calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by calhoya on Nov 14, 2013 8:39:17 GMT -5
So a couple of posters have stated that Bowen has no basketball IQ. What is this referring to based upon last night's game? I watched the entire game and focused in particular on Boween, Cameron, Moses (very little playing time) and Hopkins. For a variety of reasons, I believe that these kids are very important to the team's success this year.
I saw Bowen playing improved but only average defense. I saw him rush one three, but other than that I did not see any glaring evidence of a lack of basketball IQ. Hopkins continues to impress this year with his athleticism, but still is no sure thing when it comes to finsihing around the basket. Moses needs more playing time and must be included in the offense when in the game. Cameron shows incredible confidence but was lost on defense a couple of times. Still has a long way to go but making progress. Smith actually showed a lower basketball IQ by repeatedly placing the ball on the floor--pointed out numerous times by the announcers--and getting stripped or disrupted by smaller quicker defenders. Overall, it was a good effort against a mid-major. Nothing to get excited about yet--relief is more appropriate characterization. DSR and Starks played as they need to this year, particularly if Smith is going to be surrounded by sagging defenses. Lubick was better and actually looked for a shot on occasion. Only negative was the lack of playing time for Domingo and Moses. Perhaps JT III is already returning to his preference as a short rotation coach.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,791
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 14, 2013 8:54:30 GMT -5
Only negative was the lack of playing time for Domingo and Moses. Perhaps JT III is already returning to his preference as a short rotation coach. 8 guys got 15+ minutes. There's only 200 minutes in the game and we only really have two points and three guards, so Markel and DSR need to play a decent chunk. What do you people want?
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Nov 14, 2013 9:08:21 GMT -5
Only negative was the lack of playing time for Domingo and Moses. Perhaps JT III is already returning to his preference as a short rotation coach. 8 guys got 15+ minutes. There's only 200 minutes in the game and we only really have two points and three guards, so Markel and DSR need to play a decent chunk. What do you people want? 20 players playing 10 minutes each! Is that so much to ask!
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Post by augustusfinknottle on Nov 14, 2013 9:17:17 GMT -5
I thought Stu Jackson was very good especially as it was his debut; no hype, just insight. My favorite Stocktonism of the night was when he said someone was on "the mound" (instead of the free throw line).
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Nov 14, 2013 9:19:44 GMT -5
DSR's D was garbage. Good shooting game masked a poor defensive effort. Cameron is definitely a few steps slow and needs to trim down and muscle up (true of most frosh). If he fills in that slot, I just don't see where Domingo fits in next year with a class of supposedly good wings behind him. Would like to see more Moses but I think he & JTIII know what he can do and versus who. Against a small ball team, the Hopkins/Lubick 4/5 combo probably works and is a better defensive fit.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 14, 2013 9:26:12 GMT -5
Only negative was the lack of playing time for Domingo and Moses. Perhaps JT III is already returning to his preference as a short rotation coach. 8 guys got 15+ minutes. There's only 200 minutes in the game and we only really have two points and three guards, so Markel and DSR need to play a decent chunk. What do you people want? I agree. I think anything more than an 8 man rotation is very unlikely and probably not going to help us win more games. I'm all for Domingo getting some time when appropriate but he hasn't shown any ability to really contribute yet and Hayes looked lost at the end of the game. I understand the idea they you need to play to improve but there is no indication that if Hayes or Domingo get 5 more minutes that they are going to suddenly turn into major contributors. As for Domingo specifically, I think it will ultimately help the team more for Cameron to get those minutes since he seems further along, and he might actually turn into a solid contributor this year.
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rockhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by rockhoya on Nov 14, 2013 9:36:45 GMT -5
* Can Markel do this against better players? I hope so. Lol hate
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 14, 2013 9:37:25 GMT -5
Only negative was the lack of playing time for Domingo and Moses. Perhaps JT III is already returning to his preference as a short rotation coach. 8 guys got 15+ minutes. There's only 200 minutes in the game and we only really have two points and three guards, so Markel and DSR need to play a decent chunk. What do you people want? I want to see Domingo get Bowen's minutes and I want to see Hayes get the ones Moses plays, that's what I want.. In my opinion the ceiling on Bowen & Moses has been reached. They're in their 4th year @ G'town and their production levels are still very low, time to move on. There has to be a point in which a coach has to look beyond the present and into the future.. Domingo & Hayes may not pan out but there's little downside to giving them a chance, a real consistent chance.. Especially Hayes !! This program desperately needs bigs going forward and JT3 is wasting one on the bench..
