TC
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Post by TC on Nov 14, 2013 12:17:08 GMT -5
TMoses continues to be more or less invisible nearly everytime he sets foot on the floor. If the ball doesn't hit him in hands, he's not grabbing a rebound and he's completely inept offensively. For a guy that BIg John claimed was the most gifted shot blocker since Ewing, has anyone seen him block a shot? What tangible effect does he have on a game that he needs to be in there? First off, that is dramatically underselling Moses' rebounding, which is really good. Second off, I can agree with everything else you said about Moses and still argue that Moses deserves more time than Hopkins by virtue of the fact that he rebounds well and isn't involved on offense. Hopkins was that bad last year.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Nov 14, 2013 12:17:22 GMT -5
While it was obviously too soon to pack Josh Smith's bag for the NBA for next season after our first game of the season, it is equally premature to completely write him off as a net-negative for the rest of the season after just the second game. Defense in general, and specifically the way III runs defense, is all about getting the pieces to fit together. We were going to be bad defensively with or without Smith because we would still be too short and too slow. We just need to figure out how to work the pieces we have into a decent to average defensive team now. You don't need to be tall and really athletic to be an average to good defensive team. A 2-3 zone simply isn't going to work and it's a waste of time trying right now. There are some teams that should never go 2-3 and our team is the perfect example of one. Other zones could work though. Personally I think we would be most successful in a match-up 3-2 zone, or really we would have to make it almost a 2-1-2 match up zone when Smith is in the game. Essentially top three (or two) would be in an aggressive match-up zone so basically play man to man and switching based on area while the posts mostly just play a more traditional zone role. However with Smith in you'd have 4 guys playing an aggressive man-match and keep smith in the paint basically at all times, though he wouldn't be solely responsible for it. I have no idea if III knows how to coach this type of defense though, but something similar is what we need. It's really effective when you mix it with man and a less aggressive 3-2 zone because it's hard to identify and figure out which offense is effective against it.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 14, 2013 12:37:50 GMT -5
Moses isn't much on offense, but he's a strong rebounder and is our best interior defender against certain teams. He has value this year. I'm not a huge Bowen fan like most, but he's shown more than Domingo. I guess I just think that there's a certain level of competence that needs to be shown in practice to earn game time PT. I'm for winning this year, and from all I can see, Moses actually will help towards that, if not a ton. Bowen is more likely to help than Domingo. If I thought their contributions in game were similar -- within 10-20%, I'd agree with you. But I don't see that right now. Now, Cameron should be playing a ton. There's massive offensive upside there. Loved his post up move as well. If he can get better at PT, he helps to redefine the team. We can get a real rotation back at guard, get bigger at the 3 and make sure we always have 2 shooters on the floor. I still think you're looking at it the wrong way SF... Moses & Bowen aren't keys to success for this team this year, they both could conceivably sit for 5 or 6 straight games or play 5 or 6 straight and the production level will be the same.. We know what consistent playing time from them gets you but we don't have that answer for Domingo or Hayes.. I would like to find out.. If it doesn't work and they bust out, go back to the status quo... As for Cameron I agree wholeheartedly!! Get him on the court as much as possible..
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Nov 14, 2013 12:40:40 GMT -5
TMoses continues to be more or less invisible nearly everytime he sets foot on the floor. If the ball doesn't hit him in hands, he's not grabbing a rebound and he's completely inept offensively. For a guy that BIg John claimed was the most gifted shot blocker since Ewing, has anyone seen him block a shot? What tangible effect does he have on a game that he needs to be in there? First off, that is dramatically underselling Moses' rebounding, which is really good. Second off, I can agree with everything else you said about Moses and still argue that Moses deserves more time than Hopkins by virtue of the fact that he rebounds well and isn't involved on offense. Hopkins was that bad last year. OK, I got a little carried away with my Moses evalution, I'll admit that. The kid is a pretty decent rebounder. Fine. But to suggest he deserves more time than Hopkins is just utter buffoonery. Hopkins is overaggressive at times, yes, and he showed it again last night. But against Oregon I think he showed some flashes of the potential value he has playing the 4 alongside Josh. Moses has exactly one discernible skill. Hopkins has several, they just need to be utilized properly.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Nov 14, 2013 12:45:28 GMT -5
First off, that is dramatically underselling Moses' rebounding, which is really good. Second off, I can agree with everything else you said about Moses and still argue that Moses deserves more time than Hopkins by virtue of the fact that he rebounds well and isn't involved on offense. Hopkins was that bad last year. OK, I got a little carried away with my Moses evalution, I'll admit that. The kid is a pretty decent rebounder. Fine. But to suggest he deserves more time than Hopkins is just utter buffoonery. Hopkins is overaggressive at times, yes, and he showed it again last night. But against Oregon I think he showed some flashes of the potential value he has playing the 4 alongside Josh. Moses has exactly one discernible skill. Hopkins has several, they just need to be utilized properly. Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing Hop start at the 4 and bring Lubick off the bench to spell Smith at 5. I think they're both better suited for those roles.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 12:46:11 GMT -5
Think this team wins by pounding the ball inside and forcing teams to either double Josh or give up something on the perimeter.
