guru
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Post by guru on Nov 14, 2013 10:50:44 GMT -5
I'm not sure Smith helps this team out much overall. His rebounding effort is nonexistent, and his negative effect on the defensive end (so far) cancels out any positive effect on offense. It's a quandary. Clearly, Smith's offensive benefits are somewhat outweighed by his awful defense, but I think he's clearly a net positive when he's on the floor. Last night, he was getting double and triple-teamed which really let things open up for Starks and DSR. The great thing about Smith is that he basically forces a positive offensive outcome. Either you defend against him one-on-one, and he kills you with nearly automatic baskets, or you double or triple team him, and leave our guards wide open. With these two options, there really should be no circumstance under which we cannot get good open looks. This is a drastic improvement from last year, where Porter, Starks, and DSR were really the only options (seeing Porter play with Smith would have been amazing). Of course, Smith does give up a lot on defense, and I hate to see what a team like Kansas is going to do to shred our defense, but I think the overall effect is still very positive, and can only get better with our defensive improvement and Smith hopefully losing a bit more weight. Smith was 2-6 from the floor last night, and he's shooting from a foot away from the basket when he puts it up. He looked automatic against Oregon, but certainly not last night. I can't see how his presence is "very positive" - at least not at the moment.
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GPHoya
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Post by GPHoya on Nov 14, 2013 11:00:27 GMT -5
While the "Undertaker" is a clever nickname for Joshua, I prefer the "Big Conundrum" to describe a player who seems to yield at least as many easy baskets as he creates.
Devanta Gardner created a similar riddle for Buzz in his first two seasons at Marquette. That said, Gardner has made improvements to limit his liabilities and I am skeptical about Joshua's capacity to evolve through his hungry caterpillar phase.
Counter to my intuition, he seemed worse in a zone than in man as inertia propelled his considerable mass right by the player with the ball whenever he attempted to move. SF's otherwise sensible solution that he anchor the middle and leave others to cheat on the corners leaves the high post and short corners completely vulnerable which is how we used to attack the vaunted 2-3 zone played by a former member of our league. Team defense is about your weakest link and there is no hiding Joshua.
Luckily, JT III does not have hair to pull.
If all of this proves premature early season criticism of a fine young man, I will eat my words as if devouring a bag of fritos.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 14, 2013 11:01:32 GMT -5
8 guys got 15+ minutes. There's only 200 minutes in the game and we only really have two points and three guards, so Markel and DSR need to play a decent chunk. What do you people want? I want to see Domingo get Bowen's minutes and I want to see Hayes get the ones Moses plays, that's what I want.. In my opinion the ceiling on Bowen & Moses has been reached. They're in their 4th year @ G'town and their production levels are still very low, time to move on. There has to be a point in which a coach has to look beyond the present and into the future.. Domingo & Hayes may not pan out but there's little downside to giving them a chance, a real consistent chance.. Especially Hayes !! This program desperately needs bigs going forward and JT3 is wasting one on the bench.. Meanwhile, half the people on the board don't think Bowen or Moses have gotten a fair shake. I agree, though. I mean, to be as obviously confident as JTIII is about the rotation, well, you'd have to see these guys play basketball for like, two hours a day that none of us get to see. (I would like to see Hayes develop, but man, he does need work. Domingo...that shot is broke and without it, he's basically a younger Aaron Bowen. When he starts to go straight up with no leg kick, watch out...)
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 14, 2013 11:04:29 GMT -5
8 guys got 15+ minutes. There's only 200 minutes in the game and we only really have two points and three guards, so Markel and DSR need to play a decent chunk. What do you people want? Come Big East play or the tougher OOC games, I agree completely. The "need" for an 8 man rotation in a game against a mid-major that was never in doubt is something I don't understand. Later in the year when the games are tough, the mantra will be that you cannot afford to play Domingo in such situations. Most of us will agree. Not easy for me to reach that same conclusion now. It is just who JT III is and it is something I don't understand. You missed my point. Domingo's minutes went to Cameron and Bowen. Really, whose minutes are getting reduced for Domingo to get another 10 minutes here? The starters need to get in a rhythm here, too.
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TC
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Post by TC on Nov 14, 2013 11:08:40 GMT -5
I watched about 3/4 of the game and the only thing I took away is that Reggie Cameron's shot is like 2,000 thread count Egyptian Cotton. I was particularly impressed at the one he hit to stop the 8-0 run.
Greg who?
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GPHoya
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Post by GPHoya on Nov 14, 2013 11:12:01 GMT -5
Greg who played defense too.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Nov 14, 2013 11:15:59 GMT -5
After the Oregon game I was prepared to chastise posters who were drawing whole-season conclusions based on one game; yet, here I am drawing conclusions based on two games. Senior privilege.
