tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Dec 23, 2016 8:40:00 GMT -5
Props to Mulmore, Campbell, Mosely, Peak, etc who made breaking the press look routine tonight. They've clearly been practicing. You wouldn't have guessed it based on how easily the Hoyas handled the press, but UNCG's defense is top 25 in the nation in turnover percentage, ahead of teams like Louisville and VCU. That was a fantastic job by the Hoya guards. No disrespect intended but keep in mind the level of competition for UNCG so far. They played Wake close and that's about it as far as teams that are traditionally strong. UNCG and Louisville's presses look nothing alike.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Dec 23, 2016 9:08:43 GMT -5
I am now really intrigued to see how we start the BE season. Away game at Marquette is one I think we need to get. They look to be really balanced like us with good inside out play. Cheatham, Fisher & Johnson lead the way. Johnson has killed us a few times in the past. I look forward to an opening W and a chance to upset X to keep the streak alive.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 23, 2016 9:10:50 GMT -5
All possible. IMO, it's a combination of a lack of natural instincts, a lack of fundamentals and a lack of lift. We have big dudes in Govan, Derrickson, Agau and BJ. None of those guys have good lift and don't get off of the floor quickly. Akoy is getting better as he's getting more healthy as is Marcus. But, if you don't have good instincts and below average lift, you're going to lose out to those that have one, the other, or both. Add to it that Govan and Bradley's hands are both a bit questionable and they both, at times, bring the balls down that they do grab and get stripped. When the ball is shot, they're ball watching a lot of the time as opposed to looking to pin a dude on their back. I would be more willing to accept this theory if this problem hadn't been one affecting III's teams for years now. We are talking various players with varying levels of athleticism over an extended time and it doesn't matter. We end up always being disappointed with our rebounding. And btw big men don't have to have lift to be very good to great rebounders. They must be in position, strong enough to hold that position and motivated enough to go after it. Our players get out-rebounded by mid-major teams with players less talented and often enough less "lift" than the guys on our squad.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 23, 2016 9:58:41 GMT -5
I mentioned this before and I think it is a good time to do so again. Govan may be the most offensively gifted center the program has ever had. No, not best center. Not even close. It goes without saying that he also hasn't been close to having the most impact of any of the program's centers. But in terms of offensive gifts what he brings to the court is outstanding. He is an elite shooter. Period. From all distances (short range, mid range, long range) he looks comfortable and fluid and he MAKES his shots. He does this at all angles too, he isn't limited to only hitting shots at a straight line at the top of the key. What's more he can knock down free throws like a guard. His three point percentage is no joke. He shot 50% from behind the line last season and is right now shooting 70% this season. Granted this is a limited selection we are looking at and I doubt he could sustain such a high percentage if he really increased his volume of attempts, but I feel confident that he would stay above 40% at this level and even the next. He is in many regards a perfect 5 for the current way basketball is played.
Also Govan's driving ability is at least as good as Zo's when he was at Georgetown. Like Zo he can only drive with one hand and he doesn't have great speed to blow by most guys, but with those giant steps and a solid handle he can get to the basket somewhat fluidly and is able to finish with that length of his.
Perhaps the most criminally underrated aspect of his game is his postup skills. He is highly effective in the paint despite all the complaints about him missing some bunnies. He has a legit hook shoot and he has shown glimpses of outstanding footwork via dropsteps, combination maneuvers, reversals, etc. He is strong enough to hold his spot in the paint and long enough to score over any defender. What thrills me the most however is that he appears to have grasped the concept of using glass for buckets unlike his Hoya center predecessors.
I know, I know. Govan at this moment can't be mentioned in the same breath of Ewing, Mutombo, Mourning, Harrington, Hibbert and Monroe. But he is now in striking distance of senior Henry Sims and advancing rapidly. He needs to finish stronger and do so more consistently (its promising to see though that his 2-pt fg% has really jumped so far). I don't see him ever being a great defender like some of the more heralded Hoya big men but if he can at least be solid enough to not be a detriment that would be helpful. His rebounding is still a question mark but he's starting to show life on that front. The same can be said of his passing which has seen improvement too. He's not turning the ball over as much anymore as well. Regardless of competition this has easily been his best stretch in a Hoya uniform. I think he is on the verge of putting up big numbers on a regular basis.
