hoyadrummer
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Class of 2000
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Post by hoyadrummer on Jan 20, 2005 16:45:37 GMT -5
I think Sweets was better than Reid, but give Reid credit, it wasn't a "tip-in", he materialized under the basket from no where to catch an Iverson shot that was feet short of the basket and throw it over his shoulder for a no look basket with less than a second on the clock. One of the best single plays by a Hoya. Ever.
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Post by michiganhoya on Jan 20, 2005 16:45:58 GMT -5
You're right . .. Don Reid definitely kept AI in check. Are you insane?
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 20, 2005 16:48:00 GMT -5
[/b]. Well the president of the Mike Sweetney fan club has spoken. To say that Mike was the best post-player in g'town with the best hands in school history, better than Zo or Ewing, is incredulous. Like I said before, you can talk about stats all you want, but Zo led[/b] his team, his senior year, with the likes of Irvin church, John Jacques, Lamont Morgan, Kevin Millen, and Brian Kelley to a share of the Big East title and NCAA tournament berth. Sweetney had better talent than that around him during his final two years at G'town, all he could do is help them to two NIT-worthy seasons. Come on. Quit driking the Sweetney Kool-Aid, and get real. You talk stats all day to the cows come home, but Sweetney was not a Leader. Great stat-stuffer, but not a leader.[/quote] 1)Zo is my favorite Gtown player as has been pointed out forever on these boards. 2)I never wrote Sweetney was the best post player (which I take to mean the best overall player in the paint). I wrote that he had the best post moves. If you thought Zo had a lot of post moves you weren't paying attention. The guy got his twenty points a game in college and the pros based upon determination and will and strength. And like Sweetney he would go to the FT line a lot. But actual post moves? Zo didn't have many of them. If he couldn't go over his left shoulder for a power slam or layup he was not likley to make a bucket in a half court offense. This weakness in Alonzo's game was discussed repeatedly when he was participating in the NBA playoffs. By the way Zo could never figure out how to attack a zone and make the best pass out of the double team. Sweetney’s basketball acumen was simply better. Not his physical tools, his understanding of the game. 3)In Zo's final season the Big East was a water down wasteland with not much talent. The freakin' Atlantic 10 was gaining. It was easier for Zo's team (and yes he played with a bunch of stiffs) to win the BE and make the NCAA tourney. During Sweet’s last two seasons of the BE the league was full of a talent and one conference team ended up winning the national championship his last season (Syracuse) while another won the whole thing the following season after Sweets left Gtown (UConn) with most of the same key players that were on the Huskies team when sweets was still around. During Zo’s senor season only one BE team made it to the Sweet Sixteen and that was Seton Hall. And the Pirates didn’t go any further than that. During that period people started calling the BE out as an overrated conference and the balance of power started tilting heavily towards the ACC and Big Ten again. Conferences are judged by how they fare in the post season. If we are rightfully going to call the BE the best the past two seasons because of the national titles we also have to be honest that the conference was not all that good during the ’91-’92 season. 4)Gtown also made the tourney during Zo’s last two seasons in part because the Hoyas were still well respected back then. All of their success leading up to ’91 and ’92 earned them the benefit of the doubt and the name Georgetown still meant something to college basketball and the networks who wanted ratings. Plus RPI and strength of schedule wasn’t nearly as important back then. If they were Zo’s senior team may have had to win the BE tourney to be assured of getting invited to the NCAA tournament. 5)JT coached Zo’s teams. Esherick coached Sweetney’s. Need I say more? So now that I made my point again let’s get off the Alonzo thing because Alonzo is my hero (even though I can still point out the holes in his game). Can you please go back to convincing me that Shelton and one-note Graham were superior players? After all everyone knows how much a leader Graham was.
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GUHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by GUHoya07 on Jan 20, 2005 16:49:43 GMT -5
Ok, the_way, you've gone too far now. Its almost like you are bashing Sweetney now, its one thing to not think he was the best post player in GU History and an entirely different thing to start insulting him and treating him like garbage, you have now crossed the line!!!