I thought Josh had an awful game, offense and defense, and I'm not convinced the season would not shake out better were Hopkins the starter and main center. Josh may very well give up more defensively than he contributes offensively. On the plus side, even though he missed a lot of FTs, his form is good and should improve.
I don't see this team improving significantly on defense all year. Too little athleticism.
This is Markel's team and will go as he goes. He is now a special player.
We really need Cameron to get lots of minutes. We need him to learn under fire how to get off that shot of his with hands in his face. We sorely need his scoring.
I'm puzzled by Hayes. He appears to be unusually well coordinated for a seven footer and seems to have soft hands. That's a potential talent that appears to be wasted. What gives?
Though far less athletic than Bowen, Caprio appears to be a better basketball player than Bowen and I would move him ahead of Bowen in the rotation.
This will be JT3's most challenging year, what with all the holes in the roster and on the defensive side.
Delighted to see Whit courtside.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Nov 14, 2013 11:17:02 GMT -5
Does everybody still have Smith in next June's NBA Draft?
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Nov 14, 2013 11:20:03 GMT -5
I was disappointed to see Hayes play last night. I was hoping to see him red shirted this season.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Nov 14, 2013 11:24:20 GMT -5
Though far less athletic than Bowen, Caprio appears to be a better basketball player than Bowen and I would move him ahead of Bowen in the rotation. +1 Caprio >Bowen
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 14, 2013 11:25:40 GMT -5
This whole playing time debate has become somewhat comical. It's becoming more and more obvious that some of these guys are just not deserving of PT. Did anyone watch Hayes last night? In 3 minutes against "big men" who are at least 4-5 inches shorter than him, he managed to pick up 2 fouls because he still lacks an understanding of how to properly defend his position. Why is he deserving of more PT? Moses continues to be more or less invisible nearly everytime he sets foot on the floor. If the ball doesn't hit him in hands, he's not grabbing a rebound and he's completely inept offensively. For a guy that BIg John claimed was the most gifted shot blocker since Ewing, has anyone seen him block a shot? What tangible effect does he have on a game that he needs to be in there? The Domingo thing I agree is a bit curious. We are completely unsettled at the 3, Bowen is clearly not the solution, Jabril only played 24 minutes (which is also a bit curious), and still no time for Domingo. But when you think about it, what has he done really to deserve more PT? The kid is supposed to be a lights out shooter but he can't shoot and his form is atrocious. He's slow on the defensive end and nothing special as a passer. But given the way I feel about Bowen, I wouldn't be totally opposed to him taking Bowen's minutes I guess. Bowen is on his way out the door and Domingo will still be around for a couple more years. Fine, give the kid more time. I understand everyone wanting to the backups to get minutes and improve, but that also comes at the expense of the starters' continued improvement. We are not a super-talented, veteran team like Michigan St. We lost far and away our most important player on BOTH ends of the floor in Otto. Lots of guys will be adjusting to new roles, both positionally and from a role standpoint. Our starters still have A LOT of work to do if we are going to be the kind of team we all want us to be. So if Thompson wants to essentially use games like this as a practice and do things like work on the 3/4 court pressure (which could become increasingly important if our half court D doesn't improve) or try and get Hop more minutes at the 5 to see if he can get better there, or tinker with different combinations of our 8 man rotation on the floor at the same time, then I'm all for it. Because when the games matter, Hayes won't sniff the floor. Our starting lineup has a lot of work to do in the coming weeks. I'm perfectly fine with using these OOC games as essentially extensions of practice. Every team has 13 scholarships to give out. No team plays a 13 man rotation. Every team has players they recruited that never sniff the floor. We've missed on basically all of our top priority big man recruits since Monroe for the most part. Guys like Hayes are late signing period lottery tickets basically - you've got an open scholarship, the kid is 7 feet tall and is somewhat athletic, so you take a shot. It wasn't a winning ticket. Same with Moses at this point. The mere fact that they were recruited does not automatically mean Thompson thinks they're great players or that they should ever see more time than they get. And I'm fine with that. I agree with a lot of what you posted here Snowplow.. We definitely agree on Domingo & Bowen.. Hayes was an overanxious hacker out there but that has to be expected considering the fact he never plays.. Your analogy about the lottery ticket is a good one and my opinion is that JT3 has scanned the Moses ticket to see whether he won or lost, unfortunately it was like a 3 dollar winner. Now he should move that ticket to the back of the pile and see what the Hayes ticket is worth..
