Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 21, 2005 13:14:00 GMT -5
Put it this way:
Mike Finished: 7th All Time in scoring 2nd All Time in PPG 5th All Time in Rebounds 8th All Time in RPG 6th All Time in Blocks
That's in 3 years, only 96 games... Had he played another year, he would have played four complete years with two seasons without post-season play- roughly 130 games; as a reference Pat played 143 games. Mike would have probably finished, by a conservative estimate:
1st All-Time in scoring (by over 200 points!) 2nd All-Time in PPG (only trailing Iverson's ungodly 23.0) 2nd All-Time in Rebounds (trailing Pat by 77) 5th All-Time RPG (ahead of Pat & Zo) 4th All-Time in Blocks (with Deke, Zo & Pat ahead of him) 15th All-Time in Steals (one slot below Pat & above all other Hoya big men) 20th All-Time in Assists (best for any Hoya big man)
I don't think it is a really tough argument to make, that he was not the best PF in Hoya history. If only Ewing, Alonzo and Othella can really compare to him, and they all get an extra year of stats on him...and post-season play to pad those stats, it's really hard not to say that Sweets was the best.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 21, 2005 13:27:05 GMT -5
Here's another way to look at it. If you took away Zo's senior year, here's how he'd stack up:
Points: 1320 (16) Rebounds: 689 (13) Blocks: 293 (4) PPG: 15.0 (21) RPG: 7.8 (16)
Or here's Pat: Points: 1642 (10) Rebounds: 975 (5) Blocks: 358 (3) PPG: 14.8 (21) RPG: 8.8 (10)
Now, I'm not taking away from Pat or Zo, because they are two of my favorite Hoyas of All-Time, but I thought some of the comments about Mike were ridiculous. The fact is, he is the only player (outside of AI) in recent history who is in the same category as these greats. That's no slight to those big men of the past, but Mike deserves his due. He is the best PF to ever play at GU...
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Post by Fan Of The Game on Jan 21, 2005 13:53:28 GMT -5
Put it this way: Mike Finished: 7th All Time in scoring 2nd All Time in PPG 5th All Time in Rebounds 8th All Time in RPG 6th All Time in Blocks That's in 3 years, only 96 games... Had he played another year, he would have played four complete years with two seasons without post-season play- roughly 130 games; as a reference Pat played 143 games. Mike would have probably finished, by a conservative estimate: 1st All-Time in scoring (by over 200 points!) 2nd All-Time in PPG (only trailing Iverson's ungodly 23.0) 2nd All-Time in Rebounds (trailing Pat by 77) 5th All-Time RPG (ahead of Pat & Zo) 4th All-Time in Blocks (with Deke, Zo & Pat ahead of him) 15th All-Time in Steals (one slot below Pat & above all other Hoya big men) 20th All-Time in Assists (best for any Hoya big man) I don't think it is a really tough argument to make, that he was not the best PF in Hoya history. If only Ewing, Alonzo and Othella can really compare to him, and they all get an extra year of stats on him...and post-season play to pad those stats, it's really hard not to say that Sweets was the best. I'll agree somewhat that Sweets shouldn't be penalized for leaving early...but don't go crediting him with that which he did not do. I'm not a big "projections" guy in terms of measuring someone's success. That all said, Big Mike was probably my favorite Hoya ever. Had he either a) stayed four years and become the top scorer in Hoya history OR b) been able to bring the Hoyas a Big East championship then I'd say put him on the top tier. Those things didn't happen so he's more a level 3 type guy.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 21, 2005 14:01:56 GMT -5
Cambridge, you missed the boat on what I was trying to say this whole time. I always said Mike was a great player, and a great stat stuffer. But I'm not talking just stats here. Stats alone doesn't make you a great player, it makes you a good player, not necessarily a great one. There are also intangibles which, in my opinion, Mike lacked. I will say this to the cows come home. You can pull every stat out the book, but Mike was not Zo or Ewing. I'm sorry to bust your bubble. Mike Sweetney was like Cal Ripken. Great player, always showed up in games, well-liked on and off the court, an icon to the local fans, great stats, etc. But the knock on Cal was that he wasn't really a leader in the clubhouse for a guy of his stature. You mentioned AI, Ewing, and Zo. Those guys were not only great players, they were great leaders. They had that "it" factor you just can't put your finger on. In my opinion, Mike Sweetney wasn't and didn't have those qualities. Again, its my opinion. No fact, no law, no bill of right. Just my opinion. I don't mean to offend anyone or invade somone's comfort zone, but that is just my opinion. Okay?
