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Post by centercourt400s on Dec 23, 2016 14:49:17 GMT -5
This must be MCI's day to "enrage" the Dallas contingent on the board, between DFW, DallasHoya and myself. I am absolutely certain that if MCI had seen Patrick play in college he would not suggest an equivalency with Jesse's offensive game. Context is important here. Patrick played without the shot clock and without the three point shot. Consequently, defenses were packed in and quality bigs seldom got the ball without having their hands attacked from a collapsing wing or guard. In the 1982 Championship game that collapsing wing was Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan also provides an instructive comparison to put Patrick's scoring in context. It is often remarked that Dean Smith was the only man who could hold Michael Jordan under 20. In Jordan's last year, 1983-4, he averaged 19.6 ppg. That same year Patrick averaged 16.4. When you score at a rate equivalent to 83% of Michael Jordan, you are a great offensive player. Agreed. Huge differences in the game then to now make the comparison difficult at best. Certainly Jesse has shown far deeper range than Patrick ever did but there was a zero % chance that Patrick would ever attempt a shot even close to today's 3-point range so who knows if he could have shot threes in college? What we do know is that he had a nice touch out to about 10 - 12 feet which is about how far he ever got from the hoop on offense.
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ahoya2
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 135
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Post by ahoya2 on Dec 23, 2016 14:59:16 GMT -5
Ewing vs Govan You have to be kidding me! Just dunking? As a freshman Ewing already had his unstoppable turnaround jumper from the baseline or in from the elbow when defenses were much more aggressive than today. IN the NCAA title game in New Orleans against North Caroling in '82,( I attended as did a lot of classmates - C'68)basically Thompson told Ewing at the start of the game to swat away any shot he could and didn't care if it was goal tending as long as it imprinted on the NC players mind. One of the great college games of all time
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TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
Posts: 8,740
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 23, 2016 15:01:52 GMT -5
Thank Peak and Pryor for this. They flat out get to the rim. The fact that our bigs are excellent shooters too definitely helps. Free throws could be the difference maker come big east play. side note: does grosse want us to start calling them the P+P Buckets Factory? I like it but it doesn't roll off the tongue very well. Govan and Agau also draw a ton of fouls. KenPom has both of them drawing more fouls per 40 minutes than Pryor (Pryor obviously draws more in a game, since he plays more). Are they better at drawing fouls than Patrick Ewing was? I had not yet turned two when Ewing graduated, so I couldn't say.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Dec 23, 2016 16:05:25 GMT -5
More offensively gifted than Patrick??!! Other than the 21+ footer, I don't see anything Jessie could do as well as Ewing. Granted Patrick's production was more limited because of the weapons he had around him, but come on MCI, really? I don't recall the Ewing Era. I was very young and not interested in college hoops at the time. I had to rely on watching Ewing highlights on TV over the years, buying DVDs of games from NCAA Sports and seeing more footage via YouTube. So I haven't seen all of his career at GU. But from what I have viewed doesn't suggest he was was more skilled, a better shooter or as automatic at the free throw line as Govan is. Instead what I ave seen was a legit 7-footer who was an athletic beast who could beat anyone up and down the court, a guy who got a lot of his points off of dunks and ally-oops. Also I saw a guy who controlled the paint defensively and thus altered games. These reasons make him the FAR better player but they do not in my opinion make him out to be a player with superior offensive skills. And having superior offensive skills doesn't automatically make a player better anyway. Lee Scruggs had more offensive skills and versatility than Jahidi White, RBB and Don Reid but those two guys were better players and had more impact than Scruggs. Getting back to Ewing he definitely showed signs of touch at GU but he didn't become known for his offense (by almost all accounts) until AFTER he entered the NBA. He obviously had the faceup skill all along but he wasn't asked to show it or work on it while in college. That being said his range, in college or the pros, is not as great as Govan's who can knock down three-pointers. Granted I prefer a center like Ewing who dominate inside anyway but still.... I will forgive your youth😉 Patrick had a much wider variety of offensive skills. Finger rolls, putbacks, 12-15 foot jumpers turning left OR right, hook shots. His YouTube highlights are most likely monster dunks, but his offensive game was far better than Jessie's. But I am not trying to downplay where Govan is right now. I love what he gives us when he plays well, he can elevate our team to a Top 20 level if he keeps it up. Oh, Ewing had much better hands to receive the ball, too.