Also, we aren't talking about the NBA right now so your talk about Kurt Thomas and Sweets not starting is irrelevant. A lot of great players dont start immediately when they get in the league, it takes a litttle bit of time for some players to adjust to the level of play. But that doesnt matter anyway because we are discussing his college career. By the way, I believe Kurt Thomas led the country in scoring when he was at TCU.
"So all hail Mike Sweetney, the "greatest post-move, understander of the game" in G'town history. Wow, you guys are unbelievable."
YOU ARE UNBELIEVABLE!!!
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Jan 20, 2005 16:52:59 GMT -5
Ok, the_way, you've gone too far now. Its almost like you are bashing Sweetney now, its one thing to not think he was the best post player in GU History and an entirely different thing to start insulting him and treating him like garbage, you have now crossed the line!!! Also, we aren't talking about the NBA right now so your talk about Kurt Thomas and Sweets not starting is irrelevant. A lot of great players dont start immediately when they get in the league, it takes a litttle bit of time for some players to adjust to the level of play. But that doesnt matter anyway because we are discussing his college career. By the way, I believe Kurt Thomas led the country in scoring when he was at TCU. "So all hail Mike Sweetney, the "greatest post-move, understander of the game" in G'town history. Wow, you guys are unbelievable." YOU ARE UNBELIEVABLE!!! I thought Sweetney was a great player in his stay here at Georgetwon. But he was not the player Zo or Ewing or Mutumbo was. Sweetney always posted great stats, but he just didn't exert the leadership qualities someone of his caliber should have. Is that wrong for me saying that!? I don't think so. That to me is what makes a great player great.
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Post by michiganhoya on Jan 20, 2005 16:55:27 GMT -5
the_way is right, I'm going to revise my top players:
Patrick Ewing Reggie Williams Joey Brown Ya Ya Dia Daymond Jackson Henry Hyde and Paul Tagliabue
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 20, 2005 16:55:55 GMT -5
Yeah, I guess since Sweetney was so great, thats why he is starting over Kurt Thomas in New York right? If you ever visit a Knick board you will find that one of the key reasons Knick fans want Wilkens fired is because of the minutes he gives Thomas over Sweetney. Sweetney's production warrants much more time. Besides its no crime for Sweets not to start immediately, especially when a seasoned veteran (who is afvored by the coach) is ahead of him. That has happened to many good players. But if you want to use Sweets lack of minutes in the NBA to support your argument then can you tell me what the Great Graham ever did at the NBA level? Or Shelton for that matter? They were much, much more better right? But we don't take it personally when someone has a different point of view. That's what you're doing when we disagree with your assertion. Make your argument and cut back the hyperbole.
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GUHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by GUHoya07 on Jan 20, 2005 16:56:37 GMT -5
There's nothing wrong with that at all and I also wouldnt argue that he was better than Ewing or Zo, no way!
However, I dont think its unfair to say that he had the best post moves and hands and stuff like that. No one said he was the best overall player in GU History, I dont think anyone would dare say that.