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 14, 2013 11:32:44 GMT -5
Does everybody still have Smith in next June's NBA Draft? I am not confident Smith will be draft-worthy by March (and yes, I know it was a sarcastic question), but I think people are being too hard on the guy otherwise. Sure, Smith had a poor game last night, but he clearly showed in the Oregon game that he can score (and Oregon is a better team than Wright State), and we'll need as much scoring as we can get this year. As I said, part of the reason DSR and Starks were able to do so well is because Smith was garnering so much attention. Even if he doesn't score 25 a game, he brings value that doesn't show directly in the stat sheet. Whether he loses so much on defense as to negate the offensive benefit is not clear, but I am doubtful. Eventually, we might have enough statistics to get a definitive answer there.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 14, 2013 11:33:50 GMT -5
I want to see Domingo get Bowen's minutes and I want to see Hayes get the ones Moses plays, that's what I want.. In my opinion the ceiling on Bowen & Moses has been reached. They're in their 4th year @ G'town and their production levels are still very low, time to move on. There has to be a point in which a coach has to look beyond the present and into the future.. Domingo & Hayes may not pan out but there's little downside to giving them a chance, a real consistent chance.. Especially Hayes !! This program desperately needs bigs going forward and JT3 is wasting one on the bench.. Meanwhile, half the people on the board don't think Bowen or Moses have gotten a fair shake. I agree, though. I mean, to be as obviously confident as JTIII is about the rotation, well, you'd have to see these guys play basketball for like, two hours a day that none of us get to see. (I would like to see Hayes develop, but man, he does need work. Domingo...that shot is broke and without it, he's basically a younger Aaron Bowen. When he starts to go straight up with no leg kick, watch out...) Well then I think half the board is wrong.. Both Nate & Markel have told stories of how Hopkins is a beast in practices but we see that it doesn't translate in games consistently.. Practice isn't everything. Again I ask what the downside to playing them over 2 low production guys?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 14, 2013 11:36:15 GMT -5
SF's otherwise sensible solution that he anchor the middle and leave others to cheat on the corners leaves the high post and short corners completely vulnerable which is how we used to attack the vaunted 2-3 zone played by a former member of our league. It absolutely does. But my point is I'd much rather have our opponents taking quick, but open foul line shots than giving up wide open corner threes or watching easy interior passes goes for dunks and layups. The more I think about it, going man is probably the right thing. Unless their five can hit outside shots, have Josh pull playground D. Play man, don't leave the paint. If someone Pittsnogles us, so be it. I disagree wholeheartedly. Team D is all about hiding weaknesses. It's how Jessie Sapp and Jon Wallace were the 1/2 on an elite defensive team. It's how Nate Lubick and DSR played major roles on an elite defensive team. Give them some time to play together. It will get better.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Nov 14, 2013 11:38:26 GMT -5
Couple thoughts:
Cameron is very likely to earn consistent 10-15+ rotation minutes. Domingo will not. The bigger question in my mind is whether Cameron can earn even more minutes by biting into Jabril's minutes. He will need to get better on defense. But he's a more natural baseline defender in a 2-3 zone set compared to Jabril. I certainly am intrigued by the possibility of Cameron playing the 3 in our offense. That could be pretty damn nice with DSR/Starks penetrating, and Cameron lining up on the perimeter. I guess we can't get overly excited by one 3-5 3pt. game from Cameron. But, let's face it, not too many freshman come in and ever do that. So, it is something. Let's hope he keeps it up. He has the look of a 3 point assassin.
Moses showed more last year (a few times in big time games) than in the past two games. I'm waiting for more playing time this year to be too harsh. He is not going to be a world beater, but I think he can be a capable back-up, especially in the new Big East where the big men depth is quite limited. He's more fully recovered from the knee injury, healthier, etc. Let's not knock him yet. My bet is for a more productive season from Moses and a pleasant surprise at times.
I think Hopkins will fill that off-the-bench, high energy, defensive sub role very nicely. He just needs to be a bit more cautious on shot selection when playing offense. On defense, he will flourish playing off a more planted Smith, being more free to roam the paint and launch in for backside help at the rim. I think this will work out very nicely.
Starks and DSR are going to be very, very solid offensively. Their shots looked so pure last night. On the other hand, it doesn't look like many teams will have difficulty shooting over either of our guards this year. They are just a little limited physically that way.
Nate's ceiling has been reached. He definitely is what he is. Which is an average (at best) Big East PF. Nothing more. Good glue guy. Can make the occasional heady play. Will board nicely, especially if Smith is attracting attention. But he can't create much for himself on offense, and will struggle against any quick, stretch 4s on defense. Let's hope he continues to play within himself. Look to set up others within the offense. Play tough defense and board like a maniac.
