SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 14, 2013 16:38:58 GMT -5
Does everybody still have Smith in next June's NBA Draft? I am not confident Smith will be draft-worthy by March (and yes, I know it was a sarcastic question), but I think people are being too hard on the guy otherwise. Sure, Smith had a poor game last night, but he clearly showed in the Oregon game that he can score (and Oregon is a better team than Wright State), and we'll need as much scoring as we can get this year. As I said, part of the reason DSR and Starks were able to do so well is because Smith was garnering so much attention. Even if he doesn't score 25 a game, he brings value that doesn't show directly in the stat sheet. Whether he loses so much on defense as to negate the offensive benefit is not clear, but I am doubtful. Eventually, we might have enough statistics to get a definitive answer there. He struggled last night because he was triple teamed in the post. When we had Markel, DSR and Cameron out there, that led to a parade of threes. When we had Trawick, Bowen and Lubick with him, it led to a lot of turnovers. Hopefully, we will always position a couple of shooters near him.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 14, 2013 16:40:10 GMT -5
Moses isn't much on offense, but he's a strong rebounder and is our best interior defender against certain teams. He has value this year. I'm not a huge Bowen fan like most, but he's shown more than Domingo. I guess I just think that there's a certain level of competence that needs to be shown in practice to earn game time PT. I'm for winning this year, and from all I can see, Moses actually will help towards that, if not a ton. Bowen is more likely to help than Domingo. If I thought their contributions in game were similar -- within 10-20%, I'd agree with you. But I don't see that right now. Now, Cameron should be playing a ton. There's massive offensive upside there. Loved his post up move as well. If he can get better at PT, he helps to redefine the team. We can get a real rotation back at guard, get bigger at the 3 and make sure we always have 2 shooters on the floor. I still think you're looking at it the wrong way SF... Moses & Bowen aren't keys to success for this team this year, they both could conceivably sit for 5 or 6 straight games or play 5 or 6 straight and the production level will be the same.. We know what consistent playing time from them gets you but we don't have that answer for Domingo or Hayes.. I would like to find out.. If it doesn't work and they bust out, go back to the status quo... As for Cameron I agree wholeheartedly!! Get him on the court as much as possible.. I don't think we disagree conceptually. I think we disagree on our evaluation of Moses and Bowen in terms of contributions.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 14, 2013 16:41:19 GMT -5
Camerons defense is and always will be below average, athleticism on the defensive side of the ball matters… I hope people are not expecting him to help much on that side, he will always have a problem guarding in space unless miracles happen... We compensated for Jon Wallace against PGs. We can make it so Cameron has enough helps versus 3s.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 14, 2013 16:41:46 GMT -5
There is no doubt that our defense has been a problem in the last two games, but I think our perspective might be a little bit skewed because for the last two seasons: (a) our offense struggled to score consistently and went through frequent droughts of no scoring, and (b) our defense was operating on an elite or near-elite level. Thus, as fans, we are accustomed to seeing a REALLY good defense, so the worse offense we are seeing this year seems really awful.
Josh Smith aside, is our defense really any worse than it was in 2011, for example? I don't recall the Wright/Clark/Freeman defense being that good, yet it was still 56th in the country. Obviously, we want to be better than that, but I'm not sure we have to be that much better to have a really good, successful team.
It's going to be a different dynamic this year. Last year, we scored 82 points or more only three times, and one of those was the overtime Indiana game. This year, we have already scored 82 or 88 in the first two games. Our wins are going to almost surely be more offensive-minded this year than last year. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but if we can combine that with better defense, then look out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 16:58:56 GMT -5
Camerons defense is and always will be below average, athleticism on the defensive side of the ball matters… I hope people are not expecting him to help much on that side, he will always have a problem guarding in space unless miracles happen... We compensated for Jon Wallace against PGs. We can make it so Cameron has enough helps versus 3s. You had 4 above average defenders around Wallace and a 7’2 Center protecting the rim...
