SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 18,305
|
Post by SSHoya on Feb 28, 2015 15:29:04 GMT -5
I am finally accepting the fact that we are a bubble Top 25 team. Teams at that level, will invariably win some games in a row, which will get the fan base dreaming of a run to the Final Four. They will then, most certainly lose a couple that crush expectations. We will get a 6 or 7 NCAA seed, and if we are really lucky, will play well at the right time and escape the first weekend, before losing in the rd of 16. Just as likely, we go down in round one . Just had the same discussion with another Hoya fan. Good enough to get into the NCAAs but not good enough to survive beyond the first weekend.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 15:32:04 GMT -5
I am finally accepting the fact that we are a bubble Top 25 team. Teams at that level, will invariably win some games in a row, which will get the fan base dreaming of a run to the Final Four. They will then, most certainly lose a couple that crush expectations. We will get a 6 or 7 NCAA seed, and if we are really lucky, will play well at the right time and escape the first weekend, before losing in the rd of 16. Just as likely, we go down in round one . Just had the same discussion with another Hoya fan. Good enough to get into the NCAAs but not good enough to survive beyond the first weekend. So, no different than any Hoya team since 2007?
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,901
|
Post by EtomicB on Feb 28, 2015 15:33:49 GMT -5
Handful of thoughts: (1) I thought St.J. played very well on both ends of the court but particularly on offense. They ran effectively and finished when they did. They made tough shots at the rim. They made their open threes and some contested threes. And they (contrary to the conventional wisdom) properly took air out of the ball fairly early. (It's always interesting how people complain about that when it doesn't work but never acknowledge when it does.) (2) I thought their mid-range game really led to a lot of our foul trouble. We had to stay up on their drivers since they were effectively stopping and hitting medium range jumpers. (3) Our defense though was pretty poor overall. The zone didn't look very good (which is why I assume we don't see it too often). And we just fail to move our feet a lot. It's not just Josh (though it certainly includes him). (4) I can't say enough about Hopper this game. One thing I really, really liked that I haven't seen him do previously was that he dribbled out of the paint probably ten times when he had the ball. He didn't try to back his man down but realized, instead, that doing so isn't his game. He's a great rim protector, particularly for his size. DSR, obviously, played very well also. (5) I can't believe people are talking about our not pressing. I saw us do it four times. Twice they broke it easily, and twice they got wide open threes that they made. Again: credit the Johnnies and Lavin. They obviously knew we had done it to them last game, they obviously worked on it, and whatever they worked on was successful. They made a successful adjustment. ( 6) PW is just lost offensively. Just so much tentativeness driving the ball (that reverse attempt?) and on the glass. And the outside shots completely lack confidence right now.(7) Josh has to be smart, but the rest of the team does too. The entry passes were abysmal. Abysmal! Throwing to the wrong hand, forcing the ball, not giving it to him the couple times he was open. We really need to work out what we're going to do when he's doubled before getting the ball. Quick reversals for open shots or even ball fakes to get rid of the double. We're going to continue to see it. Bottom line: We lost to a decent team on the road that has been playing well and was desperate for a win on Senior Day -- when their seniors have never been to the NCAAs. I mean, it's never good to be out-efforted (and we were), but it's certainly understandable that we got 125% effort from St. John's. Good post besides point 6.. I'll admit I'm a big fan of PW and I know his game has dropped off during conference play but how can you mention White's play but not Peak's? Peak very rarely finishes now & can't throw it in the ocean from outside but he gets a pass? White's last jumper from the corner was awful but he was square on the other shots, they're just not dropping.. Frazier mentioned this too but I don't remember White being a big driver of the ball early in the season..
|
|
beenaround
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,474
|
Post by beenaround on Feb 28, 2015 15:36:26 GMT -5
Just had the same discussion with another Hoya fan. Good enough to get into the NCAAs but not good enough to survive beyond the first weekend. So, no different than any Hoya team since 2007? Same results, perhaps. But a few of those teams were much better, during the season, than Bubble Top 25. We've had a couple top 10-15 type teams that obviously under performed in the tourney. Not the case here. IMO, we are just one of a bunch of decent teams with the talent to win a game or two.
|
|
NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,924
|
Post by NCHoya on Feb 28, 2015 15:36:31 GMT -5
Very unpleasant game to attend. The guys were never in it. As much blame we are giving our guys for this loss, I think we need to credit st johns. They played hard from the tip, repeatedly made shots and smothered us defensively. Lavin has wasted a lot of talent on that team. Their record should be much better than it is. I know at home they are tough but sju has some nice parts, even if they lack depth. I would be furious that they have not made a ncaa if I was a sju fan.
Josh had one of those games where he gets frustrated and plays dumb. We need him on the floor to beat better teams. DSR and hops came to play. I am glad Hopkins realizes these are his last few games in a hoya uniform. Trawick played hard but without much in the way of results. Cope looked like the game was going to fast for him.
