all the kids should play every game(at least a few minutes for the freshmen). You guys kept saying "oh no, oh no, he should only play six players". Now you guys are saying play the freshmen! You guys are a bunch of hypocrites!!!
Now Coach has to win these last few games and he can't afford to put the freshmen in the games for long stretches. You guys need to just stop it and let coach run his team. He knows what he is doing.
You guys criticize him for everything and you contradict yourselves. I swear I wonder if you guys are real Hoya fans!
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Post by professorhoya on Feb 13, 2021 18:54:09 GMT -5
I do understand how recruiting works. Sure he could send texts and make calls but most of the time in season is focused on your current team rather then recruiting. As far as our Freshman Class goes: Collin Holloway- May commit (filling out roster), TJ Berger - April commit (filling out roster). Kobe - Feb Commit (filling out our roster, reaction to losing Leblanc and needing a 4). Tyler committed in Jan (as a Akinjo/Mac replacement) then deferred in June, causing Pat to go more in on the grad route. For grad transfers: Jalen Harris who was Akinjo's replacement April 2nd (should have only been the SR leadership for Dante/Tyler Beard...good plan for a grad), Chudier Bile (April 27nd) experienced depth so that Kobe/Holloway weren't starters (good plan for a grad), Don Carey (July 21) depth for the 2/3, a fill in for after Tyler decided not to come (hand forced here). I agree those Grad Transfers were the end of "filling out the roster" (keep in mind we had A LOT of spots to fill) but the transfers clearly weren't guys that Pat was planning on taking for the '20 class. The class should have been Dante, Tyler, and Sibley. Then Patrick grabbed some recruits and when the class was bare, got some grad transfers. If you want to pretend that Holloway, TJ, and Kobe are the type of players to get you BE championships and Pat should make minutes for them, then I'd love to hear that argument.
I'm gonna enjoy the Hoyas win and the rest of my day though. I look forward to your arguments that our 9-13 players are the key to a championship in the future. I don't think any of the freshmen will get Gtown to a championship-level team but I'd like to see if they can be contributors to a middle of the pack BE team... This is the key line. “You’d like to see” Does this change if you have access to watching every Hoyas practice?
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Post by aleutianhoya on Feb 13, 2021 18:58:31 GMT -5
On the "play the freshmen" point, there are a lot of separate issues.
First, if you think any of them are going to play meaningful roles on your team in the future, you have to try to get them minutes where you can. The past five or so games he has done that with Sibley albeit at a very minimal level. I just dont know that he views any of the other guys as future contributors. If they're not....what's the difference between playing them and playing an upperclassman that you think gives you an even marginally better chance of winning. After all, neither will be helping you next year in that hypo.
Second, if (as appears likely), you do believe at least Sibley merits time, there's no reason he shouldn't have gotten more today.
Finally, it's simply good form to get your other guys a few minutes in a game of this kind. Irrespective of what you think about their future with the program. I know this is "big boy" basketball and nothing is promised, but still.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 13, 2021 19:03:13 GMT -5
Not sure how you can be so definitive about this have you seen the rosters of the middle of the conference BE teams? Plus having solid 7th & 8th rotation kids would be a lovely change in my book... Yes, I have watched the middle of the pack BE teams...have you? For examples: UConn 5th place - 7th person Tyler Polley F (20.4 MPG 8.2ppg, 2.3 rpg) 8th Adam Sanogo F (15.2 MPG 6.6ppg 3.9 rpg) both those guys are performing better then Sibley right now, not to mention Kobe or TJ. St Johns 6th place - 7th man Isiah Moore F (17.5 mpg 9.2 ppg, 4.8 rpg) 8th man Marcelus Earlington (16.3 mpg, 6.5 ppg, 3.7 rpg). Again, outperforming our Hoyas. Georgetown 10th place - 7th man Timmy I (9.4 mpg 2.8 ppg 3.6 rpg) 8th man Jamari Sibley (6.2 mpg, 1.5 ppg, 1.5 rpg), 9th man TJ Berger (4.8 mpg 1.7 ppg, 0.1 rbg 0.6 apg). In comparison, the closest UConn guy to those averages are their 9th, 11th, and 12th man. Closest StJ guys are their 9th, 10th, 11th respectively. If you want to argue that they have more MPG sure, I don't have the per 40 stats but they still don't match up. I agree that they would be great 7th and 8th rotation guys someday but to get there they need development. Neither are ready for that this year. They are currently the 9th and 10th and it makes sense for where they are in their development. We could give them another 5 mpg but then Pat and the Hoyas are currently 3-13 and we are firmly in 11th rather then getting to look down on DePaul and have a fighting chance at 7th-9th. When it comes down to it, a coach's responsibility is to win. A lot of fans are ready to give up wins now for wins later. Unfortunately it doesnt work that way, wins later are not guaranteed. You try to win every time you're on the court. Seems to me you're changing the subject here, I never questioned whether or not other teams in the BE had better 7th or 8th men, that's an obvious yes... You were making the point that Kobe & Berger would never amount to more than 7th or 8th guys on a mid-level team, I think that it's too early to be that definitive... Uconn starts transfers from Howard & URI, take a look at the offers Wsu had other than St. John's, Seton Hall starts a former walk-on, that's the point I'm trying to make...