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ahoya2
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Post by ahoya2 on Dec 23, 2016 9:59:06 GMT -5
Was at game and agree with aleutian. The time practicing has made a big difference. -Defense much improved especially the high screens that in the pat resulted in clean 3s. Some lack of adjustment after the 5 or 4 cut off their gurard rotations up top but still much improved. Guards except Tre fighting across the high screens. Moseley's ability to stay in front of a fast guard is refreshing. Peak also. He plays fast and hard the whole game. -Ball movement and getting up court against the press was really good except when Tre and Johnson were in the game. Tre dribbling around out front infuriating. -With the transfer of Isaac the bigs seems to have a good rotation and better appreciation of their roles. As pointed out by others, Derrickson much more mobile and aggressivley blocking out underneath. Govan is still a "big puppy" but will get stronger. Agau getting quicker with his rebuilt knee every week Most sustained improvement in one of our teams in a c ouple years. There will be BE hiccups.
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bigskyhoya
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Post by bigskyhoya on Dec 23, 2016 11:17:19 GMT -5
Agree that Jessie is highly skilled offensive player. The biggest issue with him is that he often holds the ball too long down low, before he makes his move, and then he is double teamed and in trouble. I did not see much of that in the last game so hopefully he has made an adjustment.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Dec 23, 2016 11:18:37 GMT -5
I mentioned this before and I think it is a good time to do so again. Govan may be the most offensively gifted center the program has ever had. No, not best center. Not even close. It goes without saying that he also hasn't been close to having the most impact of any of the program's centers. But in terms of offensive gifts what he brings to the court is outstanding. He is an elite shooter. Period. From all distances (short range, mid range, long range) he looks comfortable and fluid and he MAKES his shots. He does this at all angles too, he isn't limited to only hitting shots at a straight line at the top of the key. What's more he can knock down free throws like a guard. His three point percentage is no joke. He shot 50% from behind the line last season and is right now shooting 70% this season. Granted this is a limited selection we are looking at and I doubt he could sustain such a high percentage if he really increased his volume of attempts, but I feel confident that he would stay above 40% at this level and even the next. He is in many regards a perfect 5 for the current way basketball is played. Also Govan's driving ability is at least as good as Zo's when he was at Georgetown. Like Zo he can only drive with one hand and he doesn't have great speed to blow by most guys, but with those giant steps and a solid handle he can get to the basket somewhat fluidly and is able to finish with that length of his. Perhaps the most criminally underrated aspect of his game is his postup skills. He is highly effective in the paint despite all the complaints about him missing some bunnies. He has a legit hook shoot and he has shown glimpses of outstanding footwork via dropsteps, combination maneuvers, reversals, etc. He is strong enough to hold his spot in the paint and long enough to score over any defender. What thrills me the most however is that he appears to have grasped the concept of using glass for buckets unlike his Hoya center predecessors. I know, I know. Govan at this moment can't be mentioned in the same breath of Ewing, Mutombo, Mourning, Harrington, Hibbert and Monroe. But he is now in striking distance of senior Henry Sims and advancing rapidly. He needs to finish stronger and do so more consistently (its promising to see though that his 2-pt fg% has really jumped so far). I don't see him ever being a great defender like some of the more heralded Hoya big men but if he can at least be solid enough to not be a detriment that would be helpful. His rebounding is still a question mark but he's starting to show life on that front. The same can be said of his passing which has seen improvement too. He's not turning the ball over as much anymore as well. Regardless of competition this has easily been his best stretch in a Hoya uniform. I think he is on the verge of putting up big numbers on a regular basis. More offensively gifted than Patrick??!! Other than the 21+ footer, I don't see anything Jessie could do as well as Ewing. Granted Patrick's production was more limited because of the weapons he had around him, but come on MCI, really?