This game is easily forgotten if we beat butler on Wednesday.
|
|
hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,359
|
Post by hoyaboya on Feb 28, 2015 15:40:10 GMT -5
Nm
|
|
hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,359
|
Post by hoyaboya on Feb 28, 2015 15:44:16 GMT -5
JT3 went home with two timeouts in his pocket. And that includes mistakenly taking one at the end of the first half when he clearly forgot he had already used a TO earlier in the half. I continue to be baffled by his unwillingness to use timeouts to stop runs, allowing games to get out of hand.
|
|
DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,548
|
Post by DanMcQ on Feb 28, 2015 15:44:31 GMT -5
JT3 went home with two timeouts in his pocket. And that includes mistakenly taking one at the end of the first half when he clearly forgot he had already used a TO earlier in the half. I continue to be baffled by his unwillingness to use timeouts to stop runs. Yeah, that's why the Hoyas lost today.
|
|
hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,359
|
Post by hoyaboya on Feb 28, 2015 15:46:16 GMT -5
JT3 went home with two timeouts in his pocket. And that includes mistakenly taking one at the end of the first half when he clearly forgot he had already used a TO earlier in the half. I continue to be baffled by his unwillingness to use timeouts to stop runs. Yeah, that's why the Hoyas lost today. Not saying that's why they lost. Certainly didn't help, though. Do you think JT3 uses timeouts wisely, particularly in games his team is losing?
|
|
DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,548
|
Post by DanMcQ on Feb 28, 2015 15:49:47 GMT -5
I don't like guys who use none and I don't like the Pete Gillen approach where they're all gone by halftime.
That said, timeout usage had zilch to do with outcome today.
|
|
hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,359
|
Post by hoyaboya on Feb 28, 2015 15:52:48 GMT -5
I don't like guys who use none and I don't like the Pete Gillen approach where they're all gone by halftime. That said, timeout usage had zilch to do with outcome today. So you didn't answer the question and repeated the same thing you said before. Got it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 15:54:06 GMT -5
I'm repeatedly frustrated by our inability to fight back when we get down early. We did it against Butler, which was good. But in four of our losses (Nova, 2x Xavier, and today), we got down by double digits and never really threatened. The closest we got in any of those games was 7 (at home vs. X).
|
|
mfk24
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,759
|
Post by mfk24 on Feb 28, 2015 15:54:58 GMT -5
So, no different than any Hoya team since 2007? Same results, perhaps. But a few of those teams were much better, during the season, than Bubble Top 25. We've had a couple top 10-15 type teams that obviously under performed in the tourney. Not the case here. IMO, we are just one of a bunch of decent teams with the talent to win a game or two. I think if most, myself included, had approached the season more realistically, we're about where we should be, but obviously that's hindsight. We are a year away experience wise because of the flaws in our current group of veterans. On paper we're an experienced team but we were going to rely very heavily on production from freshman. I think going forward, the pieces we have on the current roster will fill the voids left by the departing seniors and I think we get more on the whole out of Govan than we have out of Smith simple because he should be able to stay on the floor longer without picking up dumb fouls and he is at least a threat to hit a jumper. But who knows, it depends largely on guys working on their games and their bodies in the off season.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 16:02:08 GMT -5
I don't like guys who use none and I don't like the Pete Gillen approach where they're all gone by halftime. That said, timeout usage had zilch to do with outcome today. JT3 is not the best timeout manager in the country but I agree-- this is not why we lost today. Weirdly enough, we jumped out on them early with two quick trips to the line-- Copeland shot a bad second free throw where he started fading away on the release and then we had a couple bad defensive possessions where we didn't box out on St. Johns's own free throw miss and then gave up an open 2. Instead of coming down the court with the ball up 4-0 with Harrison out, we had no advantage and St. Johns zoomed away after that. Hopkins was fine-- i really can't believe this is even an issue. I'm more concerned with Smith's inability to play without fouling. Some of the calls against him are purely punitive because he's big and he gets mugged all the time on the other end. But he has to deal with that better. However, some of the fouls he makes can only be attributed to him trolling the fan base-- there are a few that are just straight up "i dont give a ....." I want to believe Othella or somebody has talked to him about this but there's been no change throughout the year. Sometimes you just need to let the opposing player have some space, concede the open layup or mid-range jump shot, and don't reach in. Trying to be physical every play is just a recipe for disaster and either scenario-- poor guidance from the bench or Josh ignoring his coaching are troubling. If there is any silver lining, it looks like the BE will get 6 teams in which is a remarkable achievement for this conference. I saw predictions at the beginning of the season that had 3 bids for our league. Also, having St. Johns on the map will get them some publicity in the NYC papers which is huge, especially with the Knicks tanking. Should be a lot of hype for the BE heading into the BET. Also, as much as I hate losing to SJU, these past two seasons have gotten some of the rivalry juice flowing again and I hope it's a series that develops back into what it used to be. Gtown and SJU winning a couple games this March would help that too....
