Bowman's Place in History

[SirSaxa]

easyed said:

I think almost all who are posting seem to believe that basketball at Georgetown started with the arrival of Sleepy Floyd as all of their top five (SirSaxa, DFW, for instance) are Floyd and later. I think that does great injustice to those who came before them and there were many really good players in prior years.

Ed, I did have Sleepy and four others who followed in my top five. But I also mentioned quite a few players who came earlier. But why should it be surprising the very best are from that point forward? JT was building one of the most successful college programs ever and he was the first Black coach to win a National title. Those two factors gave him a huge edge in recruiting and as a result he was constantly bringing in better guys.

On the guard side, JT went from Jonathan Smith to Derrick Jackson to Johnny Duren to Sleepy Floyd. All four of those guys were better than anyone who came before. Admittedly, I have only seen this team play since 1970. But how likely is it that our mediocre performance before that -- except really far back -- was done by guys who would be considered superstars by today's standards?

Here's another issue for the younger guys to think about. The NCAA tournament did not always have 64 teams. I am guessing that in 1970, it was about 16 teams. Maybe 24. There were far fewer opportunites for post season play.

That's also why the NIT was much more influential -- they could choose from much higher ranked teams than today, when the top 64 teams are already taken by the NCAA Tourney. Actually, in the '40s and '50s, the NIT was considered the more prestigious tournament.

So the Hoyas appearance in the 1970 NIT, after years of being absent from any post season play, was huge! The entire tournament took place at MSG - -there were no preliminary rounds around the country. We ended up at MSG playing against an absolute basketball legend -- Pistol Pete Maravich of LSU. A guy who averaged over 40 ppg for his career. And, he was also a magician with the basketball. Maravich was nothing short of astonishing with the ball. Who to compare him to in recent years? The "astonishment" factor was probably up there -- if not beyond -- Iverson.

details of that game are probably available on our websites, but we had a very good team that year and snuck into the NIT. Maybe we won 19 games that season, or 17 - 18. We had guys like Charlie Adrion, Mike Laughna and Artie White. We designed a great Defense for Maravich and held him to 19 points, his SECOND lowest total in his college career (He was a senior at that time). But they had this forward who killed us, went for about 35. We lost by 1 or 2 points. Score was in the 60s.

Were those guys great Hoyas? Absolutely. Could I put them in a class with Sleepy, Reggie, Sweetney, Zo, Iverson and Patrick? In their dreams the older guys would still not measure up to the level of superstardom achieved by the later group.

As for comparing today's players -- or recent players -- with earlier teams, I can make comparisons back to 1970. Of course, that would just be my opinion. We know from the statistical history there were some great players before 1970. but as an example, Paul Tagliabue -- current commissioner of the NFL -- was a terrific Hoya. I believe he was the leading career rebounder when he graduated. You guys have all seen him on TV announcing the NFL's top draft picks and so on.

if it were possible to have a GU alum pick up game and everyone was magically 20 years old again, where do you think Tagliabue would have been selected among a group of kids that includes:
Ewing
Zo
Mutombo
Sweetney
Graham
Harrington
Williams, R
Willams, J
Shelton
Reid
Boumtje Boumtje
Wilson, M
Turner
Martin
Bowman
Green


That is the reason that pre-1970 and pre-Thompson ('72/'73) and pre-Floyd players are not mentioned in the same category as the later guys.

More important to me, is how the current and future Hoyas will compare to the post-Sleepy group. JT3 has made it fun to think about those possibilities again!
.

One last thing -- Shelton vs. Sweetney for all time best PF?
That is a very tough question.
Two different styles of play entirely.
Both excellent.
I'd be interested in some opinions on that one.

[the_way]

Shelton hands down. Michael Graham was better than Sweetney. Don Reid was leader and brought more intangibles. I think guys on this board like Sweetney because of his numbers and stuff, and thats understandable. Sweetney couldn't hold a candle to Michael Graham. Graham was so good, the rumor was that he was only brought in for one year, so we would definitely win the title. Reggie Williams said, had Graham had stayed at GU, they would have won 2 more titles at GU. Sweetney had great numbers, but he wasn't a leader. He lacked leadership qualities and the intangibles that made his team better. Too quiet and too passive of a personality.

[Cambridge]

I'm currently working on a rudimentary (read really basic) statistical method for comparison. So far it's worked surprisingly well for how simple it is. I will post a really long list, ranking players all time...based on statistics alone...very shortly.