Josh, DSR, and Kel are all capable of going for 20+ when they get it going. Need 2 of the 3 to play well and the other to contribute some in order to win most nights. DSR is the key in that scenario the other 2 I’m not worried about. Cameron is a knock down shooter, Hopkins looks more comfortable both might have some unexpected but good scoring games on occasion also this season.
Defensively we need to get timely stops. Hopkins is probably the guy who has the most ability and upside on that side of the ball to replace some of what Otto gave us last year. In my eyes he could make a major impact if he focuses on rebounding, communicating, and help side defense. He needs to bring that edge every game, he’s capable. Time for him to become a man.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 14, 2013 12:50:50 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of what you posted here Snowplow.. We definitely agree on Domingo & Bowen.. Hayes was an overanxious hacker out there but that has to be expected considering the fact he never plays.. Your analogy about the lottery ticket is a good one and my opinion is that JT3 has scanned the Moses ticket to see whether he won or lost, unfortunately it was like a 3 dollar winner. Now he should move that ticket to the back of the pile and see what the Hayes ticket is worth.. Alright, I see your point about Hayes vs. Moses. This is where I typically side with those who say that Coach sees these guys for many hours a week in practice and he knows way better than we do. Frankly, I'd be fine with Hayes and Moses flip-flopping, because honestly, I don't think either are deserving of more than spot minutes in any game anyway. So if you want to give Hayes those 4-5 minutes a game that Moses gets, alright, I'm on board. Maybe he will actually show some improvement. Who knows? My main point though was that the top 8 need lots of work at this point as well, so what good does it really do to give the bottom 4 more minutes, even against lowly competition? Honestly, I'd be fine with a largely 7 man rotation this year, with Hop and Cameron being the only ones getting significant minutes off the bench. Unfortunately, with fouls being called as they are and Smith's conditioning/defensive issues, this probably isn't a realistic scenario, so players that really shouldn't be playing will have to get some minutes. I understand you want to have somewhat of an eye toward the future, but we're in a delicate spot right now in terms of this new conference. There are a lot of eggs in our basket, so Thompson can't really afford to worry about next year when winning this year is not necessarily a given right now. And all of these points would be totally moot if not for GW's balky knee. I'm not usually one to take the woe-is-me stance, but my god is that injury just a killer right now. My main point is that Moses & Bowen are a part of your top 8 & they're not very productive so see what else you have in game situations. A coach must always have his eye towards the future, especially a college coach.. Considering how recruiting has gone for this New BE I wouldn't worry much about its longevity & relevance just yet.. I hate doing this cause i don't like bashing kids and i hate repeating myself.. Moses & Bowen both seem to be good young men and great reps of the program, I have nothing personal against them.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Nov 14, 2013 12:54:00 GMT -5
Alright, I see your point about Hayes vs. Moses. This is where I typically side with those who say that Coach sees these guys for many hours a week in practice and he knows way better than we do. Frankly, I'd be fine with Hayes and Moses flip-flopping, because honestly, I don't think either are deserving of more than spot minutes in any game anyway. So if you want to give Hayes those 4-5 minutes a game that Moses gets, alright, I'm on board. Maybe he will actually show some improvement. Who knows? My main point though was that the top 8 need lots of work at this point as well, so what good does it really do to give the bottom 4 more minutes, even against lowly competition? Honestly, I'd be fine with a largely 7 man rotation this year, with Hop and Cameron being the only ones getting significant minutes off the bench. Unfortunately, with fouls being called as they are and Smith's conditioning/defensive issues, this probably isn't a realistic scenario, so players that really shouldn't be playing will have to get some minutes. I understand you want to have somewhat of an eye toward the future, but we're in a delicate spot right now in terms of this new conference. There are a lot of eggs in our basket, so Thompson can't really afford to worry about next year when winning this year is not necessarily a given right now. And all of these points would be totally moot if not for GW's balky knee. I'm not usually one to take the woe-is-me stance, but my god is that injury just a killer right now. My main point is that Moses & Bowen are a part of your top 8 & they're not very productive so see what else you have in game situations. A coach must always have his eye towards the future, especially a college coach.. Considering how recruiting has gone for this New BE I wouldn't worry much about its longevity & relevance just yet.. I hate doing this cause i don't like bashing kids and i hate repeating myself.. Moses & Bowen both seem to be good young men and great reps of the program, I have nothing personal against them. I think this is one of those times where we're pretty much in agreement but the more we keep talking about it, the more it'll turn into an argument haha.