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by calhoya on Nov 14, 2013 9:49:54 GMT -5
Only negative was the lack of playing time for Domingo and Moses. Perhaps JT III is already returning to his preference as a short rotation coach. 8 guys got 15+ minutes. There's only 200 minutes in the game and we only really have two points and three guards, so Markel and DSR need to play a decent chunk. What do you people want? Come Big East play or the tougher OOC games, I agree completely. The "need" for an 8 man rotation in a game against a mid-major that was never in doubt is something I don't understand. Later in the year when the games are tough, the mantra will be that you cannot afford to play Domingo in such situations. Most of us will agree. Not easy for me to reach that same conclusion now. It is just who JT III is and it is something I don't understand.
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,440
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Post by lichoya68 on Nov 14, 2013 9:51:51 GMT -5
coach and the guys will work it out OK nice outside game just work on INSIDE and work on FOUL SHOTS will be fine. Go hoyas get ready for the Noreaster in PR> yup
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GUJook97
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by GUJook97 on Nov 14, 2013 10:12:31 GMT -5
DSR's D was garbage. Good shooting game masked a poor defensive effort. Cameron is definitely a few steps slow and needs to trim down and muscle up (true of most frosh). If he fills in that slot, I just don't see where Domingo fits in next year with a class of supposedly good wings behind him. Would like to see more Moses but I think he & JTIII know what he can do and versus who. Against a small ball team, the Hopkins/Lubick 4/5 combo probably works and is a better defensive fit. I dont want to get overly negative, but from what I saw at the game last night, this is a very bad defensive team right now. I do think III will figure it out, but I was shocked how poorly we were covering the wings, and how slow we were on the interior. Im not sure what the answer is because we need to have Smith on the floor a lot, but I hope we are ready to win a lot of games by scoring 70+ points.
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GUJook97
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by GUJook97 on Nov 14, 2013 10:17:15 GMT -5
Some quick thoughts: * The defense is pretty bad right now but it can get better with some adjustments, namely to compensate for Josh. One, I know Thompson's defensive style is to focus on contesting shots (rather than forcing turnovers and even at the expense of D rebounding at times) BUT I don't think Josh should be playing that style of D. He's too slow to actually do it, and he gives up way too many interior passes. I'd plant him in the lane, arms straight up, let him show that he's rotating, but not actually do it much. Just stay for the board or the pass. Two, when he's in, I'd cheat the wings on the zone towards the baseline to guard the corner 3 better. . I think that's a good point. That's probably the biggest difference between last year and this year. If we are going to contest shots, we have to be able to rotate and the rotation is extremely slow with Smith in the game.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 14, 2013 10:24:01 GMT -5
Did anybody else notice that our first half pace was a lot faster than normal? I am not sure if the statistics bear this out, but it felt like our offense was really pushing the pace (even with Josh Smith in the game), and I thought it was actually a good adjustment. It worked in our favor because DSR and Starks were on fire, we built up a quick lead, and we were able to coast from that point forward.
Personally, I would like to see this faster pace, especially against lesser opponents. I'm not sure it's a winning strategy against a team like Kansas, but against the Wright State and Elon's of the world, I think it's effective. It's not necessarily something we can sustain for 40 minutes, but I think coming out of the gate that way is effective.
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guru
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Post by guru on Nov 14, 2013 10:29:26 GMT -5
8 guys got 15+ minutes. There's only 200 minutes in the game and we only really have two points and three guards, so Markel and DSR need to play a decent chunk. What do you people want? I agree. I think anything more than an 8 man rotation is very unlikely and probably not going to help us win more games. I'm all for Domingo getting some time when appropriate but he hasn't shown any ability to really contribute yet and Hayes looked lost at the end of the game. I understand the idea they you need to play to improve but there is no indication that if Hayes or Domingo get 5 more minutes that they are going to suddenly turn into major contributors. As for Domingo specifically, I think it will ultimately help the team more for Cameron to get those minutes since he seems further along, and he might actually turn into a solid contributor this year. Domingo has to be considered a huge disappointment. He looks absolutely unable/unprepared to play at this level. Kind of shocking, given his ranking among the HS recruiting "experts". Even in limited minutes over the past 2 seasons, has he honestly given anyone any indication that he should be playing more?
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Nov 14, 2013 10:31:06 GMT -5
We shouldn't be playing a 2-3 zone. We can't play man because we are so slow, but there are other defensive options out there to hide our flaws. The coaching staff just has to explore them with this group and figure out what works. I hope they don't spend too much time trying to make 2-3 work though, it simply won't happen with this group unless Whittington comes back which I'm wholeheartedly against for this season. On the bright side this group actually does care about defense so I do have hope they will figure something out to keep us from being absolutely terrible, like we are right now. We'll see I guess.
