Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 19, 2005 15:42:53 GMT -5
I think we need to have an indepth discussion on the various requirements for each level...man, this is exciting.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 19, 2005 15:51:00 GMT -5
For example what are the benchmark stats we are considering and what level should they be set at:
Points Rebounds Assists Blocks
What else?
Also I think we should deal with people leaving for the NBA or other reasons as if their careers ended and they had an "injury" shortened career.
Any other thoughts as I start to modify the pyramid to fit Georgetown players...
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 19, 2005 16:02:37 GMT -5
I think you need to factor postseason into it Cambridge. I'm not sure how important it should be, but it should definately be a factor-same w/ postseason awards including All Americans, Player of the Year (though I assume Ewing is tier 5 no matter how you look at it) and Big East POYs.
And I'm not sure how to handle players that left early-while I think it should count against you if you left early, its hard to dock Sweetney or AI when odds are that Ewing, etc would have left early if that had been acceptable at the time. Also, should a player like Bowman get extra points b/c he stays all 4 years? Something to consider.
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hoyadrummer
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Post by hoyadrummer on Jan 19, 2005 16:16:57 GMT -5
IMO, whether or not you dock a player for leaving, or give them credit for staying depends on why they left or stayed, and what their departure/staying did for the porgram. Some examples:
Sweetney - no penalty, there was no reason on this earth for him to stay at Georgetown. One of the few players I would have ever advised to leave early.
Vic Page - penalty, he left and the Hoyas fell into NIT-dom, was he solely responsible, no. But considering that he left to swing a broom in the CBA, he gets a penalty.
Iverson - minor penalty, he left, and that hurt the program, but he was drafted #1 and started putting up huge numbers right away in the NBA. Why does he still get some penalty and Sweets none - b/c he needed to stay and grow up, Sweets already knew how to carry himself like a man.
Braswell - no credit, - exactly where was he going to go? And how did he help by staying? Had Nat passed the ball to him in Boise (as the play was supposed to go) we're looking at another missed ugly three and no trip to the sweet sixteen.
Watkins - no credit, it was nice that he came back, but he didn't really do much.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 19, 2005 17:09:49 GMT -5
IMO, whether or not you dock a player for leaving, or give them credit for staying depends on why they left or stayed, and what their departure/staying did for the porgram. Some examples: Sweetney - no penalty, there was no reason on this earth for him to stay at Georgetown. One of the few players I would have ever advised to leave early. Vic Page - penalty, he left and the Hoyas fell into NIT-dom, was he solely responsible, no. But considering that he left to swing a broom in the CBA, he gets a penalty. Iverson - minor penalty, he left, and that hurt the program, but he was drafted #1 and started putting up huge numbers right away in the NBA. Why does he still get some penalty and Sweets none - b/c he needed to stay and grow up, Sweets already knew how to carry himself like a man. Braswell - no credit, - exactly where was he going to go? And how did he help by staying? Had Nat passed the ball to him in Boise (as the play was supposed to go) we're looking at another missed ugly three and no trip to the sweet sixteen. Watkins - no credit, it was nice that he came back, but he didn't really do much. Your penaltys and no credits are ridiculous. Victor and Iverson should not be penalized for leaving school if they could earn a living by doing so. Braswell was one of the better G'town players in the last 10 years. How can you make that statement!? Sweetney? He jumped ship when the going got tough. He didn't even the invite the coach who stuck up for him against Big East officials to the NBA draft. What kind of man is that? If anything he should be penalized.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 19, 2005 17:09:59 GMT -5
Some potential benchmarks:
Career Totals: Points: 1000 Rebounds: 500 Assists: 250 Blocks: 100 Steal: 100
Career Averages: PPG: 12.0 RPG: 6.0 APG: 3.0 BPG: 2.0 SPG: 2.0
Acheivements: Wooden Award Big East Player of the Year Big East Defensive Player of the Year Big East Rookie of the Year All-American Team 1, 2, 3 & HM All-Big East Team 1, 2, 3 & HM All-Big East Rookie Team
Team Acheivements: NCAA Championship NIT Championship BET Championship
Intangibles & Others: Best Player on the Team Best Player in the Conference Best Player in the Country Best Player at their Position in the Conference Best Player at their Position in the Country Absolutely dominant seasons or games Ability to just take over a game Ability to carry a team Key participation in memorable games Impact on program & legacy Length of Tenure at GU
Other suggestions?