[Cambridge]

Of course this is slightly handicapped by the lack of some stats before a certain era, the arrival of the three pointer, the change in foul-shooting and so forth, but it's still rather interesting.

[the_way]

Lot of time on your hands , eh?

[EasyEd]

For one, John Mahnken, 1943 I think, was a first team All American as a freshman. I think he rates up with any of the later era.

[GUHoya07]

John Mahnken
ALL-AMERICAN
MEMBER OF GEORGETOWN ATHLETIC HALL OF FAME
Left school for military service
Home Town/High School: W. New York, NJ/Memorial HS
Lettered: 1943
Jersey Number: 3
Position: Center
Height: 6-9

Year............G.......PTS......... AVG.
1942-43....27........415.........15.4
Totals........27........415.........15.4


Notable: First Georgetown player to receive 1st team All-America selection, 1943. Only Georgetown freshman ever selected All-American.

[GUHoya07]

Mahnken sounds extremely impressive! He sounds like a player who could have been extremely dominant in his day. The first Georgetown player selected 1st team All-America and the only freshman ever selected All-American at Georgetown!!! 6'9" in 1943 as well.

[Cambridge]

Some teasers of other pre-Thompson studs who fare really well statistically:
Charlie Adrion (67-70)
Mike Laughna (69-70)
Joe Missett (54-57)
Jim Barry (62-66)
Warren Buehler (53-57)
Bob Sharpenter (59-62)

[MCIGuy]

the_way said:

Shelton hands down. Michael Graham was better than Sweetney. Don Reid was leader and brought more intangibles. I think guys on this board like Sweetney because of his numbers and stuff, and thats understandable. Sweetney couldn't hold a candle to Michael Graham. Graham was so good, the rumor was that he was only brought in for one year, so we would definitely win the title. Reggie Williams said, had Graham had stayed at GU, they would have won 2 more titles at GU. Sweetney had great numbers, but he wasn't a leader. He lacked leadership qualities and the intangibles that made his team better. Too quiet and too passive of a personality.

That's nuts. You are talking about a guy whom if he had stayed a 4th season would have been #1 in scoring and possibly rebounding in the history of GU hoops. And in the top four all time in shot blocks. You are talking about a guy who had easily the best post moves and understanding of a game than any Hoya big man. More? His scoring average is second of all time of any Hoya player (with only AI being greater). He played in one of the most talented eras of the Big East and made two First Team All Big East appearances in three years. He had the greatest hands ever for a Hoya, even better than Iverson’s. His consistency was another great strength. He showed up for virtually every games and delivered the numbers. Can you ever recall Sweetney being outplayed like Zo was by Laettner in ’89 when GU play Duke or like how Othella got exposed by Joe Smith and the big frontline of Arkansas. There is no greater example of Sweetney’s greatness then how he played against those Carmello Anthony Syracuse teams. All that talent on the Cuse team and I three games Sweetney carried the Hoyas with hardly a soul to help him out. He scored over 90 points in the three games he played against the national champions that season and dominated the boards. In the overtime loss to Syracuse at the MCI Arena that season he led everyone (Gtown and Syracuse players) in points, rebounds, blocks and assists. Could Graham or Shelton ever do that? Doubt it. Reggie Williams can say all he wants about what Michael Graham WOULD HAVE BEEN but the fact is none of us know. When I look at the old games with Graham thanks to the magic of Classic Sports all I see is a dunker who had an intimidating presence. But his skills appeared limited. Besides...if he had won twommore championships it was because he would ahve played one more year with Ewing and three more with Reggie Williams making him at best the third best player on the team. I don't recall sweets playing with a Ewing or a Reggie. His wing man most times was Gerald Riley. But put Sweetney inthe PF slot alongside Zo and Mourning would have made a Final Four.

And is there any doubt who had the best basketball IQ and technique of all the Hoya power forwards? No. Sweets wins hands down. Is there any doubt who could pass better? Hell no. Before Sweetney Hoya big men were know to be horrible passers (in both college and the pros).



Sweetney was never fiery like Zo (my favorite player of all time) but that also meant that, ala Tim Duncan, he kept his cool and didn’t let bad calls take him out of the game. He never let his emotions get the best of him. He took the pounding better than anyone. Zo would frown and fuss when he got hit. Othella would always let out a futile yell when an opponent put a body on him and leapt over him for a rebound.