We also really need to work on free throws. This whole season is going to be a big free throw shooting contest. Luckily that is easily improvable over the course of a season.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Nov 14, 2013 10:32:38 GMT -5
This whole playing time debate has become somewhat comical. It's becoming more and more obvious that some of these guys are just not deserving of PT. Did anyone watch Hayes last night? In 3 minutes against "big men" who are at least 4-5 inches shorter than him, he managed to pick up 2 fouls because he still lacks an understanding of how to properly defend his position. Why is he deserving of more PT? Moses continues to be more or less invisible nearly everytime he sets foot on the floor. If the ball doesn't hit him in hands, he's not grabbing a rebound and he's completely inept offensively. For a guy that BIg John claimed was the most gifted shot blocker since Ewing, has anyone seen him block a shot? What tangible effect does he have on a game that he needs to be in there? The Domingo thing I agree is a bit curious. We are completely unsettled at the 3, Bowen is clearly not the solution, Jabril only played 24 minutes (which is also a bit curious), and still no time for Domingo. But when you think about it, what has he done really to deserve more PT? The kid is supposed to be a lights out shooter but he can't shoot and his form is atrocious. He's slow on the defensive end and nothing special as a passer. But given the way I feel about Bowen, I wouldn't be totally opposed to him taking Bowen's minutes I guess. Bowen is on his way out the door and Domingo will still be around for a couple more years. Fine, give the kid more time.
I understand everyone wanting to the backups to get minutes and improve, but that also comes at the expense of the starters' continued improvement. We are not a super-talented, veteran team like Michigan St. We lost far and away our most important player on BOTH ends of the floor in Otto. Lots of guys will be adjusting to new roles, both positionally and from a role standpoint. Our starters still have A LOT of work to do if we are going to be the kind of team we all want us to be. So if Thompson wants to essentially use games like this as a practice and do things like work on the 3/4 court pressure (which could become increasingly important if our half court D doesn't improve) or try and get Hop more minutes at the 5 to see if he can get better there, or tinker with different combinations of our 8 man rotation on the floor at the same time, then I'm all for it. Because when the games matter, Hayes won't sniff the floor. Our starting lineup has a lot of work to do in the coming weeks. I'm perfectly fine with using these OOC games as essentially extensions of practice.
Every team has 13 scholarships to give out. No team plays a 13 man rotation. Every team has players they recruited that never sniff the floor. We've missed on basically all of our top priority big man recruits since Monroe for the most part. Guys like Hayes are late signing period lottery tickets basically - you've got an open scholarship, the kid is 7 feet tall and is somewhat athletic, so you take a shot. It wasn't a winning ticket. Same with Moses at this point. The mere fact that they were recruited does not automatically mean Thompson thinks they're great players or that they should ever see more time than they get. And I'm fine with that.
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by guru on Nov 14, 2013 10:33:04 GMT -5
DSR's D was garbage. Good shooting game masked a poor defensive effort. Cameron is definitely a few steps slow and needs to trim down and muscle up (true of most frosh). If he fills in that slot, I just don't see where Domingo fits in next year with a class of supposedly good wings behind him. Would like to see more Moses but I think he & JTIII know what he can do and versus who. Against a small ball team, the Hopkins/Lubick 4/5 combo probably works and is a better defensive fit. I dont want to get overly negative, but from what I saw at the game last night, this is a very bad defensive team right now. I do think III will figure it out, but I was shocked how poorly we were covering the wings, and how slow we were on the interior. Im not sure what the answer is because we need to have Smith on the floor a lot, but I hope we are ready to win a lot of games by scoring 70+ points. This is true, and kind of scary. I'm not sure Smith helps this team out much overall. His rebounding effort is nonexistent, and his negative effect on the defensive end (so far) cancels out any positive effect on offense. It's a quandary.
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Buckets
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Post by Buckets on Nov 14, 2013 10:39:18 GMT -5
On defense, with the 8-man rotation we saw last night you have: Trawick who's an above average defender; Hopkins, Lubick, and Starks who are capable; DSR, Smith, and Cameron who are lacking in athleticism; and Bowen, who just seems to get lost and beat a lot more than a guy with his athleticism should.