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Post by hsaxon on Feb 13, 2021 19:10:02 GMT -5
The team moved the ball. I'm concerned about the poor ball handling. We have too many unforced turnovers! Today was a lot like earlier this week against Creighton, except in the first half we shot the ball better. The early made 3'pointers helped us but it seemed like we were sliding down the hill near the end of the game. But we won. We won but we were extremely sloppy and unimpressive. Blair had points but I thought his floor game was absolutely awful.
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Post by bigelephant on Feb 13, 2021 19:17:34 GMT -5
The team moved the ball. I'm concerned about the poor ball handling. We have too many unforced turnovers! Today was a lot like earlier this week against Creighton, except in the first half we shot the ball better. The early made 3'pointers helped us but it seemed like we were sliding down the hill near the end of the game. But we won. We won but we were extremely sloppy and unimpressive. Blair had points but I thought his floor game was absolutely awful. Some slop but we played a very good game om average.
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mdtd
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Post by mdtd on Feb 13, 2021 19:19:07 GMT -5
Ok, so today's game was an odd one.
Defensively, I thought we were very solid. Against this Butler team, you can crash the paint. They can't shoot. They want to drive inside. And them not using Nze as a small-ball five like at all against Q was puzzling, but it played right into our hand. I thought we were very solid on this end.
Offensively, I thought our ball movement was very good... when it wasn't going out of bounds. Not many games can you shoot 13 fewer shots than your opponent and still win handily. Not many games can you lose the TO battle by 8 and still win handily. An excellent shooting performance aside (these come and go), our offense was bad. The guys just did stupid things. Blair had 9 TO's. NINE. Pickett's four weren't much better. When a team has 23 TO's you would assume your freshman PG had at least 6 of those. NO, he only had one. Our vets killed us with TO's man. That has to change. Because not every game will you hit what felt like every single shot. But the guys got open looks and knocked them down. If we weren't beating ourselves, this could've been a 30 point win. Against the rest of the BE, you just can't beat yourself. This has to stop.
I thought Dante played a very solid game though. He was a pest defensively, ran the offense well, and only took good looks (sans one out of control drive where Hodges swatted the shot). I thought the seniors were all good aside from the TO's. And Bile got lost defensively quite a bit, but they didn't make us pay at all. But, shoutout to Pickett and Blair for 1K. Pretty good day for that to happen.
And lastly, the rotation. We were up big like all game, this is a spot where you should find a couple of minutes for Berger and Clark. It's beneficial to everyone. Give Blair and Pickett a rest, and give the young guys experience. I also thought Sibley played a very solid defensive game. I think you can find more than 6 minutes for him.
Overall though, a pretty solid game. The guys shot the lights out of the ball. Just please, don't beat yourself. And in these spots let's try to get the young guys a couple of minutes. Onto the next one.
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mdtd
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Post by mdtd on Feb 13, 2021 19:20:31 GMT -5
I don't think any of the freshmen will get Gtown to a championship-level team but I'd like to see if they can be contributors to a middle of the pack BE team... This is the key line. “You’d like to see” Does this change if you have access to watching every Hoyas practice? Games and practices are very different
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Post by professorhoya on Feb 13, 2021 19:28:24 GMT -5
Ok, so today's game was an odd one. Defensively, I thought we were very solid. Against this Butler team, you can crash the paint. They can't shoot. They want to drive inside. And them not using Nze as a small-ball five like at all against Q was puzzling, but it played right into our hand. I thought we were very solid on this end. Offensively, I thought our ball movement was very good... when it wasn't going out of bounds. Not many games can you shoot 13 fewer shots than your opponent and still win handily. Not many games can you lose the TO battle by 8 and still win handily. An excellent shooting performance aside (these come and go), our offense was bad. The guys just did stupid things. Blair had 9 TO's. NINE. Pickett's four weren't much better. When a team has 23 TO's you would assume your freshman PG had at least 6 of those. NO, he only had one. Our vets killed us with TO's man. That has to change. Because not every game will you hit what felt like every single shot. But the guys got open looks and knocked them down. If we weren't beating ourselves, this could've been a 30 point win. Against the rest of the BE, you just can't beat yourself. This has to stop. I thought Dante played a very solid game though. He was a pest defensively, ran the offense well, and only took good looks (sans one out of control drive where Hodges swatted the shot). I thought the seniors were all good aside from the TO's. ANd Bile got lost defensively quite a bit, but they didn't make us pay at all. But, shoutout to Pickett and Blair for 1K. Pretty good day for that to happen. And lastly, the rotation. We were up big like all game, this is a spot where you should find a couple of minutes for Berger and Clark. It's beneficial to everyone. Give Blair and Pickett a rest, and give the young guys experience. I also thought Sibley played a very solid defensive game. I think you can find more than 6 minutes for him. Overall though, a pretty solid game. The guys shot the lights out of the ball. Just please, don't beat yourself. And in these spots let's try to get the young guys a couple of minutes. Onto the next one. 13 points is really not that much in modern basketball. You will have to admit it really is just a difference of 5 baskets/possessions
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Post by professorhoya on Feb 13, 2021 19:30:00 GMT -5