Sweets was a special talent. I won’t fault him for not being on successful teams considering how the program was being ran when he was here. Despite those bad teams the NBA scouts, in a LOADED draft, were so impressed with Sweetney that he ended up being chosen 9th in the lottery. Only Ewing, AI, Zo, Reggie and Deke were chosen higher. And I’m sure Sweets will have a better career in the pros than Reggie. If Sean May was anywhere near as good as Sweetney UNC would not lose a game. Shelton and especially Graham are not/ were not on his level. More athletic sure. But not as good. Those that think being more athletic means being a better basketball player are mistaken. Bird and Magic weren’t athletic but they were as good as anyone. Sweets isn’t in their class of course but he does play an “old school” game that would make those guys proud.

The three years with Sweets were, outside of the Zo-Deke final two years, the most squandered seasons in modern GU history.

[SFHoya99]

Cambridge, aside from hoyabasketball.com, which has a nice Top 40 players I posted earlier (some of which, like Fred Fees, won't do so well statistically), here's a list of Georgetown players' NBA stats:

www.basketball-reference.com/colleges/georgetown.html

[EasyEd]

Looking at the Georgetown Basketball History Project web site, I see a few errors. Who can I contact to make that known? Thanks.

[the_way]

MCIGuy said:

That's nuts. You are talking about a guy whom if he had stayed a 4th season would have been #1 in scoring and possibly rebounding in the history of GU hoops. And in the top four all time in shot blocks. You are talking about a guy who had easily the best post moves and understanding of a game than any Hoya big man. More? His scoring average is second of all time of any Hoya player (with only AI being greater). He played in one of the most talented eras of the Big East and made two First Team All Big East appearances in three years. He had the greatest hands ever for a Hoya, even better than Iverson’s. His consistency was another great strength. He showed up for virtually every games and delivered the numbers. Can you ever recall Sweetney being outplayed like Zo was by Laettner in ’89 when GU play Duke or like how Othella got exposed by Joe Smith and the big frontline of Arkansas. There is no greater example of Sweetney’s greatness then how he played against those Carmello Anthony Syracuse teams. All that talent on the Cuse team and I three games Sweetney carried the Hoyas with hardly a soul to help him out. He scored over 90 points in the three games he played against the national champions that season and dominated the boards. In the overtime loss to Syracuse at the MCI Arena that season he led everyone (Gtown and Syracuse players) in points, rebounds, blocks and assists. Could Graham or Shelton ever do that? Doubt it. Reggie Williams can say all he wants about what Michael Graham WOULD HAVE BEEN but the fact is none of us know. When I look at the old games with Graham thanks to the magic of Classic Sports all I see is a dunker who had an intimidating presence. But his skills appeared limited. Besides...if he had won twommore championships it was because he would ahve played one more year with Ewing and three more with Reggie Williams making him at best the third best player on the team. I don't recall sweets playing with a Ewing or a Reggie. His wing man most times was Gerald Riley. But put Sweetney inthe PF slot alongside Zo and Mourning would have made a Final Four.

And is there any doubt who had the best basketball IQ and technique of all the Hoya power forwards? No. Sweets wins hands down. Is there any doubt who could pass better? Hell no. Before Sweetney Hoya big men were know to be horrible passers (in both college and the pros).



Sweetney was never fiery like Zo (my favorite player of all time) but that also meant that, ala Tim Duncan, he kept his cool and didn’t let bad calls take him out of the game. He never let his emotions get the best of him. He took the pounding better than anyone. Zo would frown and fuss when he got hit. Othella would always let out a futile yell when an opponent put a body on him and leapt over him for a rebound.

Sweets was a special talent. I won’t fault him for not being on successful teams considering how the program was being ran when he was here. Despite those bad teams the NBA scouts, in a LOADED draft, were so impressed with Sweetney that he ended up being chosen 9th in the lottery. Only Ewing, AI, Zo, Reggie and Deke were chosen higher. And I’m sure Sweets will have a better career in the pros than Reggie. If Sean May was anywhere near as good as Sweetney UNC would not lose a game. Shelton and especially Graham are not/ were not on his level. More athletic sure. But not as good. Those that think being more athletic means being a better basketball player are mistaken. Bird and Magic weren’t athletic but they were as good as anyone. Sweets isn’t in their class of course but he does play an “old school” game that would make those guys proud.

The three years with Sweets were, outside of the Zo-Deke final two years, the most squandered seasons in modern GU history.