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Post by HometownHoya on Dec 23, 2016 18:08:56 GMT -5
Great win. Still room for improvement but the key is that this team is improving.
I'm estatic that we're actually having a legitimate discussion about Ewing vs Govan. I personally don't think it's much of a debate but hey, can't complain when your current players are being compared to one of the best all time. Hopefully Tre's shot comes back so we can compare him to Jon Wallace.
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zxhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,716
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Post by zxhoya on Dec 23, 2016 18:14:02 GMT -5
When comparing players in GU history, its best that Patrick Aloysius Ewing Sr. be left off the list of players to be compared. He is The Greatest Player in Georgetown University history. and one the greatest college basketball players ever to play, arguably top 10. imo
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Post by trillesthoya on Dec 23, 2016 19:38:01 GMT -5
When comparing players in GU history, its best that Patrick Aloysius Ewing Sr. be left off the list of players to be compared. He is The Greatest Player in Georgetown University history. and one the greatest college basketball players ever to play, arguably top 10. imo Yeah... I get the point they're trying to make about Jessie being more versatile with his range and whatnot, but it's a weird argument to make. Sure, just about any center in today's game is more versatile than the centers of old just because that's the way the game has gone. Doesn't really make comparisons between these different generations fair, no one was asking Pat to chuck it up from deep. We were asking him to body every single person in his way, which imo he was the best at in the history of college basketball.
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Post by jamaicahoya on Dec 23, 2016 21:30:42 GMT -5
Get back to me when Jessie gets us to the Final Four and the championship game.
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Post by trillesthoya on Dec 23, 2016 21:34:17 GMT -5
Get back to me when Jessie gets us to the Final Four and the championship game. bookmarking this comment for april
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Post by stafford72 on Dec 23, 2016 21:58:35 GMT -5
How about strength and elevation?? Pat had more ability as a freshman than Govan will ever know. Also, three trips to the final four.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,079
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Post by sleepy on Dec 23, 2016 22:09:23 GMT -5
The argument was never who is a better player, so creating all these strawmen is ignoring the original point.
The argument was simply Govan has the most versatile offensive skill set of a Georgetown center. Ewing, while the greatest Georgetown center is at a major disadvantage because he played in completely different era where centers would have no reason to develop a long range touch or real handle. But it doesn't change the fact he didn't have those skills.
I'd say Monroe is Govans biggest competition in this area and I'd tip my hat to Monroe, simply for his passing ability. IMO Govans weaker in this area than any of Monroe's weakness relative to Govan.
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gunny
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 559
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Post by gunny on Dec 23, 2016 22:27:04 GMT -5
Get back to me when Jessie gets us to the Final Four and the championship game. bookmarking this comment for april How about 3 championship games in 4 years? Come on guys. Is this the same Jessie Govan who so many of your were killing earlier in the season? The same guy who many of you wanted benched in favor of Hayes. THERE IS NO COMPARISON. Let's see if Jessie can keep up his recent performances against Big East competition.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Dec 23, 2016 22:39:51 GMT -5
bookmarking this comment for april How about 3 championship games in 4 years? Come on guys. Is this the same Jessie Govan who so many of your were killing earlier in the season? The same guy who many of you wanted benched in favor of Hayes. THERE IS NO COMPARISON. Let's see if Jessie can keep up his recent performances against Big East competition. I love Govan and what he brings but let's not get ahead of ourselves with the comparisons to those before him. Once he and the team achieves something meaningful, we can then have some discussion.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,079
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Post by sleepy on Dec 23, 2016 23:05:19 GMT -5
How about 3 championship games in 4 years? Come on guys. Is this the same Jessie Govan who so many of your were killing earlier in the season? The same guy who many of you wanted benched in favor of Hayes. THERE IS NO COMPARISON. Let's see if Jessie can keep up his recent performances against Big East competition. I love Govan and what he brings but let's not get ahead of ourselves with the comparisons to those before him. Â Once he and the team achieves something meaningful, we can then have some discussion. Â Please explain the argument you think is being made. I'm not sure you do as it has nothing to do with success.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Dec 23, 2016 23:16:11 GMT -5
I love Govan and what he brings but let's not get ahead of ourselves with the comparisons to those before him. Once he and the team achieves something meaningful, we can then have some discussion. Please explain the argument you think is being made. I'm not sure you do as it has nothing to do with success. There are repeated posts on here about Ewing vs. Govan as the more "versatile" player. You can try to dance around what it is but it's ridiculous. Ewing owned the college game during his stay in college. Govan hasn't accomplished anything. Again, it's ridiculous but I don't discourage the conversation just pointing it out to you.