I actually did not think DSR was complete garbage on defense last night. I saw some improvement. There were a couple plays he made this year that he couldn't have made last year. Basically, I noticed a couple times when he made very hard, determined, lateral moves to stay in front of his man. I saw it and noted in my mind that it was a step forward. He is improved and trimmed down.
You watch a game like that last night, and you realize what an incredible, incredible weapon Greg Whittington is at the top of a 2-3 zone defense. Without getting too nostalgic, his combination of height, length, speed, hops, and lateral quickness is extremely rare.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 14, 2013 11:44:56 GMT -5
Moses isn't much on offense, but he's a strong rebounder and is our best interior defender against certain teams. He has value this year. I'm not a huge Bowen fan like most, but he's shown more than Domingo.
I guess I just think that there's a certain level of competence that needs to be shown in practice to earn game time PT. I'm for winning this year, and from all I can see, Moses actually will help towards that, if not a ton. Bowen is more likely to help than Domingo.
If I thought their contributions in game were similar -- within 10-20%, I'd agree with you. But I don't see that right now.
Now, Cameron should be playing a ton. There's massive offensive upside there. Loved his post up move as well. If he can get better at PT, he helps to redefine the team. We can get a real rotation back at guard, get bigger at the 3 and make sure we always have 2 shooters on the floor.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Nov 14, 2013 11:50:54 GMT -5
This whole playing time debate has become somewhat comical. It's becoming more and more obvious that some of these guys are just not deserving of PT. Did anyone watch Hayes last night? In 3 minutes against "big men" who are at least 4-5 inches shorter than him, he managed to pick up 2 fouls because he still lacks an understanding of how to properly defend his position. Why is he deserving of more PT? Moses continues to be more or less invisible nearly everytime he sets foot on the floor. If the ball doesn't hit him in hands, he's not grabbing a rebound and he's completely inept offensively. For a guy that BIg John claimed was the most gifted shot blocker since Ewing, has anyone seen him block a shot? What tangible effect does he have on a game that he needs to be in there? The Domingo thing I agree is a bit curious. We are completely unsettled at the 3, Bowen is clearly not the solution, Jabril only played 24 minutes (which is also a bit curious), and still no time for Domingo. But when you think about it, what has he done really to deserve more PT? The kid is supposed to be a lights out shooter but he can't shoot and his form is atrocious. He's slow on the defensive end and nothing special as a passer. But given the way I feel about Bowen, I wouldn't be totally opposed to him taking Bowen's minutes I guess. Bowen is on his way out the door and Domingo will still be around for a couple more years. Fine, give the kid more time. I understand everyone wanting to the backups to get minutes and improve, but that also comes at the expense of the starters' continued improvement. We are not a super-talented, veteran team like Michigan St. We lost far and away our most important player on BOTH ends of the floor in Otto. Lots of guys will be adjusting to new roles, both positionally and from a role standpoint. Our starters still have A LOT of work to do if we are going to be the kind of team we all want us to be. So if Thompson wants to essentially use games like this as a practice and do things like work on the 3/4 court pressure (which could become increasingly important if our half court D doesn't improve) or try and get Hop more minutes at the 5 to see if he can get better there, or tinker with different combinations of our 8 man rotation on the floor at the same time, then I'm all for it. Because when the games matter, Hayes won't sniff the floor. Our starting lineup has a lot of work to do in the coming weeks. I'm perfectly fine with using these OOC games as essentially extensions of practice. Every team has 13 scholarships to give out. No team plays a 13 man rotation. Every team has players they recruited that never sniff the floor. We've missed on basically all of our top priority big man recruits since Monroe for the most part. Guys like Hayes are late signing period lottery tickets basically - you've got an open scholarship, the kid is 7 feet tall and is somewhat athletic, so you take a shot. It wasn't a winning ticket. Same with Moses at this point. The mere fact that they were recruited does not automatically mean Thompson thinks they're great players or that they should ever see more time than they get. And I'm fine with that. I agree with a lot of what you posted here Snowplow.. We definitely agree on Domingo & Bowen.. Hayes was an overanxious hacker out there but that has to be expected considering the fact he never plays.. Your analogy about the lottery ticket is a good one and my opinion is that JT3 has scanned the Moses ticket to see whether he won or lost, unfortunately it was like a 3 dollar winner. Now he should move that ticket to the back of the pile and see what the Hayes ticket is worth.. Alright, I see your point about Hayes vs. Moses. This is where I typically side with those who say that Coach sees these guys for many hours a week in practice and he knows way better than we do. Frankly, I'd be fine with Hayes and Moses flip-flopping, because honestly, I don't think either are deserving of more than spot minutes in any game anyway. So if you want to give Hayes those 4-5 minutes a game that Moses gets, alright, I'm on board. Maybe he will actually show some improvement. Who knows? My main point though was that the top 8 need lots of work at this point as well, so what good does it really do to give the bottom 4 more minutes, even against lowly competition? Honestly, I'd be fine with a largely 7 man rotation this year, with Hop and Cameron being the only ones getting significant minutes off the bench. Unfortunately, with fouls being called as they are and Smith's conditioning/defensive issues, this probably isn't a realistic scenario, so players that really shouldn't be playing will have to get some minutes. I understand you want to have somewhat of an eye toward the future, but we're in a delicate spot right now in terms of this new conference. There are a lot of eggs in our basket, so Thompson can't really afford to worry about next year when winning this year is not necessarily a given right now. And all of these points would be totally moot if not for GW's balky knee. I'm not usually one to take the woe-is-me stance, but my god is that injury just a killer right now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 11:52:17 GMT -5
Camerons defense is and always will be below average, athleticism on the defensive side of the ball matters… I hope people are not expecting him to help much on that side, he will always have a problem guarding in space unless miracles happen...