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 14, 2013 17:07:57 GMT -5
We compensated for Jon Wallace against PGs. We can make it so Cameron has enough helps versus 3s. You had 4 above average defenders around Wallace and a 7’2 Center protecting the rim... Oh, I know. I don't think our defense has any shot to be as good as 08 or last year. There's no doubt. But it can be better than it has been.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Nov 14, 2013 17:32:56 GMT -5
You're just a glass half full person. I don't see his contributions, within the context of this team, in the same way that you do unfortunately. I also don't just come to conclusions about how a player has improved in the offseason just off one game. Certainly not about someone who has played sparsely in the past while being injured for 1.5 years buried in a deep rotation. III gets his players ready to play, simple as that. It's just that some years the emphasis is to get the leaders their touches. Every coach on every team in every year puts an emphasis on getting "the leaders" (which I'm assuming means best offensive players) their touches. Doing anything other than that would be insanity and result in very poor success rates. As far as Bowen's contributions, I don't really think he makes many, if any, positive contributions to this team. Maybe the occasional putback dunk or tip in. And even those are few and far between. Does he really hurt us on the floor? No I suppose he doesn't. But if all you can say about a kid with that kind of athleticism is that he doesn't hurt the team when he plays, then that's disappointing imo. All I'm saying is with the guys behind him in the rotation, I think it's time to turn the page on Aaron. Domingo still has a chance to be a contributor for the next 2+ years. Cameron already looks like he's going to contribute as a freshman, at least offensively. I feel we would be better served letting both of those guys eat into Bowen's minutes. Yes but Bowen is much less shook than Domingo and that's why he plays
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Nov 14, 2013 17:34:25 GMT -5
Did anyone who is clamoring for Domingo or Hayes watch them play in Kenner? To be kind, they looked like they still need quite a bit of work.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Nov 14, 2013 17:38:54 GMT -5
The year we went to the final four while we had better athletes but the defense that we played against a pretty weak Fairfield team in Bridgeport the night before Thanksgiving and through most of december was just as treadfull as the first 2 games.To be honest it was a good month later before we started to see real improvemnt. By february we had somthing that year. Then it was a combination of man and variety of 2-3 ,3-2 and various matchup zones. The zone then totally fell out of favor with the staff when we couldn't play it well in 2011. Not sure what the changes will be but I'm certain we will many changes over the next 6 weeks some will be more painful than others. usually I'd be we the trust the staff group. this year i'm not sure we have or will have a clear answer.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Nov 14, 2013 19:36:00 GMT -5
Let's give the season a few games before declaring someone ready or not ready to contribute. I believe that growth comes through experience. We will see. Smith is farther along than I expected. Cameron is what I expected on offense and defense. In 15 games that could be very different. As for Bowen, Domingo and Hayes, no comparison is fair. Bowen has two years of very little game experience, Domingo one year of little experience and Hayes one year of almost no experience. Perhaps the coach knows something we do not and that explains their playing time. However, the short rotation is not new to this collection of players. It is the preferred style of JT III. As for giving up or not on players, having watched the same two games as everyone else, I see no basis for making any conclusions about any of the players other than the top 6. Look at Smith and the wide disparity in his play in the two games. Ditto for DSR and Starks. It is simply way too early for all these conclusions about who can or will contribute off the bench.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Nov 14, 2013 19:54:39 GMT -5
I just saw this. I don't know if somebody has reported yet, but Father McFadden missed his first announcing gig last night since 1973, because of illness.
EDIT: Sorry to contribute to clutter.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Nov 14, 2013 19:57:14 GMT -5
I just saw this. I don't know if somebody has reported yet, but Father McFadder missed his first announcing gig last night since 1973, because of illness There's already a separate thread about it.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Nov 14, 2013 20:56:49 GMT -5
Way too early to make declarations about whether any bench player is ready for the rotation or not. I will admit I was encouraged by Cameron's play and his defense can be compensated by others.
However, one thing I know, it will be fun watching Markel Starks this season. He is playing at a very high level and I look forward to seeing more great play from him all season.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 14, 2013 20:58:57 GMT -5
Maybe the reason the coach, who sees these kids in practice everyday, knows that if Domingo and Hayes were playing their impacts would be negative as opposed to Moses and Bowen who have relatively no impact except for occasional spurts of positive contributions. There is also the possibility that Domingo and Hayes don't have the mental toughness to be thrown into the fire and any mistakes they make in game could be harmful to their development. I understand the sentiment of wanting to give others a chance when Moses and Bowen consistently produce very little so why not give someone else a chance because they can't produce any less. However, that works under the assumption that Thompson doesn't know what kind of production he will get out of Domingo and Hayes and that they can do no worse than Bowen and Moses. Neither of which is true. Essentially you just want III to throw players out there to prove to you that he knows what he is doing, which isn't exactly his job. "no impacts except for occasional spurts of positive contributions" I disagree Sleepy.. It wasn't a positive contribution when Bowen tried to reverse dunk on a breakaway and had it blocked or when he fumbled a catchable pass out of bounds on a cut to the hoop.. Moses getting a moving screen foul right after he checked in yesterday wasn't positive either or when he threw a pass right into a defenders hands. Exactly what fire are you talking about Sleepy? The team was up by 15-20 the whole 2nd half, you couldn't have a better opportunity to see them in action with little to no pressure.. I don't need JT3 to prove anything to me, I want to see them play because I feel their upside is greater than that of Moses & Bowen. This is the best way I can sum up my feelings on this, after this I will agree to disagree.. If by chance Domingo and or Hayes were to leave they'll have high major programs ringing their phones in a heartbeat, I'd put a good chunk of change on that.. Conversely if Moses or Bowen decide to use their 5th year elsewhere they won't have high major programs calling..
