Hoyas - Xavier 12/31/16 Discussion

[DanMcQ]

Time to start racking up some RPI wins.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

Hopefully Xavier comes in over confident with their blow out of Providence.

Thought we did a much better job on the boards besides the Fischer tip outs a couple of which were over the back, but we held them to 28.6% offensive rebounding compared to our normal 35.1% so definitely an improvement. That will be the key against xavier. Box out and rebound and I think we can get this win at home.

[FrazierFanatic]

Derrickson needs to work much harder on boxing out. It stung in the second half when we played 30 seconds of defense, forced a bad shot - then Marcus stood and watched his man waltz past him and grab the board.

[blueandgray]

Hopefully LJ is feeling better. he's definitely hurt. We will need him for more than 22 minutes and need him to be on to have a chance.

[calhoya]

This Xavier game is important on many levels and not just the outcome. Amidst all of the debate between those who support this coach and those who want him fired, everyone is hoping for the Hoyas to finish in the top half of the Big East. We are shooting for 4th or 5th place and not overly optimistic about reaching that "height"! Totally pathetic.

We are back to the Esherick era where even the most ardent supporters have lowered their expectations to an embarrassing level. I stopped following the team closely during the latter years of Esherick. I thought that the school was wasting a tremendous amount of money on a program that was going nowhere. I was also unhappy that the reigns were handed over to JT III because it smacked of nepotism to me and I did not believe that his record at Princeton, while good, justified the position he assumed. He quickly proved me wrong and showed that he could coach and recruit. I admit that mistake readily and appreciate what he has done for the school and the program. I want him to succeed and hope he succeeds, but this season is taking on the same feel as the last 3.

Yes the offense has been changed from one that had gone outdated and no longer appealed to the kids being recruited. But this offense is totally dependent upon a couple of kids and still has too many players who cannot shoot--it needs time and better recruits who fit the style. I also see a team that does not rebound or play aggressive defense consistently. I see an enormous amounts of empty seats in the arena. I hear national pundits rip the program and describe the coach as on the hot seat--which certainly cannot help recruiting. It all seems to be spiraling out of control. This team needs a good showing against a top team and it needs support from the fans. I will be there Saturday--hope that many of you will join me.

[vv83]

In terms of national perception - I think we are actually past the "spiraling out of control" point to the "nobody cares" point, which is even worse. We are just another thoroughly mediocre program among the many such programs across the country. Our history still gets us some attention that other programs of similar quality don't get, but on the whole I think our own fans (and only a small number of those) bring any emotion at all to following what is going on with Georgetown basketball. Given how good we were even 4 seasons ago (last BE season, Otto's soph year), it is pretty remarkable that we have fallen to this level so quickly.

If LJ is limited by injury, we don't have a prayer against Xavier. LJ is one of our few physically/mentally tough players, even beyond his talent. You can't compete with Xavier if you play soft, and I can't imagine we will play anything but soft without a healthy LJ.

[Elvado]

I actually entertained the idea of taking my son down to the game on Saturday. Then I watched last night and was convinced I was out of my mind.

The point guard play on this team is so substandard right now. It makes the team exceedingly difficult to watch.

Any chance Waters enrolls tonight?

[aleutianhoya]

No, this isn't a "must win." But it is a game that would give us some wiggle room over the next few weeks. We always knew the first four games would be difficult: two winnable but difficult away games and two home games against two of the three or four top teams in the league. The following three games are much easier. But lose all four of these and (aside from the folks here going absolutely ballistic) we are in a position where we absolutely have to win the next three (St.J, UConn, and Provy -- all at home).

Even excellent teams lose to other excellent teams at home with some frequency (and lose routinely to other excellent teams on the road). And good teams routinely lose to excellent (and other good) teams on the road. It's not "lowering expectations" to say that. That would be true even if we appeared to be an "excellent" team this year. So losing any of them isn't cause for ultimate concern. But good teams -- and NCAAT teams -- can pick off a few of them. And we're going to have to do that. Saturday would be a good time to start!