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Dec 23, 2016 11:27:50 GMT -5
I mentioned this before and I think it is a good time to do so again. Govan may be the most offensively gifted center the program has ever had. No, not best center. Not even close. It goes without saying that he also hasn't been close to having the most impact of any of the program's centers. But in terms of offensive gifts what he brings to the court is outstanding. He is an elite shooter. Period. From all distances (short range, mid range, long range) he looks comfortable and fluid and he MAKES his shots. He does this at all angles too, he isn't limited to only hitting shots at a straight line at the top of the key. What's more he can knock down free throws like a guard. His three point percentage is no joke. He shot 50% from behind the line last season and is right now shooting 70% this season. Granted this is a limited selection we are looking at and I doubt he could sustain such a high percentage if he really increased his volume of attempts, but I feel confident that he would stay above 40% at this level and even the next. He is in many regards a perfect 5 for the current way basketball is played. Also Govan's driving ability is at least as good as Zo's when he was at Georgetown. Like Zo he can only drive with one hand and he doesn't have great speed to blow by most guys, but with those giant steps and a solid handle he can get to the basket somewhat fluidly and is able to finish with that length of his. Perhaps the most criminally underrated aspect of his game is his postup skills. He is highly effective in the paint despite all the complaints about him missing some bunnies. He has a legit hook shoot and he has shown glimpses of outstanding footwork via dropsteps, combination maneuvers, reversals, etc. He is strong enough to hold his spot in the paint and long enough to score over any defender. What thrills me the most however is that he appears to have grasped the concept of using glass for buckets unlike his Hoya center predecessors. I know, I know. Govan at this moment can't be mentioned in the same breath of Ewing, Mutombo, Mourning, Harrington, Hibbert and Monroe. But he is now in striking distance of senior Henry Sims and advancing rapidly. He needs to finish stronger and do so more consistently (its promising to see though that his 2-pt fg% has really jumped so far). I don't see him ever being a great defender like some of the more heralded Hoya big men but if he can at least be solid enough to not be a detriment that would be helpful. His rebounding is still a question mark but he's starting to show life on that front. The same can be said of his passing which has seen improvement too. He's not turning the ball over as much anymore as well. Regardless of competition this has easily been his best stretch in a Hoya uniform. I think he is on the verge of putting up big numbers on a regular basis. More offensively gifted than Patrick??!! Other than the 21+ footer, I don't see anything Jessie could do as well as Ewing. Granted Patrick's production was more limited because of the weapons he had around him, but come on MCI, really? Not taking a position on this one but to play Devil's Advocate - was Patrick really THAT talented offensively as college player? He was a defensive force beyond compare, but I don't know if at least the freshman/sophomore Ewing had that much of an offensive repertoire...
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 23, 2016 11:39:54 GMT -5
More offensively gifted than Patrick??!! Other than the 21+ footer, I don't see anything Jessie could do as well as Ewing. Granted Patrick's production was more limited because of the weapons he had around him, but come on MCI, really? I don't recall the Ewing Era. I was very young and not interested in college hoops at the time. I had to rely on watching Ewing highlights on TV over the years, buying DVDs of games from NCAA Sports and seeing more footage via YouTube. So I haven't seen all of his career at GU. But from what I have viewed doesn't suggest he was was more skilled, a better shooter or as automatic at the free throw line as Govan is. Instead what I ave seen was a legit 7-footer who was an athletic beast who could beat anyone up and down the court, a guy who got a lot of his points off of dunks and ally-oops. Also I saw a guy who controlled the paint defensively and thus altered games. These reasons make him the FAR better player but they do not in my opinion make him out to be a player with superior offensive skills. And having superior offensive skills doesn't automatically make a player better anyway. Lee Scruggs had more offensive skills and versatility than Jahidi White, RBB and Don Reid but those two guys were better players and had more impact than Scruggs. Getting back to Ewing he definitely showed signs of touch at GU but he didn't become known for his offense (by almost all accounts) until AFTER he entered the NBA. He obviously had the faceup skill all along but he wasn't asked to show it or work on it while in college. That being said his range, in college or the pros, is not as great as Govan's who can knock down three-pointers. Granted I prefer a center like Ewing who dominate inside anyway but still....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2016 12:17:06 GMT -5
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 23, 2016 12:42:46 GMT -5
There's not even another BE team in the top 40?