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 21, 2005 14:06:31 GMT -5
Thanks Cambridge-its nice to get some stats as opposed to just having a bunch of biased observations. Then again, I think it's important to remember that Sweetney had a huge impact on the program-b/c he left early, the Hoyas were putrid last year (instead of just mediocre), and he got fired, thereby leading to the JT3 era-that's a positive impact if I saw one. Secondly, I mentioned this earlier, but I didn't see a response- I heard that one of the big reasons JTII left was b/c of AI ushering in the era of leaving early in GTown BBall-it was the beginning of the end, if you will. Now, is that right, or just some unfounded rumour? The reason JTII left was because, basketball wasn't his entire life. He was one of the best coaching it, but he wanted to enjoy life outside of it as well. Its very hard to do that while coaching,recruiting, etc. Coaching is a 24/7 job. Plus, he had his divorce thing going on as well. JTII was on cruise control since 1989 in terms of coaching,and you can kind of tell with his team's records and recruiting, save for the Iverson era. He wasn't Bob Knight, or Coach K were their whole life and ego are centered on basketball, and will coach into their seventies or even eighties. JTII wasn't that type of guy.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 21, 2005 14:21:27 GMT -5
I'm not talking about high school rankings, first of all. Alonzo was not overhyped, he was the best player coming out of high school. No one wrote that Zo was overhyped so stop making up stuff to fit your argument. Lets stick to what was actually written. Okay? You're damn right I'm a Mike Sweetney fan. Should I apologize for that or something? I'm also an Alonzo Mourning fan. A Charles Smith fan. A Dwayne Bryant fan. An Iverson fan. A Mutombo fan. A Jerome Willams fan. A Bowman fan. A Darrell Owens fan. What's your point? I'm also a huge fan of Othella Harrington and Ruben Boumtje Boumtje and yet I can also be very objective concerning the limitations of their games and their performances. Doesn't mean that I like them or that they didn't do somethings better than other Hoyas. Every GU player had weaknesses, even the greatest of Hoya players. I'm not dogging them by pointing it out. Actually in my opinion it is. And? So did I. In fact all but two televised games that Zo played while at GU I still have on tape. And I know his strengths and weaknesses as much as you. I trust my assessment of him just as you trust yours and if you don't mind I will hold on to my opinion. No its accurate. First of all Zo could throw out of a double team but he could never make the great passes to open teammates. He would simply throw it out to the teammate closest to him which is often referred to as a "two-man game". That was the easiest and less effective pass, one that would be less likely to lead to a score. But could Zo find a teammate with a cross court pass who is initially out of his field of vision? He didn't do that very much unlike Sweetney who always seemed to know where the open teammate was located. Could Zo deal with two or three defenders surrounding him in the paint by making a soft, deft bounce pass to an open teammate on the baseline for an uncontested bucket? Never saw much of that. Sweetney, though, did that repeatedly. He single-handedly ripped apart Syracuse's 2-3 zone with his ability to pass. That's just the hard cold facts. The 88-89 and 89-90 teams that Zo played on were superior to any of Sweetney's Hoya teams in terms of talent. But why don't you go to an archives and look up Zo's assists totals in each of those seasons and compared them to Sweetney's numbers during his last two seasons. I don't think Zo even comes close. And Sweets has him beat with post moves. As great as Alonzo was at all levels I never recalled anyone raving about his post moves or footwork. His post up abilities were limited. He got his points off of one or two power moves in which he went the same direction every time, free throw attempts and just by outworking his opponents and wanting it more. But he was NEVER smooth with his dropstep moves, or turnaround jumpers, or demonstration of going left or right and finishing with either