This is the key line. “You’d like to see” Does this change if you have access to watching every Hoyas practice? Games and practices are very different Yes but if you had access to practice that may inform your perception of a player. Most people on here are dealing with incomplete information since they don’t have access to all the practice footage
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mdtd
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Post by mdtd on Feb 13, 2021 19:31:36 GMT -5
Ok, so today's game was an odd one. Defensively, I thought we were very solid. Against this Butler team, you can crash the paint. They can't shoot. They want to drive inside. And them not using Nze as a small-ball five like at all against Q was puzzling, but it played right into our hand. I thought we were very solid on this end. Offensively, I thought our ball movement was very good... when it wasn't going out of bounds. Not many games can you shoot 13 fewer shots than your opponent and still win handily. Not many games can you lose the TO battle by 8 and still win handily. An excellent shooting performance aside (these come and go), our offense was bad. The guys just did stupid things. Blair had 9 TO's. NINE. Pickett's four weren't much better. When a team has 23 TO's you would assume your freshman PG had at least 6 of those. NO, he only had one. Our vets killed us with TO's man. That has to change. Because not every game will you hit what felt like every single shot. But the guys got open looks and knocked them down. If we weren't beating ourselves, this could've been a 30 point win. Against the rest of the BE, you just can't beat yourself. This has to stop. I thought Dante played a very solid game though. He was a pest defensively, ran the offense well, and only took good looks (sans one out of control drive where Hodges swatted the shot). I thought the seniors were all good aside from the TO's. ANd Bile got lost defensively quite a bit, but they didn't make us pay at all. But, shoutout to Pickett and Blair for 1K. Pretty good day for that to happen. And lastly, the rotation. We were up big like all game, this is a spot where you should find a couple of minutes for Berger and Clark. It's beneficial to everyone. Give Blair and Pickett a rest, and give the young guys experience. I also thought Sibley played a very solid defensive game. I think you can find more than 6 minutes for him. Overall though, a pretty solid game. The guys shot the lights out of the ball. Just please, don't beat yourself. And in these spots let's try to get the young guys a couple of minutes. Onto the next one. 13 points is really not that much in modern basketball. You will have to admit it really is just a difference of 5 baskets/possessions It felt like so much more. We were up about 20 all second half. They closed the lead very late. And against a Butler team that struggles to shoot the ball and plays at a snails pace, 13 is a lot.
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mdtd
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Post by mdtd on Feb 13, 2021 19:37:26 GMT -5
Games and practices are very different Yes but if you had access to practice that may inform your perception of a player. Most people on here are dealing with incomplete information since they don’t have access to all the practice footage I don't dispute that Ewing knows more than us about his players. But, seeing them in a game and getting them Big East action early on matters. It helps them adjust to the same and see where they fit in next to other guys on other teams. You see how other teams prepare for you and not guys you go up against every day. I think that helps.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Feb 13, 2021 19:52:21 GMT -5
Whenever we get a recruit there seems to be an irrational exuberance that this guy will have a huge, immediate impact on the team and program. See it on this Board all the time. Highlight videos always create this buzz. But then they get here and our coaches who see these guys in practice don't seem as excited by them as we fans were. I really think you have to trust coaches judgement. BUT if over time we keep getting recruits who don't have some immediate impact then maybe its time to find a coach with a better recruiting record.
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thedragon
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Post by thedragon on Feb 13, 2021 19:58:28 GMT -5
I still don't understand the idea that Clark and Berger aren't playing because they are a marginally less effective option than the upperclassmen that won't be around long term. First off, what has given anyone the impression the difference is marginal? Bile makes me want to throw the remote 90% of the time, but it's undeniable that his overall skillset and physicality is much more advanced than Clark or Sibley at this stage. Sibley earns a few minutes because he holds his own on defense and he keeps the ball moving on offense and rebounds a bit. But can we name one offensive shot, penetration, dime, or even move at this point that gives you the impression that he's ready to contribute offensively?
I think we also move the goalposts at times. Early on - 1,2,3 wins in big east play seemed like our destiny, but now 6 or 7 could become a reality in a shortened big east schedule. No one is claiming that this is acceptable, or that we shouldn't still be pretty Editeded about our current role in the national or big east landscape, but thinking that 6 or 7 big east wins would be attainable with more freshmen minutes over the upperclassmen seems like a trip to fantasy island I'd like to take right about now.
As Herm Edwards said, "You play to win the game". And im sorry, but imo, we would have several more losses if the freshmen minutes being advocated around here came to fruition. That doesn't dissolve the fact that the class was weak, that was mostly because of the surprise mass defections late in the game, but short on immediate help nonetheless (although I don't want to short change Dante and how well he's coming along).
We will never know without help of a time machine to an alternate reality, but criticizing Ewing for this particular lineup decision re: the freshman seems like grasping at the same idea that makes the backup QB the favorite player on a bad team. If they gave you a better chance to win, today, tomorrow or a month from now, they'd be playing.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Feb 13, 2021 20:01:36 GMT -5
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