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Post by reformation on Dec 23, 2016 23:25:59 GMT -5
Nobody who actually saw Ewing play would think this is a serious thread. They are not remotely comparable athletes. Govan has not faced elite defenders like ewing, i doubt he would look very well against them Maybe he is comparable with open set shots and foul shooting but that's about it. Ability to elevate over defenders, go to the rim, turnaround jumper, hook shots etc are all major advantages for ewing.
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zxhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,716
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Post by zxhoya on Dec 23, 2016 23:31:43 GMT -5
The argument was never who is a better player, so creating all these strawmen is ignoring the original point. The argument was simply Govan has the most versatile offensive skill set of a Georgetown center. Ewing, while the greatest Georgetown center is at a major disadvantage because he played in completely different era where centers would have no reason to develop a long range touch or real handle. But it doesn't change the fact he didn't have those skills. I'd say Monroe is Govans biggest competition in this area and I'd tip my hat to Monroe, simply for his passing ability. IMO Govans weaker in this area than any of Monroe's weakness relative to Govan. I definitely understood MCI's points and agree with him mostly. I think Jessie has the most potential of any player we've had in quite a while. From the raw piece of clay that he was as a high school senior to what he is now to what he can become is extremely intriguing and exciting. He has natural offensive instincts and great touch and that can't really be taught. He has to get stronger and improve on the fundamentals, especially defensive angles and rebounding positioning as the center who is the last line of defense. I love that he gets to go against Hayes everyday in practice.
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tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by tashoya on Dec 23, 2016 23:36:53 GMT -5
All possible. IMO, it's a combination of a lack of natural instincts, a lack of fundamentals and a lack of lift. We have big dudes in Govan, Derrickson, Agau and BJ. None of those guys have good lift and don't get off of the floor quickly. Akoy is getting better as he's getting more healthy as is Marcus. But, if you don't have good instincts and below average lift, you're going to lose out to those that have one, the other, or both. Add to it that Govan and Bradley's hands are both a bit questionable and they both, at times, bring the balls down that they do grab and get stripped. When the ball is shot, they're ball watching a lot of the time as opposed to looking to pin a dude on their back. I would be more willing to accept this theory if this problem hadn't been one affecting III's teams for years now. We are talking various players with varying levels of athleticism over an extended time and it doesn't matter. We end up always being disappointed with our rebounding. And btw big men don't have to have lift to be very good to great rebounders. They must be in position, strong enough to hold that position and motivated enough to go after it. Our players get out-rebounded by mid-major teams with players less talented and often enough less "lift" than the guys on our squad. You make a very valid point with regard to boarding being a fairly consistent problem with teams under this coach. This group, however, strikes me as one of the least instinctual that we've seen in recent years when it comes to positioning for rebounding the ball. That's why I mentioned the lift part. It's not nearly as important as positioning but it can assist players who don't get great position. We've seen it go against us in many of our games where a smaller guy with bounce will rise up behind one of our bigs who is positioned too close to the basket and loses the rebound because the smaller dude got up higher. While that's absolutely a positioning issue, that poor positioning could be less detrimental if our guys were grabbing boards well above the rim.