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Nov 14, 2013 14:15:59 GMT -5
So a couple of posters have stated that Bowen has no basketball IQ. What is this referring to based upon last night's game? I watched the entire game and focused in particular on Boween, Cameron, Moses (very little playing time) and Hopkins. For a variety of reasons, I believe that these kids are very important to the team's success this year. I saw Bowen playing improved but only average defense. I saw him rush one three, but other than that I did not see any glaring evidence of a lack of basketball IQ. Hopkins continues to impress this year with his athleticism, but still is no sure thing when it comes to finsihing around the basket. Moses needs more playing time and must be included in the offense when in the game. Cameron shows incredible confidence but was lost on defense a couple of times. Still has a long way to go but making progress. Smith actually showed a lower basketball IQ by repeatedly placing the ball on the floor--pointed out numerous times by the announcers--and getting stripped or disrupted by smaller quicker defenders. Overall, it was a good effort against a mid-major. Nothing to get excited about yet--relief is more appropriate characterization. DSR and Starks played as they need to this year, particularly if Smith is going to be surrounded by sagging defenses. Lubick was better and actually looked for a shot on occasion. Only negative was the lack of playing time for Domingo and Moses. Perhaps JT III is already returning to his preference as a short rotation coach. Aaron has no idea when to shoot or when to pass. He has no idea when to probe and penetrate off the dribble, or when to bring it out and run offense. His skill level - for being in the program for four years - is scary in its lack od development. On one play, Aaron drove smack into three guys in the middle, had DSR WIDE OPEN for a three and what could've been an easy assist. He forced the shot in traffic. That's just simple IQ out there. He's a plus athlete, but that's about it. And as a senior, he should be a much better player. Disappointed in Nate as well. He's the same player he was as a freshman too. Contrast that with Markel, who is a much much better player and who's improved in each of his off-season's.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Nov 14, 2013 14:56:11 GMT -5
So a couple of posters have stated that Bowen has no basketball IQ. What is this referring to based upon last night's game? I watched the entire game and focused in particular on Boween, Cameron, Moses (very little playing time) and Hopkins. For a variety of reasons, I believe that these kids are very important to the team's success this year. I saw Bowen playing improved but only average defense. I saw him rush one three, but other than that I did not see any glaring evidence of a lack of basketball IQ. Hopkins continues to impress this year with his athleticism, but still is no sure thing when it comes to finsihing around the basket. Moses needs more playing time and must be included in the offense when in the game. Cameron shows incredible confidence but was lost on defense a couple of times. Still has a long way to go but making progress. Smith actually showed a lower basketball IQ by repeatedly placing the ball on the floor--pointed out numerous times by the announcers--and getting stripped or disrupted by smaller quicker defenders. Overall, it was a good effort against a mid-major. Nothing to get excited about yet--relief is more appropriate characterization. DSR and Starks played as they need to this year, particularly if Smith is going to be surrounded by sagging defenses. Lubick was better and actually looked for a shot on occasion. Only negative was the lack of playing time for Domingo and Moses. Perhaps JT III is already returning to his preference as a short rotation coach. Aaron has no idea when to shoot or when to pass. He has no idea when to probe and penetrate off the dribble, or when to bring it out and run offense. His skill level - for being in the program for four years - is scary in its lack od development. On one play, Aaron drove smack into three guys in the middle, had DSR WIDE OPEN for a three and what could've been an easy assist. He forced the shot in traffic. That's just simple IQ out there. He's a plus athlete, but that's about it. And as a senior, he should be a much better player. Disappointed in Nate as well. He's the same player he was as a freshman too. Contrast that with Markel, who is a much much better player and who's improved in each of his off-season's. He knows those things you stated in the first paragraph....there's a difference between having the responsibility/freedom to try and create and not being one of those top options
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Nov 14, 2013 15:01:37 GMT -5
[/quote]Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing Hop start at the 4 and bring Lubick off the bench to spell Smith at 5. I think they're both better suited for those roles. [/quote] I agree with this.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Nov 14, 2013 15:09:14 GMT -5