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Post by trillesthoya on Dec 23, 2016 12:48:26 GMT -5
Thank Peak and Pryor for this. They flat out get to the rim. The fact that our bigs are excellent shooters too definitely helps. Free throws could be the difference maker come big east play. side note: does grosse want us to start calling them the P+P Buckets Factory? I like it but it doesn't roll off the tongue very well.
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Post by dungeon ball on Dec 23, 2016 13:27:47 GMT -5
Thank Peak and Pryor for this. They flat out get to the rim. The fact that our bigs are excellent shooters too definitely helps. Free throws could be the difference maker come big east play. side note: does grosse want us to start calling them the P+P Buckets Factory? I like it but it doesn't roll off the tongue very well. Better than a "O.P.P." reference I guess
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 23, 2016 13:31:54 GMT -5
I don't recall the Ewing Era. I was very young and not interested in college hoops at the time. I had to rely on watching Ewing highlights on TV over the years, buying DVDs of games from NCAA Sports and seeing more footage via YouTube. So I haven't seen all of his career at GU. But from what I have viewed doesn't suggest he was was more skilled, a better shooter or as automatic at the free throw line as Govan is. This shouldn't even be in discussion. With the possible exception of Ralph Sampson, Patrick Ewing was the dominant college center of his generation, bar none--not (H)Akeem Olajuwon, not Karl Malone, not Mel Turpin, not Keith Lee, none of them. Ewing shot 63% from the floor and was all but impenetrable on defense. Free throws weren't the priority for the Thompson teams of that era--in large part, GU didn't need free throws to win its games. The team averaged 65% on the line and Ewing averaged 62%. Jessie Govan is a year and a half into his college career and there is room to improve, but the two are not in the same discussion. After 45 games, Govan averages 7.8 points and 4.8 rebounds a game--good for 29th in the Big East in scoring. In his first 45 games, Patrick Ewing was already an All-American and averaged 12.8 points and 7.7 rebounds. One more stat: in his first 45 games, the 6-11 Govan has 49 blocks. In 45 games, Patrick Ewing had over 130.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Dec 23, 2016 13:35:01 GMT -5
I am now really intrigued to see how we start the BE season. Away game at Marquette is one I think we need to get. They look to be really balanced like us with good inside out play. Cheatham, Fisher & Johnson lead the way. Johnson has killed us a few times in the past. I look forward to an opening W and a chance to upset X to keep the streak alive. What gives me faith in this team is how summarily they dealt with Syracuse in the Dome. I have a lot of confidence in this team to play in front of a hostile crowd. I think we match up really well with Marquette. They don't have the twin towers anymore, and based on what I have seen, they are not deadly in any area. Of course they still play with a certain amount of toughness and tenacity, perhaps based on their coach's personality. with a combination of Peak's slashing to the basket, Pryor and Derrickson knocking down three's, and Govan hitting the short jumper and occasional three we should be okay. Of course, we can't dismiss the fact that this is an away game. But I really like the way we are playing right now. Hopefully, we can keep it going. By the way, I was thrilled to see Govan and Derrickson accompanying Coach at the news conference.