Whoa![/b]. Well the president of the Mike Sweetney fan club has spoken. To say that Mike was the best post-player in g'town with the best hands in school history, better than Zo or Ewing, is incredulous. Zo and Ewing actually played against a lot more future NBA proven talents (at their respective positions) than did your hero, Mike Sweetney ever did. Michael Graham was[/b] a factor in winning are sole National Championships. I'm talking about the intangibles, not just stats. Sweetney is No Tim Duncan. And Tim Duncan is agressive as Zo,but he channels his agression. Like I said before, you can talk about stats all you want, but Zo led[/b] his team, his senior year, with the likes of Irvin church, John Jacques, Lamont Morgan, Kevin Millen, and Brian Kelley to a share of the Big East title and NCAA tournament berth. Sweeteny doesn't have that fire in the belly, that SOB that JT2 always liked in his players. Sweetney had better talent than that around him during his final two years at G'town, all he could do is help them to two NIT-worthy seasons. Come on. Quit drinking the Sweetney Kool-Aid, and get real. You can talk stats all day to the cows come home, but Sweetney was not a Leader. Great stat-stuffer, but not a leader.

[SFHoya99]

Much less ridiculous than implying Don Reid was a better player than Sweetney.

I believe MCI was using post player to refer to offense.

Don Reid was a leader? That's fine. How did his leadership help the team? If he had such an effect, then how come a team with five future NBA players made it only to the Sweet Sixteen?

Leadership and chemistry are important. Evaluating a player's leadership or a team's chemistry is almost impossible. It's always done after the fact, and that makes it suspect.

[the_way]

SFHoya99 said:

Much less ridiculous than implying Don Reid was a better player than Sweetney.

I believe MCI was using post player to refer to offense.

I didn't say Don Reid was a better player. I said he was a leader, and Sweetney wasn't. Read the quote again. Your Welcome.

[SirSaxa]

the_way said:

To say that Mike was the best post-player in g'town with the best hands in school history, better than Zo or Ewing, is incredulous..

That is NOT what he said.
What he DID say was the following:
"You are talking about a guy who had easily the best post moves and understanding of a game than any Hoya big man. "

Frankly, that is 100% correct.
He did have the best post moves -- no question, and the arguably the best understanding of the game. And his hands were a lot better than Ewing or Zo.

And to judge Zo and how well his team played with the talent he had versus Sweetney... you are leaving out one HUGE factor.

Zo had a Hall of Fame coach.
Sweetney had Esh.

[SFHoya99]

the_way said:

I didn't say Don Reid was a better player. I said he was a leader, and Sweetney wasn't. Read the quote again. Your Welcome.

Oh, yes, you weren't trying to imply that at all...

[the_way]

SirSaxa said:

That is NOT what he said.
What he DID say was the following:
"You are talking about a guy who had easily the best post moves and understanding of a game than any Hoya big man. "

Frankly, that is 100% correct.
He did have the best post moves -- no question, and the arguably the best understanding of the game. And his hands were a lot better than Ewing or Zo.

And to judge Zo and how well his team played with the talent he had versus Sweetney... you are leaving out one HUGE factor.

Zo had a Hall of Fame coach.
Sweetney had Esh.

Yeah, I guess since Sweetney was so great, thats why he is starting over Kurt Thomas in New York right? If he was so much better than Ewing or Zo in post moves, I guess they didn't have big enough rear ends to bump 6 foot 7 inches guys, so they could make a layup or dunk. You know Ewing and Zo did play against guys who are taller than 6 foot 7 or 6 foot 9 for that matter and who also played in the NBA. So all hail Mike Sweetney, the "greatest post-move, understander of the game" in G'town history. Wow, you guys are unbelievable.

[michiganhoya]

How as Don Reid a "leader"? As a student and then season ticket holder during the Reid era, I'm kind of at a loss to remember his leadership qualities. I remember that he stunk his first two years and then became the king of hustle his junior and senior year. The highlight of his career, if I recall correctly, was a tip in against Weber State. He was very soft spoken and did not seem to demonstrate any leadership ability, sort of like Mr. Sweetney. The only difference being a lot more talent.

[the_way]

michiganhoya said:

How as Don Reid a "leader"? As a student and then season ticket holder during the Reid era, I'm kind of at a loss to remember his leadership qualities. I remember that he stunk his first two years and then became the king of hustle his junior and senior year. The highlight of his career, if I recall correctly, was a tip in against Weber State. He was very soft spoken and did not seem to demonstrate any leadership ability, sort of like Mr. Sweetney. The only difference being a lot more talent.

Actually, if you were in "the know", Don Reid was not soft-spoken. He didn't say much, but he didn't have to say much, if you know what I mean. JT2 assigned Don Reid as Allen Iverson's roomate to make sure Allen was kept in check and knew what time it was. Don Reid had fire,and he had fight. Something Sweetney lacked.