Maybe the reason the coach, who sees these kids in practice everyday, knows that if Domingo and Hayes were playing their impacts would be negative as opposed to Moses and Bowen who have relatively no impact except for occasional spurts of positive contributions. There is also the possibility that Domingo and Hayes don't have the mental toughness to be thrown into the fire and any mistakes they make in game could be harmful to their development. I understand the sentiment of wanting to give others a chance when Moses and Bowen consistently produce very little so why not give someone else a chance because they can't produce any less. However, that works under the assumption that Thompson doesn't know what kind of production he will get out of Domingo and Hayes and that they can do no worse than Bowen and Moses. Neither of which is true. Essentially you just want III to throw players out there to prove to you that he knows what he is doing, which isn't exactly his job.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Nov 14, 2013 15:09:37 GMT -5
Aaron has no idea when to shoot or when to pass. He has no idea when to probe and penetrate off the dribble, or when to bring it out and run offense. His skill level - for being in the program for four years - is scary in its lack od development. On one play, Aaron drove smack into three guys in the middle, had DSR WIDE OPEN for a three and what could've been an easy assist. He forced the shot in traffic. That's just simple IQ out there. He's a plus athlete, but that's about it. And as a senior, he should be a much better player. Disappointed in Nate as well. He's the same player he was as a freshman too. Contrast that with Markel, who is a much much better player and who's improved in each of his off-season's. He knows those things you stated in the first paragraph....there's a difference between having the responsibility/freedom to try and create and not being one of those top options No he doesn't. He's a terrible shooter with poor form yet more than half of his career shot attempts have been 3s. He dribbles into all kinds of traffic and is unable to find the open man when he does so. He consistently gets torched on the defensive end despite his athletic gifts because he has little idea what good defensive positioning is. These are all evidence of a startling lack of growth and a general lack of basketball awareness/IQ/court sense, whatever you want to call it.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Nov 14, 2013 15:19:10 GMT -5
He knows those things you stated in the first paragraph....there's a difference between having the responsibility/freedom to try and create and not being one of those top options No he doesn't. He's a terrible shooter with poor form yet more than half of his career shot attempts have been 3s. He dribbles into all kinds of traffic and is unable to find the open man when he does so. He consistently gets torched on the defensive end despite his athletic gifts because he has little idea what good defensive positioning is. These are all evidence of a startling lack of growth and a general lack of basketball awareness/IQ/court sense, whatever you want to call it. You're just a glass half full person. I don't see his contributions, within the context of this team, in the same way that you do unfortunately. I also don't just come to conclusions about how a player has improved in the offseason just off one game. Certainly not about someone who has played sparsely in the past while being injured for 1.5 years buried in a deep rotation. III gets his players ready to play, simple as that. It's just that some years the emphasis is to get the leaders their touches.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Nov 14, 2013 15:37:32 GMT -5
No he doesn't. He's a terrible shooter with poor form yet more than half of his career shot attempts have been 3s. He dribbles into all kinds of traffic and is unable to find the open man when he does so. He consistently gets torched on the defensive end despite his athletic gifts because he has little idea what good defensive positioning is. These are all evidence of a startling lack of growth and a general lack of basketball awareness/IQ/court sense, whatever you want to call it. You're just a glass half full person. I don't see his contributions, within the context of this team, in the same way that you do unfortunately. I also don't just come to conclusions about how a player has improved in the offseason just off one game. Certainly not about someone who has played sparsely in the past while being injured for 1.5 years buried in a deep rotation. III gets his players ready to play, simple as that. It's just that some years the emphasis is to get the leaders their touches. Every coach on every team in every year puts an emphasis on getting "the leaders" (which I'm assuming means best offensive players) their touches. Doing anything other than that would be insanity and result in very poor success rates. As far as Bowen's contributions, I don't really think he makes many, if any, positive contributions to this team. Maybe the occasional putback dunk or tip in. And even those are few and far between. Does he really hurt us on the floor? No I suppose he doesn't. But if all you can say about a kid with that kind of athleticism is that he doesn't hurt the team when he plays, then that's disappointing imo. All I'm saying is with the guys behind him in the rotation, I think it's time to turn the page on Aaron. Domingo still has a chance to be a contributor for the next 2+ years. Cameron already looks like he's going to contribute as a freshman, at least offensively. I feel we would be better served letting both of those guys eat into Bowen's minutes.