hand, or showing array of graceful footwork in the paint. Sweets though has been lauded for that. People who never expected of him are just surprised how graceful and smoothly he moves with that big body of his. I can randomly pull out five Hoya games on tape right now for both Zo and Sweets. If I watch them not only could I see the evidence again with my own eyes, I would also most likely not hear the announcers say anything about Zo having excellent footwork and dexterity (in terms of hands). They will rave about Zo I other ways but not in those areas. But they will rave about Sweetney when it comes to posting up, footwork, using the glass, putting his body effectively between his body and the ball, his passing, his high basketball IQ. I can barely go a game without the announcers, people who make a living out of watching basketball, raving about Sweetney in these and other areas. That being said the problem you seem to be having is that you THINK I’m suggesting Sweetney is a better player for being better at certain skills than Zo is. Of course I never wrote any such thing. If I had to choose having a young Sweetney or having a young Zo to start my team I would go with Alonzo. Alonzo is the ultimate warrior although it gets him into trouble at times. He also affects both ends of the floor in a way that Sweetney can’t. As much as I applaud Sweetney for becoming a shot blocker his final season, his ability to deflect shots doesn’t come close to Mourning’s. I think that Mourning was the best shot blocker I have ever seen. He made it into an artform that no one since has matched. Considering that, considering he will give you 18 to 20 points a game when in college and considering he is my favorite Hoya he is the first player that I would choose (and I’m choosing from ’88 to the present because that is when I first started following the team) if I was trying to pick players for a Gtown team. But I must say Sweets was son good that I would have to give him (and AI) serious consideration for that first pick and for that I won’t apologize. Sweets and Zo were both fantastic players. Sweets didn’t have Zo’s inner fire or outward “excitability” but he had just as much determination and a seren approach that allowed him to never be taken mentally out of the game. Zo’s ability to be baited and taken out of a game psychologically when he lost control of his emotions is one reason why Dennis Rodman and the Bulls (as well as many inferior college players when he was at GU) were able to get into his head. If you don’t admit that you are simply being revisionist. I’m not. I can be a fan of Zo and Sweetney while recognizing their weaknesses. Stop doubting my appreciation for Zo as well as my understanding of the game. Zo lived up to his expectations as a great player coming out of high school and should be applauded for that. Sweets surpassed all expectations coming out of high school and should be equally cheered for that. Next of all I think it is telling that in all your rebuttals you have steered clear of my initial dispute with you which was your assertion that Sweetney was not in the same league of Graham and Shelton. Both of us agree Zo was a great player so why keep bringing it up. But please use your powers of persuasion to argue your assertion that Sweetney was inferior to Graham and Shelton because I’m dying to rip into it. Keep on ignoring what I wrote about who my actual favorite player is all you want if you think that helps your argument. Point is though its not true. Unlike you it seems I can be objective enough about my favorite player to admit that another guy did things better.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 21, 2005 14:25:14 GMT -5
I am not big into projections either, but I feel this is a unique area where it is appropriate. You see, as much as we adore Pat and Zo, had the NBA been regularly drafting high schoolers, college sophomores and the like...well, quite frankly they wouldn't have finished out their four year careers.
In fact, you could make a real solid argument that in the modern era, it would be highly unlikely that Pat would have returned for the 1984-85 campaign after his success in the 1983-84 championship. His draft value would simply have been far too high.