Some of these guys are capable of playing better: DSR got around his limited athleticism and was passable last year, Hopkins could be an above average defender if he rebounds like he has through two games and not the last two seasons; but at the end of the day we have two liabilities because of athleticism (Smith and Cameron). There's no Porter deflecting passes or Hibbert blocking shots to make up for that, so I don't see how this gets to be a good defensive team.
If we can play even average team defense, I think the offense has the opportunity to score a bunch of points.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 14, 2013 10:41:28 GMT -5
I'm not sure Smith helps this team out much overall. His rebounding effort is nonexistent, and his negative effect on the defensive end (so far) cancels out any positive effect on offense. It's a quandary. Clearly, Smith's offensive benefits are somewhat outweighed by his awful defense, but I think he's clearly a net positive when he's on the floor. Last night, he was getting double and triple-teamed which really let things open up for Starks and DSR. The great thing about Smith is that he basically forces a positive offensive outcome. Either you defend against him one-on-one, and he kills you with nearly automatic baskets, or you double or triple team him, and leave our guards wide open. With these two options, there really should be no circumstance under which we cannot get good open looks. This is a drastic improvement from last year, where Porter, Starks, and DSR were really the only options (seeing Porter play with Smith would have been amazing). Of course, Smith does give up a lot on defense, and I hate to see what a team like Kansas is going to do to shred our defense, but I think the overall effect is still very positive, and can only get better with our defensive improvement and Smith hopefully losing a bit more weight.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Nov 14, 2013 10:43:44 GMT -5
This whole playing time debate has become somewhat comical. It's becoming more and more obvious that some of these guys are just not deserving of PT. Did anyone watch Hayes last night? In 3 minutes against "big men" who are at least 4-5 inches shorter than him, he managed to pick up 2 fouls because he still lacks an understanding of how to properly defend his position. Why is he deserving of more PT? Moses continues to be more or less invisible nearly everytime he sets foot on the floor. If the ball doesn't hit him in hands, he's not grabbing a rebound and he's completely inept offensively. For a guy that BIg John claimed was the most gifted shot blocker since Ewing, has anyone seen him block a shot? What tangible effect does he have on a game that he needs to be in there? The Domingo thing I agree is a bit curious. We are completely unsettled at the 3, Bowen is clearly not the solution, Jabril only played 24 minutes (which is also a bit curious), and still no time for Domingo. But when you think about it, what has he done really to deserve more PT? The kid is supposed to be a lights out shooter but he can't shoot and his form is atrocious. He's slow on the defensive end and nothing special as a passer. But given the way I feel about Bowen, I wouldn't be totally opposed to him taking Bowen's minutes I guess. Bowen is on his way out the door and Domingo will still be around for a couple more years. Fine, give the kid more time. I understand everyone wanting to the backups to get minutes and improve, but that also comes at the expense of the starters' continued improvement. We are not a super-talented, veteran team like Michigan St. We lost far and away our most important player on BOTH ends of the floor in Otto. Lots of guys will be adjusting to new roles, both positionally and from a role standpoint. Our starters still have A LOT of work to do if we are going to be the kind of team we all want us to be. So if Thompson wants to essentially use games like this as a practice and do things like work on the 3/4 court pressure (which could become increasingly important if our half court D doesn't improve) or try and get Hop more minutes at the 5 to see if he can get better there, or tinker with different combinations of our 8 man rotation on the floor at the same time, then I'm all for it. Because when the games matter, Hayes won't sniff the floor. Our starting lineup has a lot of work to do in the coming weeks. I'm perfectly fine with using these OOC games as essentially extensions of practice. Every team has 13 scholarships to give out. No team plays a 13 man rotation. Every team has players they recruited that never sniff the floor. We've missed on basically all of our top priority big man recruits since Monroe for the most part. Guys like Hayes are late signing period lottery tickets basically - you've got an open scholarship, the kid is 7 feet tall and is somewhat athletic, so you take a shot. It wasn't a winning ticket. Same with Moses at this point. The mere fact that they were recruited does not automatically mean Thompson thinks they're great players or that they should ever see more time than they get. And I'm fine with that. Great post. Agree 100%. Cameron showed me more last night than Domingo has in a season plus. Some people will say it's because Domingo hasn't been given a chance, but you earn your chances in limited minutes by showing what you can do to earn more minutes. That's just how it works when you are trying to break into a rotation (unless you're Vee Sanford). The only reason I think we might need a 9th in the regular rotation is because CBB as a whole has been ruined by this ridiculous increase in fouls (up ~20% per game compared to last year). But any more than that is not only unreasonable, but unnecessary. And the 9th spot in the rotation has to be first earned by somebody who deserves to be on the floor.
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