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DallasHoya
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Post by DallasHoya on Dec 23, 2016 13:49:28 GMT -5
I don't recall the Ewing Era. I was very young and not interested in college hoops at the time. I had to rely on watching Ewing highlights on TV over the years, buying DVDs of games from NCAA Sports and seeing more footage via YouTube. So I haven't seen all of his career at GU. But from what I have viewed doesn't suggest he was was more skilled, a better shooter or as automatic at the free throw line as Govan is. This shouldn't even be in discussion. With the possible exception of Ralph Sampson, Patrick Ewing was the dominant college center of his generation, bar none--not (H)Akeem Olajuwon, not Karl Malone, not Mel Turpin, not Keith Lee, none of them. Ewing shot 63% from the floor and was all but impenetrable on defense. Free throws weren't the priority for the Thompson teams of that era--in large part, GU didn't need free throws to win its games. The team averaged 65% on the line and Ewing averaged 62%. Jessie Govan is a year and a half into his college career and there is room to improve, but the two are not in the same discussion. After 45 games, Govan averages 7.8 points and 4.8 rebounds a game--good for 29th in the Big East in scoring. In his first 45 games, Patrick Ewing was already an All-American and averaged 12.8 points and 7.7 rebounds. One more stat: in his first 45 games, the 6-11 Govan has 49 blocks. In 45 games, Patrick Ewing had over 130. Another stat: People always talk about Ewing's performance in the 1982 title game by mentioning the 5 goaltending calls in the first 5 minutes. They forget that Ewing shot 10-15 from the field, 3-3 from the line, for 23 points and 11 rebounds while playing 37 minutes being guarded by Sam Perkins and James Worthy. As a freshman. I really like Govan. He may be an NBA first rounder some day. But last year he averaged less than 7 points per game as a freshman.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 23, 2016 13:55:28 GMT -5
I don't recall the Ewing Era. I was very young and not interested in college hoops at the time. I had to rely on watching Ewing highlights on TV over the years, buying DVDs of games from NCAA Sports and seeing more footage via YouTube. So I haven't seen all of his career at GU. But from what I have viewed doesn't suggest he was was more skilled, a better shooter or as automatic at the free throw line as Govan is. This shouldn't even be in discussion. With the possible exception of Ralph Sampson, Patrick Ewing was the dominant college center of his generation, bar none--not (H)Akeem Olajuwon, not Karl Malone, not Mel Turpin, not Keith Lee, none of them. Ewing shot 63% from the floor and was all but impenetrable on defense. Free throws weren't the priority for the Thompson teams of that era--in large part, GU didn't need free throws to win its games. The team averaged 65% on the line and Ewing averaged 62%. Jessie Govan is a year and a half into his college career and there is room to improve, but the two are not in the same discussion. After 45 games, Govan averages 7.8 points and 4.8 rebounds a game--good for 29th in the Big East in scoring. In his first 45 games, Patrick Ewing was already an All-American and averaged 12.8 points and 7.7 rebounds. One more stat: in his first 45 games, the 6-11 Govan has 49 blocks. In 45 games, Patrick Ewing had over 130. It's like you're participating in this discussion without truly reading the points made. No one is calling Govan a better player or putting him in Ewing's league. No one is doubting Ewing's standing in college basketball history and certainly no one is suggesting that Govan could come close to that legacy. The question though is whether Govan can do things more on offense than Ewing or the other other great Hoya big men, does he have a more varied attack? Don't toss me Ewing's fg% percentage when much of that was the result of dunking the ball on people's heads. Dunking is pretty much all about athleticism unless you're displaying skill by dribbling coast-to-coast before the slam. Don't toss me points per game considering Ewing was on the floor for far more minutes by this time in his career. Ewing was on the floor longer because he was a confident, highly athletic STUD athlete who NEVER hurt his team on the defensive side of the ball. And Ewing had a coach who held a strong philosophy about getting the big man the ball. Those factors led to the minutes that made Ewing a more prolific scorer IMO but that still does't make him as all-around gifted on the offensive side of the ball. Sure I suppose an argument can be made that Ewing could do more things and score in more ways with the ball in his hands, but I don't think the examples you gave prove that point.