Therefore, I used a projection as well as adjusted Zo and Ewing stats (their careers minus their last year) to put Mike in perspective. I am not saying he would definitely have finished where I projected, nor is that particularly relevant, but I think it is astonishing how well he stacks up to such iconic figures in just about every category.
As far as intangibles go, I don't buy it. Sure, Mike wasn't a vocal member of the team, but if you honestly don't believe that he shouldered his team as much, if not more, than Pat or Zo did, then you are mistaken. He was an absolute beast in the paint.
He didn't get the media hype, he didn't "throw it down" -- preferring an old school kiss off the glass, but he finished only second to Zo in most free throws made in a season. He always got fouled and he finished nearly every time. He could break any big man down with his post moves and he had the softest hands of any big man I have ever seen.
What he lacked was the explosive athleticism that both Patrick and Zo had. They could run the court and absolutely jump out of the gym. Watching old games of Patrick in college, and seeing him bound down the court like a gazelle is awe-inspiring, but the truth of the matter is, Mike improved significantly over the course of his career -- thanks in large part to Ronny I imagine -- and became extremely mobile for his build.
Some lead with words, other lead by example...Mike was the later. If you are really blaming him for the collapse of chemistry under Esh, you are deluding yourself. I don't think even the most charasmatic leader could have held that sinking ship together. And, you citing Iverson, who btw is my favorite Hoya of all time, as having had more of a leadership role, is just laughable. If you think Iverson could have held the 2002-2003 Hoya's together, well, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
And, while stats are not the be all and end all of college basketball, they tend to paint a pretty reliable picture. You can poo poo stats all you want, but the fact is, he is unlike Cal Ripken Jr in just about everyway...because Cal's stats are inflated by his playing so long. Sweetneys are high despite him playing over 50 games less than Zo and Ewing! If anything he is a Jim Rice figure, if you want a baseball analogy.
In my opinion, a better comparison to Cal would be Braswell, whose stats get a healthy amount of help from being the starting PG from day 1.
Anyways, I don't mean to go on and on with this, but I think it's plain ridiculous to not give Mike his props. The man earned it on the court...the stats and the film clips we have bear that out.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 21, 2005 14:30:11 GMT -5
Great job, Cambridge. I wrote that Sweetney stacked up well in his numbers after three years and would have broken some big records if he had stayed four. You though took the opportunity to actually do the math. Good work. Best. Hoya. Power. Forward. Ever.
Until someone else comes along of course.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 21, 2005 14:32:09 GMT -5
In some ways, this conversation reminds me of arguments between classic rock zealots and hipsters...
one side discounting all innovation after 1975 to preserve the memory of the past greats
the other inadvertently disparaging the legacy of the past to make their argument
I typically hate that type of argument, because I have respect for the past, present and future and claim no allegiances to any "era" in particular.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 21, 2005 14:33:05 GMT -5
I am not big into projections either, but I feel this is a unique area where it is appropriate. You see, as much as we adore Pat and Zo, had the NBA been regularly drafting high schoolers, college sophomores and the like...well, quite frankly they wouldn't have finished out their four year careers. In fact, you could make a real solid argument that in the modern era, it would be highly unlikely that Pat would have returned for the 1984-85 campaign after his success in the 1983-84 championship. His draft value would simply have been far too high. Therefore, I used a projection as well as adjusted Zo and Ewing stats (their careers minus their last year) to put Mike in perspective. I am not saying he would definitely have finished where I projected, nor is that particularly relevant, but I think it is astonishing how well he stacks up to such iconic figures in just about every category. As far as intangibles go, I don't buy it. Sure, Mike wasn't a vocal member of the team, but if you honestly don't believe that he shouldered his team as much, if not more, than Pat or Zo did, then you are mistaken. He was an absolute beast in the paint. He didn't get the media hype, he didn't "throw it down" -- preferring an old school kiss off the glass, but he finished only second to Zo in most free throws made in a season. He always got fouled and he finished nearly every time. He could break any big man down with his post moves and he had the softest hands of any