TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 19, 2005 11:20:59 GMT -5
As SFHoya noted in the 1000 points thread, if Bowman keeps up his current pace, he'll be the only Hoya to finish in the top 20 in points, rebounds, blocks, assists and steals. He's also going to join Ewing and Reggie Williams as the only players w/ 1000 points, 500 rebounds and 125 steals. So here's a hypothetical question for the board (one I'm not really qualified to answer, seeing as how I'm relatively new to Hoya bball)-assuming that Bowman does finish his career as the only Hoya in the top 20 of all those categories, where does Bowman rank among Hoya greats? Would you say he was top 10? Top 20? Or would people say that his stats are just inflated due to the fact that he was here during some lean years and he had to shoulder a larger load when on a good team he'd be the 3rd or 4th best player?
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 19, 2005 11:27:10 GMT -5
As a young Hoya, I'd place him on the list of 10...because he shouldn't be handicapped for shouldering a burden during lean years, he should be celebrated, especially as he is turning this team around and showing up for BIG games.
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Jan 19, 2005 11:28:51 GMT -5
At this point, I think it may be too early to judge. You could definitely say that the last two years, he had stats that filled up the sheet on otherwise "not good" teams. But the story of Brandon I think will really be told over the next season and a half. If he can continue to mature as a player, and step up and show leadership for this young group of Hoyas, he could end up as a very important figure in the rebirth of this program.
Besides, this year, he's on a better team than the previous two years, by many early accounts, and his stats haven't gone down. I think his unique mix of talents will place him in an interesting spot in Hoya history, but again, context is everything, and that context is still emerging.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 19, 2005 11:30:53 GMT -5
He's got that Kevin Braswell place in history, I think. That's not bad, but...heck, I don't know if he ends up like Bras, who had a Sweet Sixteen appearance.
It's pretty hard to compare players over time. Brandon is a four year starter -- would he have been a four year starter had he come in in the mid-1980s?
Even statistically, I don't think he quite measures up -- his turnovers have to be Top 20 as well, and I doubt his shooting % is anywhere near Top 20.
That all said, he's obviously below the Shelton / Sleepy / Patrick / Reggie / Alonzo / Allen / Mike sort of pantheon.
But how about Bras? Othella (who was definitely misused)? Wingate? Is that going too far?
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 19, 2005 11:34:39 GMT -5
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SoCalHoya
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Post by SoCalHoya on Jan 19, 2005 11:39:06 GMT -5
All I know is that Bowman is maturing quickly right before our eyes...and I love it. Sure, he's going to have an off game here and there, but he is really producing and most of all, he is really showing that he will not give up (or let the team give up). What a great example to our young team! He has adjusted very well to the Princetown offense and is helping us out in more ways than just scoring. If (knock on wood!) the boys keep performing with this level of intensity throughout the season, I think Bowman deserves a lot of the credit.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 19, 2005 11:51:48 GMT -5
So would you say he's a level 3 (no doubt greatness) or only a level 2? Personally, I'd think right now he's on track to be a level 3 on the pyramid w/ a shot at a level 4 (someone who needs to be included in talks of all time greats) , if he can lead the Hoyas to some postseason glory and be one of the key players in the resurrection of the Hoyas (arguably the 2nd most important behind JT3 if we go to the NCAA in BB's last 2 years) .
And I definately agree that a lot is left to be played out, but there's a lot of time left b/w today and the ND game and you can only complain about ESPN, guess about the Hoyas NCAA chances and analyze the upcoming game so much-thought it'd be interesting to speculate (and hopefully get a better grasp on Hoya History in the process). Back to the topic, how much does postseason play effect a players greatness? Is Sweets docked a couple of "greatness points" b/c he only made the tourney as a freshman (when he was the 2nd or 3rd best player)? Does it matter that AI left after 2 years and Sweets after 3 while BB is going to stay 4 (knock on wood)?
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 19, 2005 11:58:06 GMT -5
That pyramid really does give you a structure to consider the players in...I have to reflect on the questions of Sweetney, Bowman & co.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 19, 2005 12:07:46 GMT -5
I think postseason affects it greatly, but I have a hard time docking Sweets or Bowman (for his first two years) for it.
Neither had a lot of talent around them, and they had lackluster coaching.
The difference in the two, to me, is that Sweets pulled us to two NIT invites, an NIT title game, and basically was just needed to win two of many heartbreaking games, and we would've been dancing all three years he was here.
Sweets was the leader on those two teams.
Brandon has been a nice freshman on an NIT team and the best player on an awful team. He's now one of the best players (but not clearly the best like Sweets) on a team that may go NCAAs. His path isn't set, but the resume, from a winning standpoint, isn't there. Yet.
In Bill Simmons' Pyramid, Level One or Level Two fits for now:
Level One: designated for marginal guys who were considered "Borderline Hall of Famers," either because of the Rice Factor (great career, not long enough) or the Sutton Factor (very good for a long time, rarely great) ... anyone voted in simply because they reached a benchmark (400 homers, 300 wins, etc.) would be thrown in here.
Brandon seems like he qualifies for that -- his numbers are making the argument right now.
Level Two:
reserved for guys who were definitely Hall of Famers, but didn't quite possess a Level 3 résumé for one or more of the following reasons:
Their team never won a World Series.
Something was missing from their career totals.
They never enjoyed an outrageously good single season.
Not sure if Brandon is there yet. Sure-fire HOF?
Level Three: Reserved for the "No-Doubt-About-It" Hall of Famers ... these guys were undoubtedly the best at their position for years and years, with all the requisite "résumé" stats to match ... unfortunately, there's a distinct, crucial difference between Level 3 and Level 4 (explanation coming).