I actually think we're much better positioned to play Xavier than we have been in recent years. Our PNR defense against Marquette was much different than we typically see it: Our bigs doubled every PNR hard before recovering into the paint. We didn't do it perfectly (to say the least) and arguably that wasn't the best way to play things against a team like Marquette that is more a shooting team than a driving team. But....it IS a perfectly good way to deal with Xavier, which likes to get into the lane. Xavier certainly isn't incompetent from distance, but nobody on their team is shooting more than 35% from three. (I don't want to overstate it, since three or four of their key players all shoot right around 35%.) I think we're going to see much more of that, at least periodically, as a means of trying to keep other teams' guards out of the lane. Offensively, we have our challenges to be sure, but what we do have are a number of folks that can all hit open threes. That's the best way to deal with a pack-line type defense. We likely need LJ to be healthy, but in all events, we're going to have to shoot well from distance.

I apologize for actually trying to speak to what I saw in the Marquette game and apply it to what we may see against Xavier, rather than using highly analytic words like "crap" and "the offense stinks" and "heart."

[calhoya]

Dec 29, 2016 9:16:13 GMT -5 aleutianhoya said:

No, this isn't a "must win." But it is a game that would give us some wiggle room over the next few weeks. We always knew the first four games would be difficult: two winnable but difficult away games and two home games against two of the three or four top teams in the league. The following three games are much easier. But lose all four of these and (aside from the folks here going absolutely ballistic) we are in a position where we absolutely have to win the next three (St.J, UConn, and Provy -- all at home).

Even excellent teams lose to other excellent teams at home with some frequency (and lose routinely to other excellent teams on the road). And good teams routinely lose to excellent (and other good) teams on the road. It's not "lowering expectations" to say that. That would be true even if we appeared to be an "excellent" team this year. So losing any of them isn't cause for ultimate concern. But good teams -- and NCAAT teams -- can pick off a few of them. And we're going to have to do that. Saturday would be a good time to start!

I actually think we're much better positioned to play Xavier than we have been in recent years. Our PNR defense against Marquette was much different than we typically see it: Our bigs doubled every PNR hard before recovering into the paint. We didn't do it perfectly (to say the least) and arguably that wasn't the best way to play things against a team like Marquette that is more a shooting team than a driving team. But....it IS a perfectly good way to deal with Xavier, which likes to get into the lane. Xavier certainly isn't incompetent from distance, but nobody on their team is shooting more than 35% from three. (I don't want to overstate it, since three or four of their key players all shoot right around 35%.) I think we're going to see much more of that, at least periodically, as a means of trying to keep other teams' guards out of the lane. Offensively, we have our challenges to be sure, but what we do have are a number of folks that can all hit open threes. That's the best way to deal with a pack-line type defense. We likely need LJ to be healthy, but in all events, we're going to have to shoot well from distance.

I apologize for actually trying to speak to what I saw in the Marquette game and apply it to what we may see against Xavier, rather than using highly analytic words like "crap" and "the offense stinks" and "heart."

Some fair points. However, this team is as fragile a group as I can recall in years and the problem is not that the bigs do not try to play defense or that the team lacks any kids who can hit the open 3. The problem is that none of these occur consistently throughout the game. Playing solid defense for 25 seconds or 25 minutes is irrelevant if you get lazy, take a few plays off or lose focus during stretches of the game--particularly on the road. I think that this team needs an emotional leader to keep them focused during the game. That is not the nature of this coach or any particular player on this team who I can identify. Absent that, this team has no one to hold players instantly accountable for the lazy pass, the poor shot, the failure to box out, or the dumb foul. Big John would yank players quickly for these types of mistakes, talk to them and then put them back into the game.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Dec 29, 2016 9:05:50 GMT -5 vv83 said:

In terms of national perception - I think we are actually past the "spiraling out of control" point to the "nobody cares" point, which is even worse. We are just another thoroughly mediocre program among the many such programs across the country. Our history still gets us some attention that other programs of similar quality don't get, but on the whole I think our own fans (and only a small number of those) bring any emotion at all to following what is going on with Georgetown basketball. Given how good we were even 4 seasons ago (last BE season, Otto's soph year), it is pretty remarkable that we have fallen to this level so quickly.