big man I have ever seen. What he lacked was the explosive athleticism that both Patrick and Zo had. They could run the court and absolutely jump out of the gym. Watching old games of Patrick in college, and seeing him bound down the court like a gazelle is awe-inspiring, but the truth of the matter is, Mike improved significantly over the course of his career -- thanks in large part to Ronny I imagine -- and became extremely mobile for his build. Some lead with words, other lead by example...Mike was the later. If you are really blaming him for the collapse of chemistry under Esh, you are deluding yourself. I don't think even the most charasmatic leader could have held that sinking ship together. And, you citing Iverson, who btw is my favorite Hoya of all time, as having had more of a leadership role, is just laughable. If you think Iverson could have held the 2002-2003 Hoya's together, well, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. And, while stats are not the be all and end all of college basketball, they tend to paint a pretty reliable picture. You can poo poo stats all you want, but the fact is, he is unlike Cal Ripken Jr in just about everyway...because Cal's stats are inflated by his playing so long. Sweetneys are high despite him playing over 50 games less than Zo and Ewing! If anything he is a Jim Rice figure, if you want a baseball analogy. In my opinion, a better comparison to Cal would be Braswell, whose stats get a healthy amount of help from being the starting PG from day 1. Anyways, I don't mean to go on and on with this, but I think it's plain ridiculous to not give Mike his props. The man earned it on the court...the stats and the film clips we have bear that out. Post of the year. Iwon't attempt to do better, I couldn't do better. You made my argument more effectively than I did.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 21, 2005 14:34:39 GMT -5
No one wrote that Zo was overhyped so stop making up stuff to fit your argument. Lets stick to what was actually written. Okay? You're damn right I'm a Mike Sweetney fan. Should I apologize for that or something? I'm also an Alonzo Mourning fan. A Charles Smith fan. A Dwayne Bryant fan. An Iverson fan. A Mutombo fan. A Jerome Willams fan. A Bowman fan. A Darrell Owens fan. What's your point? I'm also a huge fan of Othella Harrington and Ruben Boumtje Boumtje and yet I can also be very objective concerning the limitations of their games and their performances. Doesn't mean that I like them or that they didn't do somethings better than other Hoyas. Every GU player had weaknesses, even the greatest of Hoya players. I'm not dogging them by pointing it out. Actually in my opinion it is. And? So did I. In fact all but two televised games that Zo played while at GU I still have on tape. And I know his strengths and weaknesses as much as you. I trust my assessment of him just as you trust yours and if you don't mind I will hold on to my opinion. No its accurate. First of all Zo could throw out of a double team but he could never make the great passes to open teammates. He would simply throw it out to the teammate closest to him which is often referred to as a "two-man game". That was the easiest and less effective pass, one that would be less likely to lead to a score. But could Zo find a teammate with a cross court pass who is initially out of his field of vision? He didn't do that very much unlike Sweetney who always seemed to know where the open teammate was located. Could Zo deal with two or three defenders surrounding him in the paint by making a soft, deft bounce pass to an open teammate on the baseline for an uncontested bucket? Never saw much of that. Sweetney, though, did that repeatedly. He single-handedly ripped apart Syracuse's 2-3 zone with his ability to pass. That's just the hard cold facts. The 88-89 and 89-90 teams that Zo played on were superior to any of Sweetney's Hoya teams in terms of talent. But why don't you go to an archives and look up Zo's assists totals in each of those seasons and compared them to Sweetney's numbers during his last two seasons. I don't think Zo even comes close. And Sweets has him beat with post moves. As great as Alonzo was at all levels I never recalled anyone raving about his post moves or footwork. His post up abilities were limited. He got his points off of one or two power moves in which he went the same direction every time, free throw attempts and just by outworking his opponents and wanting it more. But he was NEVER smooth with his dropstep moves, or turnaround jumpers, or demonstration of going left or right and finishing with either hand, or showing array of graceful footwork in the paint. Sweets though has been lauded for that. People who never expected of him are just surprised how graceful and smoothly he moves with that big body of his. I can randomly pull out five Hoya games on tape right now for both Zo and Sweets. If I watch them not only could I see the evidence again with my own eyes, I would also most likely not hear the announcers