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Nov 14, 2013 21:24:29 GMT -5
Yes, put me in that group who is rethinking Josh being ready to make that jump at the end of this year. Like the rest of the Hoyas, there is still a lot of work to be done. Both Cameron and Domingo need to be consistent with hitting the three for us to go deep into the tournament this year. Starks and DSR already have that confidence, now we need a couple more options. Cameron does have a nice stroke, though.
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mapei
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Post by mapei on Nov 14, 2013 22:13:09 GMT -5
Joshua was much better than I expected against Oregon and much worse than I expected (on both O and D) last night. I haven't seen his turnover numbers but I wouldn't be surprised if they were high; it's like his hands were greased. On D he just stood there while opposing players went around him and scored. So, very up one game, very down the next. I wonder if inconsistency is what we can expect from him this year. Contrary to popular opinion, I thought Hop and Nate played their butts off - maybe I like scrappy guys more than most. Nate had all sorts of deflections and really stretched for some of those boards; it doesn't concern me that he's not much of a scorer when he contributes so much else.
Totally agree with others re Markel and DSR. Great games. Was impressed that Cameron shows no signs of freshman stage fright. Someone upthread said he isn't and never will be good on defense. How the heck would you know after only spot minutes in a total of two games? Jabril had an off night, I thought. He'll be fine but last night wasn't his best. Wonder if playing out of position is part of the problem.
Also agree with others re Domingo, Hayes, Moses. Third-teamers. I *want* to see Aaron do well but have to agree that he doesn't seem to play up to his athletic capabilities for whatever reason. Wouldn't mind seeing more of Caprio; he seems much more confident as a senior. He'll never get big minutes but I'm no longer nervous when he's out there.
On the whole, this may be JT3's weakest team. That wouldn't be the case if Greg were healthy but we got unlucky. I have limited expectations for the season and am just going to enjoy wherever it goes.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Nov 14, 2013 22:31:14 GMT -5
Maybe the reason the coach, who sees these kids in practice everyday, knows that if Domingo and Hayes were playing their impacts would be negative as opposed to Moses and Bowen who have relatively no impact except for occasional spurts of positive contributions. There is also the possibility that Domingo and Hayes don't have the mental toughness to be thrown into the fire and any mistakes they make in game could be harmful to their development. I understand the sentiment of wanting to give others a chance when Moses and Bowen consistently produce very little so why not give someone else a chance because they can't produce any less. However, that works under the assumption that Thompson doesn't know what kind of production he will get out of Domingo and Hayes and that they can do no worse than Bowen and Moses. Neither of which is true. Essentially you just want III to throw players out there to prove to you that he knows what he is doing, which isn't exactly his job. "no impacts except for occasional spurts of positive contributions" I disagree Sleepy.. It wasn't a positive contribution when Bowen tried to reverse dunk a breakaway and had it blocked or when he fumbled a catchable pass out of bounds on a cut to the hoop.. Moses getting a moving screen foul right after he checked in yesterday wasn't positive either or when he threw a pass right into a defenders hands. Exactly what fire are you talking about Sleepy? The team was up by 15-20 the whole 2nd half, you couldn't have a better opportunity to see them in action with little to no pressure.. I don't need JT3 to prove anything to me, I want to see them play because I feel their upside is greater than that of Moses & Bowen. This is the best way I can sum ip my feelings on this, after this I will agree to disagree.. If by chance Domingo and or Hayes were to leave they'll have high major programs ringing their phones in a heartbeat, I'd put a good chunk of change on that.. Conversely if Moses or Bowen decide to use their 5th year elsewhere they won't have high major programs calling.. Neither Domingo nor Hayes has yet shown a single thing. Maybe they will down the road. We ALL hope they will. Right now Aaron and Moses are better players. As we develop this group and these rotations they need the minutes. If Bradley and Stephen show enough in practice they can earn their chances. If not, then - not.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Nov 14, 2013 22:43:15 GMT -5
Did anyone who is clamoring for Domingo or Hayes watch them play in Kenner? To be kind, they looked like they still need quite a bit of work. How did Cameron look in Kenner. Was he hitting 3s pretty consistently?
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vv83
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Post by vv83 on Nov 14, 2013 23:02:32 GMT -5
Yes, Cameron hit about 50% of his threes in kenner this summer. He also shot 45% (sr. year) and 50% (jr year) from 3 his last two years of high school. He is a great outside shooter, and has been demonstrating it for years. The question is whether he can do enough other things to be more than a specialist.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Nov 15, 2013 8:26:10 GMT -5
I think people are being overly harsh on Joshua's performance.
It's always harder to go against a swarm of little players than another actual post player.
Roy always struggled against Villanova when they swarmed him. The Refs don't call half the fouls when it's several little guys vs. 1 big guy.
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