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tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,326
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Post by tashoya on Dec 23, 2016 23:45:21 GMT -5
I don't recall the Ewing Era. I was very young and not interested in college hoops at the time. I had to rely on watching Ewing highlights on TV over the years, buying DVDs of games from NCAA Sports and seeing more footage via YouTube. So I haven't seen all of his career at GU. But from what I have viewed doesn't suggest he was was more skilled, a better shooter or as automatic at the free throw line as Govan is. Instead what I ave seen was a legit 7-footer who was an athletic beast who could beat anyone up and down the court, a guy who got a lot of his points off of dunks and ally-oops. Also I saw a guy who controlled the paint defensively and thus altered games. These reasons make him the FAR better player but they do not in my opinion make him out to be a player with superior offensive skills. And having superior offensive skills doesn't automatically make a player better anyway. Lee Scruggs had more offensive skills and versatility than Jahidi White, RBB and Don Reid but those two guys were better players and had more impact than Scruggs. Getting back to Ewing he definitely showed signs of touch at GU but he didn't become known for his offense (by almost all accounts) until AFTER he entered the NBA. He obviously had the faceup skill all along but he wasn't asked to show it or work on it while in college. That being said his range, in college or the pros, is not as great as Govan's who can knock down three-pointers. Granted I prefer a center like Ewing who dominate inside anyway but still.... I will forgive your youth😉 Patrick had a much wider variety of offensive skills. Finger rolls, putbacks, 12-15 foot jumpers turning left OR right, hook shots. His YouTube highlights are most likely monster dunks, but his offensive game was far better than Jessie's. But I am not trying to downplay where Govan is right now. I love what he gives us when he plays well, he can elevate our team to a Top 20 level if he keeps it up. Oh, Ewing had much better hands to receive the ball, too. You also can't discount the dunks. It's not remotely like all of those were a guard dumping it to Patrick under the basket variety. He'd catch it 10 feet out and hammer it over 2 or 3 dudes. Jessie might wish for that ability for Christmas but, unless there really is a Santa, he's not getting that anytime soon. Regardless, it's a pointless comparison. They are vastly different players in very different eras. For his size at that time, Patrick was an excellent shooter for the role that he played. His role was to be in the paint and own it. The game is quite different now. Jessie wouldn't be as effective in the role Patrick was given and Patrick would be less effective than he was if he was asked to stretch his game behind the 3 point line. But Patrick was the better athlete (even after his knees started betraying him) and had good shot mechanics. I have the feeling that Patrick would have been able to adjust to the modern game better than Jessie would to the game Pat played. Comparing a young Jessie to a HOF Patrick Ewing and having multiple posts back and forth debating the comparisons is really high praise for Jessie. He's coming into his own and it's really fun to watch. I don't know what his ceiling is but that's part of the fun too because he's young and he's a big and those guys tend to develop more slowly. Jessie looks to be breaking out pretty early in his college career and his improved effort in every facet of the game is making it even that much more easy to root like hell for him. Keep it up, young dude!
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Post by HometownHoya on Dec 24, 2016 0:19:26 GMT -5
Jessie needs to improve his hands! Not sure how, maybe an oversized stress ball. He loses too many balls that hit his hands, even when he gets both on the ball.
LJ definitely looked beat at the end of the game but was still going 110%, he was even banging his head on the basket post after he messed up on defense. It's a bit of a concern that he's getting a bit beat after such a long break between games, but I assume they've been going at it in practice. Hopefully the days off for Christmas will return him (and the rest) refreshed.
I'm glad Kaleb is getting minutes but he needs to find his points from the offense or off the boards. His turnovers were mostly as a result of him trying to do too much off the dribble. He has a ton of potential and I bet he'll have a few solid games if he's getting consistent PT.
Glad to see Doc back but he still looks like he's limping at times (although maybe it's just swagger). A knee injury in season is tough and it'll take some luck for him to ever get truely healthy this season. His shots looked good though. As long as his knee can handle it, I think he should be getting the minutes over Agau.
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