It's easy to forget that just two seasons ago we were a 4 seed in the tournament. Yes, last year wasn't good and this year has been shaky but comparing it to Esherick (as others did, not you vv83) era and saying things like "nobody cares" is really just fans being fans. Win a few unexpected games like on a Saturday and suddenly we are back in the discussion. But yes, at some point we need to win.

[calhoya]

Dec 29, 2016 10:04:52 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Dec 29, 2016 9:05:50 GMT -5 vv83 said:

In terms of national perception - I think we are actually past the "spiraling out of control" point to the "nobody cares" point, which is even worse. We are just another thoroughly mediocre program among the many such programs across the country. Our history still gets us some attention that other programs of similar quality don't get, but on the whole I think our own fans (and only a small number of those) bring any emotion at all to following what is going on with Georgetown basketball. Given how good we were even 4 seasons ago (last BE season, Otto's soph year), it is pretty remarkable that we have fallen to this level so quickly.

It's easy to forget that just two seasons ago we were a 4 seed in the tournament. Yes, last year wasn't good and this year has been shaky but comparing it to Esherick (as others did, not you vv83) era and saying things like "nobody cares" is really just fans being fans. Win a few unexpected games like on a Saturday and suddenly we are back in the discussion. But yes, at some point we need to win.

I respect your right to disagree with the comparison I made to the Esherick years. However, please recall that in the 4 full seasons under Esherick, the team won 19 games 3 times and 25 games one time. He was in the Sweet Sixteen once and he was in the championship of the NIT. None of that precluded people from believing that the program was not headed in the right direction.

This is not about JT III. JT III has produced better records than Esherick. This is about the overall status of the program today and where it satnds compared to its historical position on the national basketball scene. I think that you would have to agree that the reputation of the program and any buzz surrounding it is lower now than at any time since Esherick left. Also perception is based upon expectations. When Esherick took over the expectations of the program were higher than they are today. The goal these days appears to be finishing in the top half of the BE and making the NCAA tournament. Not long ago it was to reach the second round of the NCAA. Prior to that it was to contend for the final weekend. It is not headed in the right direction.

[ColumbiaHeightsHoya]

Xavier is very beatable. I haven't seen their new inside presence but Reynolds & Farr being gone really helps. Taking Davis out and now is the time to beat them. I think this Hoyas team can beat or lose to every team on a given night. We started out flat, got hot, went flat and then were fairly steady. We can't win if LJ is off. Hopefully we get one on Saturday because winning at Providence won't be an easy task.

[bamahoya11]

This game is really a pivotal one for our season. Although it may not be a "must win" in the sense that a good run later in the season could offset some early losses, the game on Saturday and the game the next week at home against Butler are probably our two best chances to get high-level, statement-making wins this season. We really need to cash in on those opportunities if we want to go dancing in March. At a minimum, we really need one or these two home games.

I've watched Xavier a few times, and they're pretty good. I see someone like Macura really giving us fits. They will get open threes from us, and we need to hope we get some luck to go our way and shots rimming out. The front court seems ok, but after last night, I don't know what to expect from us inside.

Ultimately, this game comes down to whether we are ready to go. LJ has to be back--can't win this game without him. And everyone else needs to be focused. Should be a fun game. I'll be there, ready to yell for the Hoyas before heading off to watch Bama play Washington in the college football playoff.

[FrazierFanatic]

It will be deflating, and extremely telling, if this squad does not come out with fire in their eyes on defense from the opening tip.

Oh, and we need a volunteer to work on LJ's groin from now until Saturday. eagle, this is your chance to make a difference my friend!

[seaweed]

Apparently it all hinges on Peak. Let's hope his groin is getting all the attention and care it needs.

[lda05816]

Without Davis, this is not a good 3 point shooting team right now. They are 204th in 3PT FG%. I think we need to stay on Blueitt and Macura but play off of Sumner. He is excellent at getting to the basket, have to make him beat us with the jumper. They are an excellent rebounding team, so to have a chance we have to really battle on the boards, which I thought we showed improvement in last night.

[TBird41]

Dec 28, 2016 22:58:13 GMT -5 HoyaSinceBirth said:

Hopefully Xavier comes in over confident with their blow out of Providence.