PS updated with TBird's suggestions
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angus
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Post by angus on Jan 19, 2005 17:15:49 GMT -5
Victor and Iverson should not be penalized for leaving school if they could earn a living by doing so . . . Sweetney? He jumped ship when the going got tough. He didn't even the invite the coach who stuck up for him against Big East officials to the NBA draft. What kind of man is that? If anything he should be penalized. ______________________ Iverson and Page should not be penalized for leaving early, but Sweetney should? Please reconcile that apparent inconsistency.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 19, 2005 17:21:27 GMT -5
I think that these should also be considered as kind of a bonus:
Years where player is unquestioned best player on the team. (Sweetney in 2002-03, but not BB this year, for example. Like Ewing had 2 years where he was the unquestioned best player (84, 85)-though, I might be wrong about this, as my Hoya history isn't the strongest)
Extra Years at Gtown -this would be for the modern era of leaving early and apply to those players that stayed an extra year or two past what they had to-like if Sweets or AI had stayed another year. I don't think they should be penalized for leaving early except when the discussion moves up whether or not they are in the top tier. Not that I think it should keep them out necessarily, but it should be taken into consideration.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 19, 2005 17:39:33 GMT -5
I agree and I added those two factors to the list above...
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 19, 2005 17:46:21 GMT -5
Cambridge, honestly, I like the Sports Guy's designations.
As far as stats go, they can only go so far in basketball. David Wingate made the pros, but his numbers pale in comparison to Braswell's. The surrounding talent was the key issue, I think.
Still, stats need to be considered, and as best best can, we should also consider shooting %, PPS, turnovers, etc.
Plus, defense (not steals and blocks) really needs to be factored in.
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Jan 19, 2005 17:54:13 GMT -5
Cambridge, honestly, I like the Sports Guy's designations. As far as stats go, they can only go so far in basketball. David Wingate made the pros, but his numbers pale in comparison to Braswell's. The surrounding talent was the key issue, I think. Still, stats need to be considered, and as best best can, we should also consider shooting %, PPS, turnovers, etc. Plus, defense (not steals and blocks) really needs to be factored in. Wingate was never the MAIN guy...he always had to share the spotlight and the rock with Reggie, Pat and others...
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 19, 2005 17:59:22 GMT -5
Wingate was never the MAIN guy...he always had to share the spotlight and the rock with Reggie, Pat and others... Yep, that was my point. Stats need to be used, but in context.
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HoyaSAXA
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Post by HoyaSAXA on Jan 19, 2005 19:42:28 GMT -5
i think he could be in the last top 20. personally i never really thought he took a leading stand, and he just made frehsman mistakes alot, and it made me mad. so i would consider him prorbly like 18, 19, 20 in top 20 ever. i have never been a big fan of him, im more of a lee scruggs, DJ, Green kind of guy, as of late.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Jan 19, 2005 20:27:06 GMT -5
I honestly think that Ewing should be in a level above all of the other players that we've mentioned so far. Its hard to measure his impact on Georgetown University as a community. If you look at Georgetown before Thompson and Ewing made history and afterwards there is a marked change in how athletics are measured at Georgetown and how the University considered saw itself on a national stage.
Just to go a bit further and look at the impacts on the community.
1) Ewing's play set an extremely high standard for all Georgetown teams and players that followed. So much so that incredible players such as Mutombo, Mourning, and Iverson were not considered to be at the level of Ewing.
2) Success was measured in terms of hanging NCAA banners in McDonough each year - preferably with Sweet 16, Elite 8, Final 4, Runner Up, or Champions written on them. An NIT season was considered a lost opportunity and a season with no appearance got a coach fired.
3) Georgetown alumni, boosters, students, and administration made the decision that academic and athletic success were not mutually exclusive goals and made a long term committment to athletics not seen at some schools ranked near Georgetown in such publications as US News and World Report (I know their rankings aren't accurate for several reasons ... but its still a valid point). If 1982-1985 hadn't happened would we there be a multi-sport facility project? Would Georgetown still be committed to D-IA athletics on almost every level? Would athletics projects have withstood the financial crunch that faced the end of President O'Donnovan's tenior and the beginning of President DeGioia's?
4) Ewing's impact on the University can also be seen in its increased name and brand recognition nationally. Before Ewing lead the Hoya's to our only NCAA championship and some magical NCAA moments, Georgetown was a liberal arts college with additional colleges specializing in foreign service, nursing and health studies, and business - it was a good school and had an impressive regional reputation on the East Coast - sort of like Rice University in the South and South West today - a fine school but not one with national name recognition. Ewing's play and its coverage on ESPN enabled Georgetown University to have national name recognition as the home of a superior Jesuit education. Without the play of Ewing it has to be asked if Georgetown would have been able to compete for the services of some of the United States' most impressive professors?