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vv83
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Post by vv83 on Dec 23, 2016 14:07:02 GMT -5
This shouldn't even be in discussion. With the possible exception of Ralph Sampson, Patrick Ewing was the dominant college center of his generation, bar none--not (H)Akeem Olajuwon, not Karl Malone, not Mel Turpin, not Keith Lee, none of them. Ewing shot 63% from the floor and was all but impenetrable on defense. Free throws weren't the priority for the Thompson teams of that era--in large part, GU didn't need free throws to win its games. The team averaged 65% on the line and Ewing averaged 62%. Jessie Govan is a year and a half into his college career and there is room to improve, but the two are not in the same discussion. After 45 games, Govan averages 7.8 points and 4.8 rebounds a game--good for 29th in the Big East in scoring. In his first 45 games, Patrick Ewing was already an All-American and averaged 12.8 points and 7.7 rebounds. One more stat: in his first 45 games, the 6-11 Govan has 49 blocks. In 45 games, Patrick Ewing had over 130. No one is calling Govan a better player or putting him in Ewing's league. No one is doubting Ewing's standing in college basketball history and certainly no one is suggesting that Govan could come close to that legacy. The question though is whether Govan can do things more on offense than Ewing or the other other great Hoya big men, does he have a more varied attack? Don't toss me Ewing's fg% percentage when much of that was the result of dunking the ball on people's heads. Dunking is pretty much all about athleticism unless you're displaying skill by dribbling coast-to-coast before the slam. Don't toss me points per game considering Ewing was on the floor for far more minutes by this time in his career. Ewing was on the floor longer because he was a confident, highly athletic STUD athlete who NEVER hurt his team on the defensive side of the ball. And Ewing had a coach who held a strong philosophy about getting the big man the ball. Those factors led to the minutes that made Ewing a more prolific scorer IMO but that still does't make him as all-around gifted on the offensive side of the ball. Sure I suppose an argument can be made that Ewing could do more things and score in more ways with the ball in his hands, but I don't think the examples you gave prove that point. I think the key development for Jessie over the past 4 games or so has little to do with his scoring. He has been able to put the ball in the basket in a variety of ways going back to high school. The thing that has me excited is what he is doing with the ball when he does not shoot. He does not seem nearly as overwhelmed when multiple defenders pressure him. He has been stronger with the ball, not turning it over the way he often did previously. And the passing last night was tremendous. He made 3 or 4 classic princeton back door passes from the top of the key/the low post - hitting cutters in the lane for easy layups I have really doubted that Jessie would ever be able to do this kind of stuff, he just did not seem to have a natural feel for what to do when he was not shooting. I would be happy if he can just continue the low-turnover play. But if he continues to pass the way he did last night, in addition to his shooting/scoring skills - then he becomes a really high level offensive center. Defensively - he seems to be getting better at contesting shots at the rim without fouling. He is not an explosive athlete, so he is never going to be a high level defender. But if he improves his technique and continues to develop defensive discipline, he can provide some rim protection - something we have not had much of in recent years, especially last year. Overall, outside of a few breakdowns that led to easy baskets, the defense last night was as solid as any defense we have played in the last few years. If we can defend like that consistently, we'll be competitive in BE play, and have every opportunity to make the tournament.
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HoyaChris
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Post by HoyaChris on Dec 23, 2016 14:36:00 GMT -5
This must be MCI's day to "enrage" the Dallas contingent on the board, between DFW, DallasHoya and myself. I am absolutely certain that if MCI had seen Patrick play in college he would not suggest an equivalency with Jesse's offensive game.
Context is important here. Patrick played without the shot clock and without the three point shot. Consequently, defenses were packed in and quality bigs seldom got the ball without having their hands attacked from a collapsing wing or guard. In the 1982 Championship game that collapsing wing was Michael Jordan.
Michael Jordan also provides an instructive comparison to put Patrick's scoring in context. It is often remarked that Dean Smith was the only man who could hold Michael Jordan under 20. In Jordan's last year, 1983-4, he averaged 19.6 ppg. That same year Patrick averaged 16.4. When you score at a rate equivalent to 83% of Michael Jordan, you are a great offensive player.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Dec 23, 2016 14:49:16 GMT -5
This must be MCI's day to "enrage" the Dallas contingent on the board, between DFW, DallasHoya and myself. I am absolutely certain that if MCI had seen Patrick play in college he would not suggest an equivalency with Jesse's offensive game. Context is important here. Patrick played without the shot clock and without the three point shot. Consequently, defenses were packed in and quality bigs seldom got the ball without having their hands attacked from a collapsing wing or guard. In the 1982 Championship game that collapsing wing was Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan also provides an instructive comparison to put Patrick's scoring in context. It is often remarked that Dean Smith was the only man who could hold Michael Jordan under 20. In Jordan's last year, 1983-4, he averaged 19.6 ppg. That same year Patrick averaged 16.4. When you score at a rate equivalent to 83% of Michael Jordan, you are a great offensive player. Hmmm so combined with his defensive efficiency, by my calculations Pat is 7% better than mj?
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