FLHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by FLHoya on Dec 31, 2016 17:59:38 GMT -5
Really? I had the opposite reaction. I saw Xavier as being able to do whatever it wanted, whenever it needed to. I really thought they looked pretty weak. They struggled to finish, we forced them into bad shots and they gave us a lot of good looks offensively. Outside of (what I consider) a very favorable whistle, I thought we were clearly better and not even playing our best. They really struggled to guard us without fouling, unfortunately they were allowed to. We still should have won despite the officiating and that is what is most frustrating, as we gave away too much at the line, missed layups and with silly turnovers. If I'm being honest, for the first 32-35 minutes, Xavier's halfcourt offense was kinda hot trash. Lots of contested jumpers and drive and dish into someone's ankles. But they shored it up in the final minutes, and in Sumner as with Trimble, if your team has a high level guard, you'll get what you need whenever you need against us in crunch time. It was there for the taking, and we didn't. We're just not good enough to overcome giving away possessions with careless turnovers (it's not the raw number, it's the situations), yielding offensive rebounds/second chance points, missed layups and cheap fouls (I mean, sure, yell at Old Man Corbett for Rodney's second, but the third was a silly giveaway for no reason on Rodney's part, and the fourth just as head-smacking). We're now 27-29 in the new Big East. "I thought we were clearly better" isn't gonna cut it any more.
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rockhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by rockhoya on Dec 31, 2016 18:07:34 GMT -5
Hahahahah, no. And his lapses are all from a lack of focus and experience at this level. When he makes a mistake he makes up for it. That's what you need in a competitor. Sumner blew by him 5 times for layups or assists to layups. Mulmore gives us more on offense, but nothing on defense. On balance today it was a minus, although he did give us a glimmer of hope at the end. And gen did it at least 8 times to Campbell, how is that your evidence? Sumner is a future pro.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by sleepy on Dec 31, 2016 19:09:21 GMT -5
I really thought they looked pretty weak. They struggled to finish, we forced them into bad shots and they gave us a lot of good looks offensively. Outside of (what I consider) a very favorable whistle, I thought we were clearly better and not even playing our best. They really struggled to guard us without fouling, unfortunately they were allowed to. We still should have won despite the officiating and that is what is most frustrating, as we gave away too much at the line, missed layups and with silly turnovers. If I'm being honest, for the first 32-35 minutes, Xavier's halfcourt offense was kinda hot trash. Lots of contested jumpers and drive and dish into someone's ankles. But they shored it up in the final minutes, and in Sumner as with Trimble, if your team has a high level guard, you'll get what you need whenever you need against us in crunch time. It was there for the taking, and we didn't. We're just not good enough to overcome giving away possessions with careless turnovers (it's not the raw number, it's the situations), yielding offensive rebounds/second chance points, missed layups and cheap fouls (I mean, sure, yell at Old Man Corbett for Rodney's second, but the third was a silly giveaway for no reason on Rodney's part, and the fourth just as head-smacking). We're now 27-29 in the new Big East. "I thought we were clearly better" isn't gonna cut it any more. I'm not sure when "I thought we were clearly better" ever cut it. I think that actually makes things worse. And Xavier's offense is easily shored up in the final minutes when our starting 5 all have four fouls and they are in the double bonus. Sorry to keep harping on this but continuing to ignore the effect of the officiating is fruitless. Did the players have the opportunity to win despite this? Yes. Should they have to continually overcome a double standard like that in this conference? No. III needs to start doing something about this.
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EasyEd
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,272
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Post by EasyEd on Dec 31, 2016 19:42:52 GMT -5
I think, under the way officials were calling the game, I would give the Hoyas and coaches a B plus at least. Man I wish I had you for a professor when I was in school! My B plus is based on having to play significant minutes with, at one time or another, four of our five starters in deep foul trouble. Yet we almost played a ranked team to a standstill while losing due partly to missing FTs, one of our usual strong points. BTW, based on your comments I give you a C on your Game Report. Ha.