|
|
sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,079
|
Post by sleepy on Feb 28, 2015 16:05:14 GMT -5
Handful of thoughts: (1) I thought St.J. played very well on both ends of the court but particularly on offense. They ran effectively and finished when they did. They made tough shots at the rim. They made their open threes and some contested threes. And they (contrary to the conventional wisdom) properly took air out of the ball fairly early. (It's always interesting how people complain about that when it doesn't work but never acknowledge when it does.) (2) I thought their mid-range game really led to a lot of our foul trouble. We had to stay up on their drivers since they were effectively stopping and hitting medium range jumpers. (3) Our defense though was pretty poor overall. The zone didn't look very good (which is why I assume we don't see it too often). And we just fail to move our feet a lot. It's not just Josh (though it certainly includes him). (4) I can't say enough about Hopper this game. One thing I really, really liked that I haven't seen him do previously was that he dribbled out of the paint probably ten times when he had the ball. He didn't try to back his man down but realized, instead, that doing so isn't his game. He's a great rim protector, particularly for his size. DSR, obviously, played very well also. (5) I can't believe people are talking about our not pressing. I saw us do it four times. Twice they broke it easily, and twice they got wide open threes that they made. Again: credit the Johnnies and Lavin. They obviously knew we had done it to them last game, they obviously worked on it, and whatever they worked on was successful. They made a successful adjustment. ( 6) PW is just lost offensively. Just so much tentativeness driving the ball (that reverse attempt?) and on the glass. And the outside shots completely lack confidence right now.(7) Josh has to be smart, but the rest of the team does too. The entry passes were abysmal. Abysmal! Throwing to the wrong hand, forcing the ball, not giving it to him the couple times he was open. We really need to work out what we're going to do when he's doubled before getting the ball. Quick reversals for open shots or even ball fakes to get rid of the double. We're going to continue to see it. Bottom line: We lost to a decent team on the road that has been playing well and was desperate for a win on Senior Day -- when their seniors have never been to the NCAAs. I mean, it's never good to be out-efforted (and we were), but it's certainly understandable that we got 125% effort from St. John's. Good post besides point 6.. I'll admit I'm a big fan of PW and I know his game has dropped off during conference play but how can you mention White's play but not Peak's? Peak very rarely finishes now & can't throw it in the ocean from outside but he gets a pass? White's last jumper from the corner was awful but he was square on the other shots, they're just not dropping.. Frazier mentioned this too but I don't remember White being a big driver of the ball early in the season.. I think you are both being to hard on the freshman. They are both having trouble getting the ball in the hoop, yes, but the last few games they've improved everything else offensively and defensively. I love Copeland but he kills us defensively if he isn't scoring, the same isn't true for Peak or White.
|
|
SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 18,305
|
Post by SSHoya on Feb 28, 2015 16:07:09 GMT -5
Just had the same discussion with another Hoya fan. Good enough to get into the NCAAs but not good enough to survive beyond the first weekend. So, no different than any Hoya team since 2007? That was, in fact, the tenor of the discussion.
|
|
DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,548
|
Post by DanMcQ on Feb 28, 2015 16:07:25 GMT -5
I don't like guys who use none and I don't like the Pete Gillen approach where they're all gone by halftime. That said, timeout usage had zilch to do with outcome today. So you didn't answer the question and repeated the same thing you said before. Got it. Not going to indulge your cute semantics argument. Disagree with you and I think your complaint is really that you dislike the coach. That work better for you?
|
|
|
Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 28, 2015 16:08:14 GMT -5
JT3 went home with two timeouts in his pocket. And that includes mistakenly taking one at the end of the first half when he clearly forgot he had already used a TO earlier in the half. I continue to be baffled by his unwillingness to use timeouts to stop runs, allowing games to get out of hand. I don't think he took the TO at the end of the half by mistake at all. He wanted to make sure that we ran a good play and got a good shot to try to generate a little momentum after the Johnnies had just scored to go up 13. We did get a very good shot, crashed the boards and got a bucket. So an excellent use of a TO there. As for the second half - SJU never got on a run that required a TO to interrupt it, so made perfect sense to save a couple in case we could get it close near the end.
|
|
hoyajinx
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,350
|
Post by hoyajinx on Feb 28, 2015 16:15:22 GMT -5
I'm repeatedly frustrated by our inability to fight back when we get down early. We did it against Butler, which was good. But in four of our losses (Nova, 2x Xavier, and today), we got down by double digits and never really threatened. The closest we got in any of those games was 7 (at home vs. X). That seems to be the case in BE play, but we battled back a couple of times in non conference. We were down by 12 to both Kansas and Indiana and managed to come back in both. Unfortunately against Kansas we came up short in the end. I understand what you mean though. It's particularly frustrating when we squander good leads (see both PC games).
|
|
Dhall
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,679
|
Post by Dhall on Feb 28, 2015 16:50:58 GMT -5
When we call time outs, we usually turn it over. When other teams call time outs, they score against us or get fouled. I'm fine not taking time outs.
|
|