I would just appreciate it if you didnt start going at Sweetney the way you did. Listen to people's arguments and then respond to them but dont bash one of Georgetown's great players.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 20, 2005 16:57:02 GMT -5
Actually, if you were in "the know", Don Reid was not soft-spoken. He didn't say much, but he didn't have to say much, if you know what I mean. JT2 assigned Don Reid as Allen Iverson's roomate to make sure Allen was kept in check and knew what time it was. Don Reid had fire,and he had fight. Something Sweetney lacked. Mike Sweetney had no fight, no fire? And the_way is back with his ludicrous statements.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Jan 20, 2005 16:58:21 GMT -5
1)Zo is my favorite Gtown player as has been pointed out forever on these boards. 2)I never wrote Sweetney was the best post player (which I take to mean the best overall player in the paint). I wrote that he had the best post moves. If you thought Zo had a lot of post moves you weren't paying attention. The guy got his twenty points a game in college and the pros based upon determination and will and strength. And like Sweetney he would go to the FT line a lot. But actual post moves? Zo didn't have many of them. If he couldn't go over his left shoulder for a power slam or layup he was not likley to make a bucket in a half court offense. This weakness in Alonzo's game was discussed repeatedly when he was participating in the NBA playoffs. By the way Zo could never figure out how to attack a zone and make the best pass out of the double team. Sweetney’s basketball acumen was simply better. Not his physical tools, his understanding of the game. 3)In Zo's final season the Big East was a water down wasteland with not much talent. The freakin' Atlantic 10 was gaining. It was easier for Zo's team (and yes he played with a bunch of stiffs) to win the BE and make the NCAA tourney. During Sweet’s last two seasons of the BE the league was full of a talent and one conference team ended up winning the national championship his last season (Syracuse) while another won the whole thing the following season after Sweets left Gtown (UConn) with most of the same key players that were on the Huskies team when sweets was still around. During Zo’s senor season only one BE team made it to the Sweet Sixteen and that was Seton Hall. And the Pirates didn’t go any further than that. During that period people started calling the BE out as an overrated conference and the balance of power started tilting heavily towards the ACC and Big Ten again. Conferences are judged by how they fare in the post season. If we are rightfully going to call the BE the best the past two seasons because of the national titles we also have to be honest that the conference was not all that good during the ’91-’92 season. 4)Gtown also made the tourney during Zo’s last two seasons in part because the Hoyas were still well respected back then. All of their success leading up to ’91 and ’92 earned them the benefit of the doubt and the name Georgetown still meant something to college basketball and the networks who wanted ratings. Plus RPI and strength of schedule wasn’t nearly as important back then. If they were Zo’s senior team may have had to win the BE tourney to be assured of getting invited to the NCAA tournament. 5)JT coached Zo’s teams. Esherick coached Sweetney’s. Need I say more? So now that I made my point again let’s get off the Alonzo thing because Alonzo is my hero (even though I can still point out the holes in his game). Can you please go back to convincing me that Shelton and one-note Graham were superior players? After all everyone knows how much a leader Graham was. How about the shot alonzo made his rookie year, that put Charlotte into the second round in the NBA playoffs. That was a jump shot, I might add, that Zo could knock down on a consistent basis. Zo had game. Zo had skills. He was the best player coming out of high school. And the 2nd most dominant big man in the game next to Shaq. Zo is one my favorites too. But to say his game was limited, after I have watched countless games of his, is erroneous.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 20, 2005 17:01:22 GMT -5
the_way is right, I'm going to revise my top players: Patrick Ewing Reggie Williams Joey Brown Ya Ya Dia Daymond Jackson Henry Hyde and Paul Tagliabue You forgot Joseph Toumou.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2005 17:03:38 GMT -5
the_way is right, I'm going to revise my top players: Patrick Ewing Reggie Williams Joey Brown Ya Ya Dia Daymond Jackson Henry Hyde and Paul Tagliabue Now THAT's funny. Except for the Daymond Jackson part. Don't even joke about Daymond Jackson. Yikes....