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FLHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Proud Member of Generation Burton
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Post by FLHoya on Dec 31, 2016 20:58:48 GMT -5
If I'm being honest, for the first 32-35 minutes, Xavier's halfcourt offense was kinda hot trash. Lots of contested jumpers and drive and dish into someone's ankles. But they shored it up in the final minutes, and in Sumner as with Trimble, if your team has a high level guard, you'll get what you need whenever you need against us in crunch time. It was there for the taking, and we didn't. We're just not good enough to overcome giving away possessions with careless turnovers (it's not the raw number, it's the situations), yielding offensive rebounds/second chance points, missed layups and cheap fouls (I mean, sure, yell at Old Man Corbett for Rodney's second, but the third was a silly giveaway for no reason on Rodney's part, and the fourth just as head-smacking). We're now 27-29 in the new Big East. "I thought we were clearly better" isn't gonna cut it any more. I'm not sure when "I thought we were clearly better" ever cut it. I think that actually makes things worse. And Xavier's offense is easily shored up in the final minutes when our starting 5 all have four fouls and they are in the double bonus. Sorry to keep harping on this but continuing to ignore the effect of the officiating is fruitless. Did the players have the opportunity to win despite this? Yes. Should they have to continually overcome a double standard like that in this conference? No. III needs to start doing something about this. I don't think you should ignore the effect of the officiating--it didn't help our cause today for sure--but our self-inflicted mistakes are magnifying the effect of something that didn't need to be as big of an issue. That's why I brought up Pryor above. His second foul in the first half was a bad call, no two ways about it, and he was rightly upset. But the good news is he stayed out of trouble the rest of the half while only missing one defensive possession, and we were up two at the break and +6 after the foul. So the impact of the bad call is negated, right? Well, not for long. On the first possession of the 2nd half, Rodney commits his third foul--Sumner has a wide open lane to the basket, and Rodney just slaps him as he goes by for a dunk. If you slide over late to take a charge that's one thing, but this was a totally pointless foul that made it no harder on Sumner. A few minutes later, Rodney gets beat on a baseline cut, and bumps Bernard from behind on a reverse layup--another unnecessary foul that doesn't make up for a defensive breakdown. And now one of our two indispensable offensive players sits for 7 1/2 minutes in the second half of a game with 16 lead changes. The officiating was suspect today--but Ed Corbett got Rodney Pryor to two fouls, not four. Jessie Govan did something similar--he got two fouls before the first TV timeout. He sits for five minutes, comes back for 2 1/2 minutes and everything's okay--for now, we're managing the Govan-Hayes-Derrickson frontcourt rotation okay. But then Jessie comes back in around the 5 minute mark, and on his first possession--and he has to know he's playing with two fouls here--O'Mara gets the ball in the post and Jessie very obviously brings his arms down and rakes him for foul #3. So now probably our most likely #3 scoring option not only doesn't start the second half, he only plays about 6 minutes. An avoidable occurrence if you're playing smarter situational basketball. My point is--we should be able to overcome poor officiating in a game like this, when Xavier's half court offense--they shot 39% for the game--was nothing special for 35 minutes. But little brain freezes like the fouls above and all the other stuff I mentioned let Xavier off the hook for a blah afternoon, and believe me they'll do the same for other opponents. As for the defense in those final five minutes--I'm reminded of of our home victories against Louisville in the latter old Big East years, when Rick Pitino would put Peyton Siva or whoever way out by halfcourt and run the same kind of drives with maybe a little screen and never get jack squat because once upon a time, we could defend that kind of stuff.
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FLHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Proud Member of Generation Burton
Posts: 4,544
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Post by FLHoya on Dec 31, 2016 21:01:12 GMT -5
If I can be nice about something from today, we should give Chris Grosse a freaking medal. To get 11,275 on NYE in a terrible time slot with a struggling team is a feat. Trust me when I say--a lot of it was the promotion. I sit around the sections that got filled because of it. He remains a highlight of the McDonough/IAC crew.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Dec 31, 2016 21:17:29 GMT -5
Sumner blew by him 5 times for layups or assists to layups. Mulmore gives us more on offense, but nothing on defense. On balance today it was a minus, although he did give us a glimmer of hope at the end. And gen did it at least 8 times to Campbell, how is that your evidence? Sumner is a future pro. Good try. Mulmore was terrible on defense today. Make the guy take ONE outside shot for goodness sake. And having watched the game again, Tre was beaten 3 times. But nice try. Mulmore is our best offensive option. But our worst defensive option. So the coach has to balance our needs.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Dec 31, 2016 21:19:51 GMT -5
Man I wish I had you for a professor when I was in school! My B plus is based on having to play significant minutes with, at one time or another, four of our five starters in deep foul trouble. Yet we almost played a ranked team to a standstill while losing due partly to missing FTs, one of our usual strong points. BTW, based on your comments I give you a C on your Game Report. Ha. That's okay - based on your grading of the game I would give you a C in your evaluation skills!