say anything about Zo having excellent footwork and dexterity (in terms of hands). They will rave about Zo I other ways but not in those areas. But they will rave about Sweetney when it comes to posting up, footwork, using the glass, putting his body effectively between his body and the ball, his passing, his high basketball IQ. I can barely go a game without the announcers, people who make a living out of watching basketball, raving about Sweetney in these and other areas. That being said the problem you seem to be having is that you THINK I’m suggesting Sweetney is a better player for being better at certain skills than Zo is. Of course I never wrote any such thing. If I had to choose having a young Sweetney or having a young Zo to start my team I would go with Alonzo. Alonzo is the ultimate warrior although it gets him into trouble at times. He also affects both ends of the floor in a way that Sweetney can’t. As much as I applaud Sweetney for becoming a shot blocker his final season, his ability to deflect shots doesn’t come close to Mourning’s. I think that Mourning was the best shot blocker I have ever seen. He made it into an artform that no one since has matched. Considering that, considering he will give you 18 to 20 points a game when in college and considering he is my favorite Hoya he is the first player that I would choose (and I’m choosing from ’88 to the present because that is when I first started following the team) if I was trying to pick players for a Gtown team. But I must say Sweets was son good that I would have to give him (and AI) serious consideration for that first pick and for that I won’t apologize. Sweets and Zo were both fantastic players. Sweets didn’t have Zo’s inner fire or outward “excitability” but he had just as much determination and a seren approach that allowed him to never be taken mentally out of the game. Zo’s ability to be baited and taken out of a game psychologically when he lost control of his emotions is one reason why Dennis Rodman and the Bulls (as well as many inferior college players when he was at GU) were able to get into his head. If you don’t admit that you are simply being revisionist. I’m not. I can be a fan of Zo and Sweetney while recognizing their weaknesses. Stop doubting my appreciation for Zo as well as my understanding of the game. Zo lived up to his expectations as a great player coming out of high school and should be applauded for that. Sweets surpassed all expectations coming out of high school and should be equally cheered for that. Next of all I think it is telling that in all your rebuttals you have steered clear of my initial dispute with you which was your assertion that Sweetney was not in the same league of Graham and Shelton. Both of us agree Zo was a great player so why keep bringing it up. But please use your powers of persuasion to argue your assertion that Sweetney was inferior to Graham and Shelton because I’m dying to rip into it. Keep on ignoring what I wrote about who my actual favorite player is all you want if you think that helps your argument. Point is though its not true. Unlike you it seems I can be objective enough about my favorite player to admit that another guy did things better. Well, the defense rests your honor, LOL! ;D We agree to disagree. This ain't point-counterpoint. Don't tell me about Mike didn't have great talent around him. Zo had more stiffs his final two years at G'town than Mike. Michael Graham and Shelton were better than Mike Sweetney in terms of talent and what the contributed to their team's success. Don't get so riled-up. You take things so personal. Lighten up bit. Its only words. You guys can have your stats and projections. That don't win championships or produce winning ball clubs. The intangibles do.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 21, 2005 14:50:26 GMT -5
Well, the defense rests your honor, LOL! ;D We agree to disagree. This ain't point-counterpoint. Don't tell me about Mike didn't have great talent around him. Zo had more stiffs his final two years at G'town than Mike. Zo as a junior still had Dikembe. Zo in his first two years was surrounded by talent that Mike never had. And in all of his four years Zo had a Hall of Fame coach running the show. You can keep throwing it but I'll knock that argument out of the park every day. So you are criticizing me for bringing up actual numbers Sweetney put up and yet you are superficial enough to judge talent based upon someone's leaping ability. The only thing Graham had over Sweets was hops. In terms of having an all around game its not even close: Sweets wins. And Sweets get extra points for not being a negative at times by throwing a bunch of punches on the court and for not failing in the classroom. Sweets led by example on and of the court and Gtown should be lucky to have had him. If Sweets had been the power forward not only would the Hoyas still probably have won in '84 but he would have been around in '85 to help them win it again. Nuff said. How's [b[that[/b] for an intangible?