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Post by michiganhoya on Jan 20, 2005 17:03:58 GMT -5
Yes, and Eric Michaud, but only after his stint in the French Foreign Legion.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 20, 2005 17:17:11 GMT -5
How about the shot alonzo made his rookie year, that put Charlotte into the second round in the NBA playoffs. That was a jump shot, I might add, that Zo could knock down on a consistent basis. Zo had game. Zo had skills. He was the best player coming out of high school. And the 2nd most dominant big man in the game next to Shaq. Zo is one my favorites too. But to say his game was limited, after I have watched countless games of his, is erroneous. Zo had a jumpshot (which he could make at two or thre angles on the court). But as soo as he started to play for Riley he rarely seemed to use it. I wished he had used it more. But we are talking about his post moves. From time-to-time Zo would pull out a dazzling display of footwork but for the most part he was highly predictable in the paint. And it took him forever to learn how to pass the rock out of a double team. The one thing he did get better at under Riley was finding the open teammate. Sweets, though, could do all of that stuff when he was in high school. He never had great height or tremendous athleticism to fall back on so he compensated by being the ebst at footwork and understanding the game. Plus he used the glass better than any other Hoya big men ever did. How do you think sweets was able to score so much and shoot such a high perecentage (even to this day in the NBA) with such limited physical tools and with constatnt tripple teams around him? He had great post moves, quick feet and outstanding hands. That's how. If he did not possess those qualities(as well as strength and a strong understanding of the game) he would have been no more effective than Othella Harrington. Speaking of Othella he was generally rated the best player in the '92 class (alongside Jason Kidd). Sweets was only top 40 of the 2000 class. But Sweets was clearly better. So that stuff about rankings out of high school means very little.
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by SirSaxa on Jan 20, 2005 17:25:18 GMT -5
Speaking of Othella he was generally rated the best player in the '92 class (alongside Jason Kidd). Sweets was only top 40 of the 2000 class. But Sweets was clearly better. So that stuff about rankings out of high school means very little. OR Jeff Green? Where was he ranked? Where would he be ranked now among College Freshmen?
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GUHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by GUHoya07 on Jan 20, 2005 17:26:43 GMT -5
OR Jeff Green? Where was he ranked? Where would he be ranked now among College Freshmen? I think Insiders snuck him in at 73rd in their final rankings, but that was it. Talk about underrated.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 21, 2005 9:05:57 GMT -5
Zo had a jumpshot (which he could make at two or thre angles on the court). But as soo as he started to play for Riley he rarely seemed to use it. I wished he had used it more. But we are talking about his post moves. From time-to-time Zo would pull out a dazzling display of footwork but for the most part he was highly predictable in the paint. And it took him forever to learn how to pass the rock out of a double team. The one thing he did get better at under Riley was finding the open teammate. Sweets, though, could do all of that stuff when he was in high school. He never had great height or tremendous athleticism to fall back on so he compensated by being the ebst at footwork and understanding the game. Plus he used the glass better than any other Hoya big men ever did. How do you think sweets was able to score so much and shoot such a high perecentage (even to this day in the NBA) with such limited physical tools and with constatnt tripple teams around him? He had great post moves, quick feet and outstanding hands. That's how. If he did not possess those qualities(as well as strength and a strong understanding of the game) he would have been no more effective than Othella Harrington. Speaking of Othella he was generally rated the best player in the '92 class (alongside Jason Kidd). Sweets was only top 40 of the 2000 class. But Sweets was clearly better. So that stuff about rankings out of high school means very little. I'm not talking about high school rankings, first of all. Alonzo was not overhyped, he was the best player coming out of high school. Its obvious you are a Mike Sweetney fan. Your take on Alonzo is not correct. I have watched all his games in College and the Pros. And to say he could not pass out of double team, having limited skill in the paint,and Mike Sweetney had better post moves is just downright insidous. Mike Sweetney was a great player, no doubt. He wasn't on the caliber of Zo in college. Mike was like a gentle giant, great warrior in the paint. But to say he was on the level of Zo in high school and college shows your blind loyalty to your favorite player.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 21, 2005 11:31:45 GMT -5
So all this talk of Mike Sweetney and his place in history...so I decided to line up the stats and make a comparison between Mike Sweetney, Don Reid, Alonzo Mourning, Othella Harrington, hell I'll even through Patrick Ewing in there too, just for kicks. I also included a 4-year projection/estimation of where Mike's stats would have ended up if he had stayed all 4-years. I did this by merely tacking on a second "junior" campaign, which is generous in some senses because that was one of the best season's ever by a Hoya, but also conservative because it assumes he would not have improved at all as a senior -- which is highly unusual in Hoya history. Anyways, onto the stats.