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rockhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,830
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Post by rockhoya on Dec 31, 2016 21:53:46 GMT -5
And gen did it at least 8 times to Campbell, how is that your evidence? Sumner is a future pro. Good try. Mulmore was terrible on defense today. Make the guy take ONE outside shot for goodness sake. And having watched the game again, Tre was beaten 3 times. But nice try. Mulmore is our best offensive option. But our worst defensive option. So the coach has to balance our needs. Not close. Tre can't guard anyone.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Dec 31, 2016 22:03:26 GMT -5
Okay, then I guess Tre and Mulmore are even on that front.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Dec 31, 2016 22:52:28 GMT -5
It is a pity that we don't have Pryor back for one more year alongside Peak and with Waters at the helm.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 1, 2017 4:23:57 GMT -5
I think Rock sounds like the right guy for that as he seems to know about the varying degrees of groin injuries. But, I'm sure you would actually enjoy the job so go for it. Seriously mods, when is this troll gonna get a ban? Why don't you find something to crawl under with this?
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Jan 2, 2017 14:06:29 GMT -5
I hate Macura but that kids hustles his ass off. We need more of that on our team. Blueitt disappeared and they still beat us. We need to come up with an answer for the ball screen switch at end of game that results in a mismatch. Either don't switch or go pack line. Same way we lost to MD and same way we will lose to other teams with points who can score. Sumner looked all world.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Jan 3, 2017 8:50:24 GMT -5
38 FOULS TO 23??? HOYAS GOT RIPPED OFF FOR REAL. I normally don't complain about referee's but I saw some suspect non calls out there and calls. One other thing stop changing point guards Campbell is NOT better than Mulmore at the point that f'd the game up as well!!!
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 3, 2017 9:08:17 GMT -5
38 FOULS TO 23??? HOYAS GOT RIPPED OFF FOR REAL. I normally don't complain about referee's but I saw some suspect non calls out there and calls. One other thing stop changing point guards Campbell is NOT better than Mulmore at the point that f'd the game up as well!!! The fouls were 28-23 Glide not 38 to 23.. I do agree that JT3 needs to pick a 2nd guard and play him the majority of minutes(25+), if he fails consistently over a few games give the next guy a shot but stop with this "hot hand" method.. I don't feel it's productive to have Mosely, Mulmore & Campbell looking over their shoulders whenever they make the inevitable mistake.. Jagan had a bad turnover a minute into the game & JT3 had Tre at the scorers table.. Why bother to start him if his rope was that short?
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,362
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Post by calhoya on Jan 3, 2017 9:50:27 GMT -5
38 FOULS TO 23??? HOYAS GOT RIPPED OFF FOR REAL. I normally don't complain about referee's but I saw some suspect non calls out there and calls. One other thing stop changing point guards Campbell is NOT better than Mulmore at the point that f'd the game up as well!!! The fouls were 28-23 Glide not 38 to 23.. I do agree that JT3 needs to pick a 2nd guard and play him the majority of minutes(25+), if he fails consistently over a few games give the next guy a shot but stop with this "hot hand" method.. I don't feel it's productive to have Mosely, Mulmore & Campbell looking over their shoulders whenever they make the inevitable mistake.. Jagan had a bad turnover a minute into the game & JT3 had Tre at the scorers table.. Why bother to start him if his rope was that short? Mosley has started out both BE games jittery. I agree it would be better to bring him off the bench than start him and yank him quickly. The problem in the Marquette game was that the kid was left in too long and committed TOs and fouls. What I have noticed is that when he returns to the game he appears more settled. As for Mulmore v. Tre it is a very difficult choice as neither offers much on defense right now and Tre has not hit the outside shots. Mulmore has looked more the part of PG except for the fact that he presents no threat to shoot from the outside. It's like playing 4 on 5 when the other team is taking away his penetration.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Jan 3, 2017 11:33:09 GMT -5
HUGE FOUL DISPARITY ON THE HOME FRONT SMGDMFH!!!