Thought we did a much better job on the boards besides the Fischer tip outs a couple of which were over the back, but we held them to 28.6% offensive rebounding compared to our normal 35.1% so definitely an improvement. That will be the key against xavier. Box out and rebound and I think we can get this win at home.

Marquette is one of the worst offensive rebounding team in the country (thankfully, Butler, Creighton and Providence are worse). Xavier is the best in the Big East. Let's hope we can be as successful at rebounding on Saturday.

[JohnnyJones]

Dec 29, 2016 10:26:15 GMT -5 calhoya said:

Dec 29, 2016 10:04:52 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

It's easy to forget that just two seasons ago we were a 4 seed in the tournament. Yes, last year wasn't good and this year has been shaky but comparing it to Esherick (as others did, not you vv83) era and saying things like "nobody cares" is really just fans being fans. Win a few unexpected games like on a Saturday and suddenly we are back in the discussion. But yes, at some point we need to win.

I respect your right to disagree with the comparison I made to the Esherick years. However, please recall that in the 4 full seasons under Esherick, the team won 19 games 3 times and 25 games one time. He was in the Sweet Sixteen once and he was in the championship of the NIT. None of that precluded people from believing that the program was not headed in the right direction.

This is not about JT III. JT III has produced better records than Esherick. This is about the overall status of the program today and where it satnds compared to its historical position on the national basketball scene. I think that you would have to agree that the reputation of the program and any buzz surrounding it is lower now than at any time since Esherick left. Also perception is based upon expectations. When Esherick took over the expectations of the program were higher than they are today. The goal these days appears to be finishing in the top half of the BE and making the NCAA tournament. Not long ago it was to reach the second round of the NCAA. Prior to that it was to contend for the final weekend. It is not headed in the right direction.

I am not sure quoting Esherick win totals without a caveat regarding the OOC schedule in those years is fair. But you know that. What was the win total in BE games?

[njhoya78]

Xavier has lost two straight road games (at Baylor and at Colorado). I think it's unlikely that they'll be over-confident coming into this game due to this road "slide."

If Peak is hampered by the groin injury, or unable to play, this could be very ugly.

[calhoya]

Dec 29, 2016 14:10:49 GMT -5 JohnnyJones said:

Dec 29, 2016 10:26:15 GMT -5 calhoya said:

I respect your right to disagree with the comparison I made to the Esherick years. However, please recall that in the 4 full seasons under Esherick, the team won 19 games 3 times and 25 games one time. He was in the Sweet Sixteen once and he was in the championship of the NIT. None of that precluded people from believing that the program was not headed in the right direction.

This is not about JT III. JT III has produced better records than Esherick. This is about the overall status of the program today and where it satnds compared to its historical position on the national basketball scene. I think that you would have to agree that the reputation of the program and any buzz surrounding it is lower now than at any time since Esherick left. Also perception is based upon expectations. When Esherick took over the expectations of the program were higher than they are today. The goal these days appears to be finishing in the top half of the BE and making the NCAA tournament. Not long ago it was to reach the second round of the NCAA. Prior to that it was to contend for the final weekend. It is not headed in the right direction.

I am not sure quoting Esherick win totals without a caveat regarding the OOC schedule in those years is fair. But you know that. What was the win total in BE games?

I think that I clearly acknowledged that JT III has produced better records than Esherick. But I was not attempting to glorify the Esherick years or equate JT III with Esherick. My opinion remains that the national status of the program today is lower than at any time since the Esherick years. I am not certain anyone, including the current coaching staff, would disagree with that comment.  Students chanting for the firing of the coach on national television certainly does not help. National sports commentators openly questioning the effort of the players does not help. I know that JT III often takes an unfair hit whenever lists are put together of coaches on the hot seat, but he is on every list. Little mention is given to the other factors, including injuries, suspensions and transfers, that might have impacted his results in recent years. This is about where the program is and not why it is there.  Most damning, I recall attending games against the St. Leo's of the world that had more enthusiasm and active crowds, than the dead and empty arena that is there now. I got very good tickets for Saturday's game against a nationally ranked team two days ago!  That in itself would not have been possible just a few years ago. All this was an attempt to say that it is important that this team turn it around now, starting this weekend. It is important to the future of the program. Others can debate the future of the coach--that is not my agenda.