*Note M4YP stands for the projection and the numbers in () denote where each stat currently ranks all-time or, in the case of the M4YP, where it would rank.
Points: Pat: 2184 (2) Alonzo: 2001 (4) Othella: 1839 (5) Mike: 1750 (7) Don: 555 M4YP: 2526 (1)
PPG: Mike: 18.2 (2) Alonzo: 16.7 (7) Pat: 15.3 (18) Othella: 13.9 (27) Don: 4.5 M4YP: 19.4 (2)
Rebounds: Pat: 1316 (1) Alonzo: 1032 (3) Othella: 983 (4) Mike: 887 (5) Don: 487 (33) M4YP: 1239 (2)
RPG: Pat: 9.3 (6) Mike: 9.2 (8) Alonzo: 8.6 (11) Othella: 7.4 (16) Don: 4.0 (42) M4YP: 9.5 (5)
Blocks: Pat: 493 (1) Alonzo: 453 (2) Othella: 201 (5) Mike: 180 (6) Don: 122 (8) M4YP: 289 (4)
BPG: Alonzo: 3.8 (1) Pat: 3.5 Mike: 1.9 Othella: 1.5 Don: 1.0 M4YP: 2.2
Assists: Mike: 174 Pat: 167 Alonzo: 138 Othella: 137 Don: 64 M4YP: 240 (20)
APG: Mike: 1.8 Pat: 1.2 Alonzo: 1.2 Othella: 1.1 Don: .53 M4YP: 1.9
Steals: Pat: 167 (14) Othella: 106 Mike: 101 Alonzo: 59 Don: 89 M4YP: 151 (15)
SPG: Mike: 1.1 Pat: .92 Othella: .81 Don: .73 Alonzo: 0.49 M4YP: 1.2
Career Shooting %: Pat: 62.1% Alonzo: 56.6% Don: 57.9% Othella: 56.1% Mike: 54.3% M4YP: 54.4%
Career FT %: Alonzo: 75.4% Othella: 73.2% Mike: 72.7% Pat: 63.5% Don: 56.2% M4YP: 73.1%
% of All Hoya Points Scored While a Hoya: Mike: 23.05% Pat: 20.89% Alonzo: 20.59% Othella: 18.44% Don: 6.01%
% of All Hoya Rebounds While a Hoya: Pat: 24.37% Mike: 21.86% Alonzo: 19.81% Othella: 18.54% Don: 9.83%
I think it's clear, that as a Hoya, Mike statistically was a monster. In three years, he compiled stats that put him on the same playing field as those put up by Alonzo & Othella in four complete seasons -- which all included post-season play! If you consider, what Mike's stats would have been had he stayed a fourth year, there is no question, only Ewing would have compared. Of course, Ewing was better overall and had much more impact on the program in general, however you can not ignore that Mike contributed an astounding 23.05% of all scoring while he was a Hoya and 21.86% of all rebounding! That is out of control.
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Post by FreeNachos on Jan 21, 2005 11:49:46 GMT -5
As of right now, Bowman = Braswell was the best comparison I saw...but there's no way I read all 7 pages .
The Daymond Jackson career stretchs way beyond basketball...it's created nicknames and brought people together.
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TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 21, 2005 12:56:02 GMT -5
Thanks Cambridge-its nice to get some stats as opposed to just having a bunch of biased observations.
Then again, I think it's important to remember that Sweetney had a huge impact on the program-b/c he left early, the Hoyas were putrid last year (instead of just mediocre), and he got fired, thereby leading to the JT3 era-that's a positive impact if I saw one.
Secondly, I mentioned this earlier, but I didn't see a response- I heard that one of the big reasons JTII left was b/c of AI ushering in the era of leaving early in GTown BBall-it was the beginning of the end, if you will. Now, is that right, or just some unfounded rumour?
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