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Post by aleutianhoya on Nov 14, 2013 11:53:01 GMT -5
A few points on the rotation, and I'll try to stick to things that haven't been said (or at least not in the same way):
(1) We call all agree, I hope, that if the choice is between making sure our top 7 or 8 players are comfortable playing with each other and seeing if a guy in the 9-12 range of the rotation can break into the 6-8 spot in the rotation, we absolutely ought to choose the former. Under any scenario the 7-8 guys will be playing more -- and playing more meaningful minutes -- even if there were a bigger rotation. It may be that the choice need not be made, but if Coach feels -- particularly early in the year -- that these guys need work, I don't think that is a position that should be debated.
(2) We used to play a truckload of abysmal competition, and that would provide ample opportunity for players 9-12 in the rotation to play and to potentially break into the meaningful rotation. Now, we no longer play that many games of that kind. And we all agree that is a good thing! Last year, the few games we had against those teams did not go as planned. That is, we did not blow them out. So, the lower-rotation players did not get the opportunity. We have not had a game of that kind yet this year (Libscomb, High Point, and Colgate to come). Hopefully, you will see bigger rotations in those games and get a sense for what those players can do under game conditions.
(3) Someone referred to Wright State as "lowly" earlier in the thread. The season may bear that out -- who knows? -- but they were a top 100 team last year and project that way again this year. Whether you agree or not, it was clear that Coach viewed this as a game not to screw around with. Up 18 early in the second half? Well, not the time to empty the bench at the risk of it quickly becoming a 12 point game. Hopefully we blow out Northeastern and Elon, too, but you can be sure that when those games are 15-20 point games, the bench will not be emptied for similar reasons. We scheduled those teams for a reason -- they are the sorts of teams we have had problems with in the Tournament. Even more reason to get our true rotational players minutes against them.
(4) I think getting your 9-12 players meaningful minutes against bad competition is severely overrated. If the goal is to just get these guys some minutes to make them feel good about themselves and their participation in the program, well, then I flat think that is silly. If the goal is to learn if they can break into the rotation, playing in these games doesn't really tell you that. Hayes getting 8 points and 6 rebounds against High Point and a guy who is 6'6" defending him doesn't tell you if he can do that against St. John's during crunch time. Doing it against Smith or Hopkins in practice is far more illustrative. I know that doesn't help us, as fans, determine whether we agree with coach or not, but it is, I would suggest, unimpeachable reality.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Nov 14, 2013 12:02:53 GMT -5
Not to get too far ahead of ourselves, but the combination of Cameron, White, and Copeland is quite interesting. They all have skills ranging from SG to PF. Very versatile.
Two other notes I forgot above:
1) I hope Tre Campbell can be ready to play PG from Day 1 next year, because Starks' departure will be a HUGE void. 2) Josh's overall stamina seem to be a little ahead of what I expected. However, he still carries way too much weight, which is killing him on defense and rebounding. After being at Georgetown since January, I think he should have lost more weight by now. I find that to be more than just a mild disappointment. The time to lose the bulk of the weight is during the off-season (See examples in DSR, Sweetney, Roy). I don't think he will lose much more during the course of the season. Did anyone notice him adjusting his jersey at the free throw line? Maybe the staff isn't giving him the next size jersey up (assuming there is one) on purpose...! Hey man, if you want to look prettier, drop some more LBs.
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