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 21, 2005 14:50:51 GMT -5
Hell, if I had more stats to go off of, beside the wonderful resources of hoyabasketball.com, I'd do a possession efficiency analysis and many other fascinating studies to further determine it.
But if you want some more interesting tidbits:
Mike had three of the top 50 single game scoring efforts: 38 on 2/1/03 vs. ND (15) 35 on 2/9/02 vs. ND (33) 35 on 1/13/03 vs. WV (34)
Only Jim Barry (5) and Allen Iverson (7) had more...
He also had three of the top 50 single game rebounding efforts: 20 on 2/9/02 vs. ND (11) 19 on 1/12/03 vs. WVA (19) 19 on 3/1/03 vs. Syracuse (20)
Only Charlie Adrion (4), Mike Laughna (5) and Merlin Wilson (6) had more...
By comparison, Ewing only had two of the top scoring efforts (vs. Southern & Seton Hall) and none of the top 50 rebounding. Zo had 1 of the top 50 scoring efforts and 1 (vs BC) of the top 50 rebounding (vs UDC).
BTW, on a side note, Iverson is another fascinating statistical study. I mean his numbers at first glance seem great, until you remember he only played two years...at which point they become phenomenal.
I mean two years, 67 games and 7 of the highest scoring games of all time. An incredible 11% of all his games at Georgetown are on that list...not to mention they are all in the top 25 of single game scoring efforts...and none of them are against teams like Southern or UDC...it's all BE or Tourney play. Amazing. Truly amazing.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 21, 2005 14:53:38 GMT -5
Yeah, we use to discuss all the time that if Iverson was a four year player he would have put the records out of reach at GU. Plus I do believe he would have made it to at least one Final Four.
Victor Page's numbers aren't that bad either for a two year player.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Jan 21, 2005 15:02:27 GMT -5
In fact, you could make a real solid argument that in the modern era, it would be highly unlikely that Pat would have returned for the 1984-85 campaign after his success in the 1983-84 championship. His draft value would simply have been far too high. Actually -- in the modern era -- chances are he never would have made it to college in the first place. As far as intangibles go, I don't buy it. Sure, Mike wasn't a vocal member of the team, but if you honestly don't believe that he shouldered his team as much, if not more, than Pat or Zo did, then you are mistaken. I have an example for that. Remember the Duke game at Cameron? GU was right in it through most of the first half until Sweetney went out with foul trouble. The team was instantly deflated and folded. The game was lost right there. Why? because every Hoya on the court knew their leader was gone. Nothing like an actual demonstration to prove a point.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 21, 2005 15:07:50 GMT -5
Man, it's a good thing the_way didn't go after RBB...I'd hate to see MCI's reaction then.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,420
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Post by the_way on Jan 21, 2005 15:25:41 GMT -5
Man, it's a good thing the_way didn't go after RBB...I'd hate to see MCI's reaction then. Actually I liked RBB, and Jahidi as well. Jahidi was just so foul-prone. I mean he committed felonies when he fouled you. And RBB had those two unfortunate injuries.
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MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,426
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 21, 2005 15:28:06 GMT -5
Man, it's a good thing the_way didn't go after RBB...I'd hate to see MCI's reaction then. Actually my book writing career is over so there is nothing to worry about. ;D
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,420
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Post by the_way on Jan 21, 2005 15:29:38 GMT -5
Book writing?
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