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GPHoya
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Post by GPHoya on Nov 14, 2013 15:39:01 GMT -5
On the weakest link debate and with the greatest respect for SF's insights, I think that Joshua is much weaker than Lubick or DSR (who only earned substantial minutes when he committed to playing better defense) or than Sapp and Wallace which is why those teams were strong on defense (well that and Roy's size and Otto's commitment, communication and leadership). So, of course, like all truisms, the weakest link overstates a proposition that I think is susbtantially valid as evidenced by the equally valid corollary that a good defensive system must hide the weakest link.
The problem is there is no defensive system that will hide Joshua's weakness adequately and because he is the backline who should either erase mistakes or more importantly, rebound the miss and he does neither, it is a Big Problem.
I think SF agrees that man does better than the 2-3 to limit the damage done by Joshua's immobility, conditioning, fundamentals and limited commitment, but of course, that leaves other players who struggle with man-to- man in many match-ups (DSR, Nate, Bowen, Cameron) playing the wrong system and having to compensate for any even weaker center who will never bail them out.
Shivers run down my spine imagining Florida Gulf Coast against this year's defense.
That said, the Big Conundrum is that Joshus offers too much on the offensive side of the ball to leave him on the bench altogether and the alternative to Joshua is not Bill Russell.
It is tempting to run offensive/defensive substitutions from the get go and if Moses is the sub there is no risk that you will disrupt his offensive rhythm, but the most cohesive group may be Hopkins (who I think is getting better but would suffer from being switched out consistently on offensive possessions) and Lubick (who rebounds) with DSR, Markel and either Jabril or Cameron. If nothing else, it will artificially bolster Joshua's plus/minus statistic.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Nov 14, 2013 15:49:46 GMT -5
Florida Gulf Coast against this year's defense would have probably looked the same as the defense we played against it last year. Actually probably improved because that was the worst defensive performance I've ever seen. As bad as our defense is our offense is better than it was at any point last season, so there is a bright spot. If we ever knock down free throws we'll be pretty good, horrid defense or not.
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whipple
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Post by whipple on Nov 14, 2013 15:57:44 GMT -5
Cameron made three 3-pointers last night (3 for 6?). Bowen made 4 threes last year total. Domingo had 2 total. Defense is pretty mediocre for all three guys. I still like Domingo's shot (when he doesn't fade away) and would like him to get going, but I know who I want out on the floor at sf/3 when it counts.
Not worried about Joshua. When the team is up 15 and you're a behemoth, refs don't call all the reach-ins under the basket. Like Roy and Greg, he'll play better against bigger guys.
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emkmd
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Post by emkmd on Nov 14, 2013 16:00:50 GMT -5
Great game by the team. We kept pace with the mid major and put them away. That is the type of game that when the shots aren't falling we lose (ex: NCAA). Zach Lowe made mention of a strategy in the NBA where inferior teams play faster, rather than slower to beat a better team. www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9963071/the-early-season-trends-us-asking-questionsOther thoughts: If Bowen had pulled of the dunk after the steal and behind the back dribble he would have made some highlight reels. But he got blocked and turned the ball over some other times. He needs to value the ball a little more but still should see playing time. Cameron just bought himself a good bit of PT. He was given the early opportunity and produced. Domingo unfortunately has not come thru yet. Hopkins is playing well, much better at the PF position. But please, no more threes. Maybe Nate can team him how to finish at the rim. Jump up with two hands on the ball and throw it thru the center of the rim. Not into the rim. Their defense did a good job collapsing on Smith when he was in the low post and slapped the ball away a few times. "Beef" Stu correctly analyzed this saying that Josh has to keep the ball up. Othella should be able to work with him on this. Josh did not appear to fumble the ball. Often times that defensive hacking motion results in a foul call, but they got lucky, or were good to get ball. Jabril was solid but hopefully will get his jumper working. That will open up the dribble drive which he has been very effective with. Missed the dunk but would not be denied. Markel and DSR were just money. We can't expect them both to be on fire every game, but as long as one has it going from deep, we should be ok. Finally, as mentioned, practice FTs (and FT defense).
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Nov 14, 2013 16:15:30 GMT -5
Cameron made three 3-pointers last night (3 for 6?). Bowen made 4 threes last year total. Domingo had 2 total. Defense is pretty mediocre for all three guys. I still like Domingo's shot (when he doesn't fade away) and would like him to get going, but I know who I want out on the floor at sf/3 when it counts. Not worried about Joshua. When the team is up 15 and you're a behemoth, refs don't call all the reach-ins under the basket. Like Roy and Greg, he'll play better against bigger guys. Reggie was terrible on D, but hopefully he will develop enough to earn plenty of chances to score from the outside, which we need. As for Bowen vs. Domingo - Bowen is better right now, no question. When Domingo is better than Aaron, he will get his minutes. Not until then.
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