I think that Ewing has an impact that transcended sport, and that is why he should be placed in his own category.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 19, 2005 20:34:39 GMT -5
I think that Cambridge has a pretty good set of criteria for determining which tier each player should be in: the more of his criteria a player fulfills, the higher they should be-it's an adaptation of the Sports Guy's levels from baseball to basketball-also, obviously, its really hard to decide how many of the criteria needs to be fulfilled to be considered each level-I'll leave that up to greater Hoya minds (along w/ actually ranking the players, as I really don't know that much about pre 2001 teams besides the big name NBA guys). Anyway, here's the requirements for each tier (I took a tier out b/c I don't think that 5 tiers are needed b/c there isn't that big of a sample to choose from like there is for a baseball hall of fame-I combined Tier 1 and 2 from the SG)
Tier 1: Players who are really good but are missing something, either statwise, postseason wise or because they were never THE STAR on their team. Tier 2: People who were stars, but are missing the criteria to be included in Tier 3. Tier 3: Players who not only were stars but have fulfilled enough of the criteria that they have to be included in a best Hoya ever discussion, players who you will remember watching forever. Tier 4: This is the best of the best. Players such as Ewing, Mourning. (Iverson and Sweets aren't locks for this level, that's how stringent it is).
So, anyway, where do players fit here? Where do the great basketball minds of this board think players like Sleepy, AI, Mutumbo, Braswell (and Bowman, both as of right now and a prediction for where he'll be after he finishes) fit?
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 19, 2005 20:42:06 GMT -5
And just to get the discussion started, here's where I'd put the players I feel qualified to rank:
Tier 1: I can't think of a player who I'd put here (remember there's a limited pool of players I'm picking from) Ashanti might end up here after he's done, provided he continues to improve and the Hoyas make some postseason noise this year and next year.
Tier 2: This is where Bowman fits AS OF RIGHT NOW. He's been good, he's got the stats, but he hasn't done enough yet to get to Tier 3.
Tier 3: I'd put AI in here b/c he left after 2 years and I'd put Sweetney here as well b/c while he was a monster, he wasn't here for 4 years and b/c he played on some mediocre teams. I also think this is where Bowman will be after he finishes, b/c hopefully he'll have led us to 2 straight years of postseason play w/ a big run in the NCAAs his senior year.
Tier 4: This is simple-Ewing and Mourning. They stayed 4 years and were absolutely dominant during their time here. They made GTown Big Man U and had tons of postseason success.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 19, 2005 21:48:40 GMT -5
I think you need five tiers -- Tbird's weird HOF shows there's not enough delineation. You jump from Bowman to Iverson? That's insane.
Also, TBird, I like Ashanti, but...no. Is Anthony Perry making this thing? They are both good players, but that's like inducting Allan Houston into the NBA HOF.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 19, 2005 23:44:51 GMT -5
I think, we need to create a sixth tier which would just be Ewing and that's it...that's not taking away from anyone, but the man absolutely transcended greatness and defined Georgetown.
I have to think more about the other levels, but 6 is definitely just for big Pat...
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 20, 2005 1:26:48 GMT -5
I think you need five tiers -- Tbird's weird HOF shows there's not enough delineation. You jump from Bowman to Iverson? That's insane. Also, TBird, I like Ashanti, but...no. Is Anthony Perry making this thing? They are both good players, but that's like inducting Allan Houston into the NBA HOF. Yeah, well, 4 tiers seemed liked it might work, but then again, I also have no idea who Anthony Perry is. Not a clue. Go ahead and bump it up to 5 tiers. As I've been trying to say, I don't know a lot of Hoya history. I don't really have a lot of players to draw from, hence why I shrunk it (and used Ashanti). That was my feeble attempt to get the thread moving from criteria to actual rankings, so if you don't like mine (which odds are most people don't) replace it w/ something better.
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GUHoya07
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Post by GUHoya07 on Jan 20, 2005 1:30:50 GMT -5
I believe Perry was a really highly ranked guy coming out of high school, maybe even an All American. However, he was just mediocre at GU and while he probably played well at times he was a major dissapointment in general. Im gonna check hoyabasketball.com for more details because I dont actually know how his stats match up to other players.
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