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Jan 3, 2017 11:35:23 GMT -5
38 FOULS TO 23??? HOYAS GOT RIPPED OFF FOR REAL. I normally don't complain about referee's but I saw some suspect non calls out there and calls. One other thing stop changing point guards Campbell is NOT better than Mulmore at the point that f'd the game up as well!!! The fouls were 28-23 Glide not 38 to 23.. I do agree that JT3 needs to pick a 2nd guard and play him the majority of minutes(25+), if he fails consistently over a few games give the next guy a shot but stop with this "hot hand" method.. I don't feel it's productive to have Mosely, Mulmore & Campbell looking over their shoulders whenever they make the inevitable mistake.. Jagan had a bad turnover a minute into the game & JT3 had Tre at the scorers table.. Why bother to start him if his rope was that short? According to ESPN I was correct. Xavier went to the free throw line 38 times, Hoyas only 23??? I repeat ONLY 23 times. It's not like the Hoyas weren't attacking the basket. www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400919661Mulmore at the point full time. Campbell and Mosely at the 2. Slide Tre over to the 2. He slows down the offense. He doesn't attack the basket. Mosely can play both the 1 and 2 he should be Mulmore's back up!
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Jan 3, 2017 11:42:11 GMT -5
Sumner blew by him 5 times for layups or assists to layups. Mulmore gives us more on offense, but nothing on defense. On balance today it was a minus, although he did give us a glimmer of hope at the end. And gen did it at least 8 times to Campbell, how is that your evidence? Sumner is a future pro. Mulmore pretty much stays in front of his man and makes his opponent change directions! PLAY HIM FULL TIME AT THE POINT!!!
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Jan 3, 2017 11:45:43 GMT -5
I'm not sure when "I thought we were clearly better" ever cut it. I think that actually makes things worse. And Xavier's offense is easily shored up in the final minutes when our starting 5 all have four fouls and they are in the double bonus. Sorry to keep harping on this but continuing to ignore the effect of the officiating is fruitless. Did the players have the opportunity to win despite this? Yes. Should they have to continually overcome a double standard like that in this conference? No. III needs to start doing something about this. I don't think you should ignore the effect of the officiating--it didn't help our cause today for sure--but our self-inflicted mistakes are magnifying the effect of something that didn't need to be as big of an issue. That's why I brought up Pryor above. His second foul in the first half was a bad call, no two ways about it, and he was rightly upset. But the good news is he stayed out of trouble the rest of the half while only missing one defensive possession, and we were up two at the break and +6 after the foul. So the impact of the bad call is negated, right? Well, not for long. On the first possession of the 2nd half, Rodney commits his third foul--Sumner has a wide open lane to the basket, and Rodney just slaps him as he goes by for a dunk. If you slide over late to take a charge that's one thing, but this was a totally pointless foul that made it no harder on Sumner. A few minutes later, Rodney gets beat on a baseline cut, and bumps Bernard from behind on a reverse layup--another unnecessary foul that doesn't make up for a defensive breakdown. And now one of our two indispensable offensive players sits for 7 1/2 minutes in the second half of a game with 16 lead changes. The officiating was suspect today--but Ed Corbett got Rodney Pryor to two fouls, not four. Jessie Govan did something similar--he got two fouls before the first TV timeout. He sits for five minutes, comes back for 2 1/2 minutes and everything's okay--for now, we're managing the Govan-Hayes-Derrickson frontcourt rotation okay. But then Jessie comes back in around the 5 minute mark, and on his first possession--and he has to know he's playing with two fouls here--O'Mara gets the ball in the post and Jessie very obviously brings his arms down and rakes him for foul #3. So now probably our most likely #3 scoring option not only doesn't start the second half, he only plays about 6 minutes. An avoidable occurrence if you're playing smarter situational basketball. My point is--we should be able to overcome poor officiating in a game like this, when Xavier's half court offense--they shot 39% for the game--was nothing special for 35 minutes. But little brain freezes like the fouls above and all the other stuff I mentioned let Xavier off the hook for a blah afternoon, and believe me they'll do the same for other opponents. As for the defense in those final five minutes--I'm reminded of of our home victories against Louisville in the latter old Big East years, when Rick Pitino would put Peyton Siva or whoever way out by halfcourt and run the same kind of drives with maybe a little screen and never get jack squat because once upon a time, we could defend that kind of stuff. Hoyas went to the free throw line 23 times, Xavier 38. SMH
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