Definitely not yet.
Right now I say Level One, and could approach Level Two, if he can continue this pace and the team keeps winning.
But Level Two designees are quite clear -- he needs to have that outrageously good season and make it deep in the NCAAs to make Level Three.
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nychoya3
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Post by nychoya3 on Jan 19, 2005 12:13:21 GMT -5
To borrow another Simmons-ism, is Brandon making "the leap" as we speak? Since stinking up the joint in his first two games in Hawaii, he has been absolutely awesome. If his threes were falling, he would be averaging in the low 20's in scoring, but he has been efficient and effective.
Brandon's talent is obvious. So is his passion - even on last year's team he always played hard, if not always smart. Level four is reserved for Ewing and maybe no one else. Pat deserves his own level, and he shouldn't have to share it with AI or Zo or Sleepy or Reggie. All amazing players who would be the best ever at many schools. But Pat is a step above, based on what he did for this team.
I think Brandon is on track to be a top-20 player (I'm only talking the past 25 years or so, since I know even less of the earlier, pre-JT years). The top-10 is crowded, but he could sneak in, perhaps reaching a Sweetney-ish position. Braswell is a good comp now, but if we keep winning and next year is better than this one, than he could surpass that level.
Someday, Roy Hibbert will occupy his own tier, called Tier Roy, which will float several miles above Tier 4, where Roy will be attended to by comely lasses and the finest libations. I'm sorry, but seeing Brandon's shot for the 200th time this morning has driven me completely insane. So damn close!
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 19, 2005 12:18:20 GMT -5
So, IMO, for reference:
Level Five example: Ewing Level Four example: Sweetney Level Three example: Wingate Level Two example: Jerome Williams Level One example: Braswell
I'm pretty hesitant about Williams, but that's how I see it.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jan 19, 2005 12:21:24 GMT -5
What I wouldn't do to have a Jerome Williams on this team! We have gutty players right now, and he'd fit right in and give us another big.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 19, 2005 12:24:43 GMT -5
Someday, Roy Hibbert will occupy his own tier, called Tier Roy, which will float several miles above Tier 4, where Roy will be attended to by comely lasses and the finest libations. And, of course, Nodak will be the tier Roy musician, forever on call to serenade Roy with his trusty guitar.
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Post by Fan Of The Game on Jan 19, 2005 13:01:07 GMT -5
If we're just looking at Georgetown careers, I would dock Sweetney for not coming back his senior year. That should preclude players from becoming level 4 or 5.
Do I blame him for it? No. Was it the right decision for him? Yes. But in judging how important he was to Georgetown versus how important he could have been had he played four years, I've got to knock him down a bit.
We are not the kind of University that would retire Stevie Franchise's number.
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GUHoya07
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Post by GUHoya07 on Jan 19, 2005 13:44:29 GMT -5
I think Sweetney not coming back turned out best for everyone. If he had stayed there never would have been a coaching change last year and we would just be prolonging mediocrity.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 19, 2005 13:53:04 GMT -5
If we're just looking at Georgetown careers, I would dock Sweetney for not coming back his senior year. That should preclude players from becoming level 4 or 5. Do I blame him for it? No. Was it the right decision for him? Yes. But in judging how important he was to Georgetown versus how important he could have been had he played four years, I've got to knock him down a bit. We are not the kind of University that would retire Stevie Franchise's number. I see your point a bit. The reason I have Sweets a "Four" is this: Do you have to consider them in any "best of all-time" discussions?Yes. However, a player like Wingate would not even get a mention. Did they have transcendent games or memorable moments?Nothing quite like the other level four guys, but 35 and 20 versus ND qualifies. Did they hit 500 homers, get 3,000 hits or win 300 games?Sweetney's all over the Top 10 lists. But I will accept a "no" here as well, as he did not stay long enough to hit 2,000 pts, or 1,000 rebs (or 600 assists or 300 stls or blocks). Were they just dominant at times?Yes. Will you always remember watching them play, even when you're 80 years old and peeing on yourself?Yes. I suppose you can find another example, but Mike is Level Four for me. I seriously question whether many of the '80s greats would've stayed four; only Alonzo of the top tier talents gets credit by me. Then again, I'm a peak voter. I think I'd put Allen Iverson here as well. Question for you: Alonzo, Reggie, Sleepy. Level Four or Five?
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Jan 19, 2005 14:11:21 GMT -5
Depends how he finishes this year...and what he does next season...
As good as he is, he can be A LOT better...now that's scary...
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 19, 2005 14:26:17 GMT -5
Interesting topic. Here are a few thoughts, borrowing on the UNC hierarchy or "retired numbers", "retired jerseys" and "honored jerseys":
Tier 1: A player must be voted National Player of the Year during his tenure.
Members: Patrick Ewing.
Tier 2: A player must be a 1st or 2nd team All-American.
Members: Mahnken, Kraus, Duren, Shelton, Floyd, Williams, Mourning, Smith, Iverson.
Tier 3: A player must have received some All-American honor (ie, honorable mention).
Members: Hargaden, Buehler, Barry, Martin, M. Jackson, McDonald, Mutombo, Page, Sweetney
Tier 4: A great player for his era that did not receive A-A citation.
Members: Kostecka, Missett, J. Brown, Sullivan, Adrion, Laughna, M. Wilson, J. Smith, D. Jackson, Dutch, Wingate, Tillmon, Harrington, J. Williams, Braswell.
Tier 5: Solid players within their era.
Members: Many.
Comments?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 19, 2005 14:31:13 GMT -5
That's an interesting hierarchy. The key weakness I see is that you are letting a bunch of sportswriters dictate your levels.
Sweetney was jobbed, so he drops a level? Now I can see many reasons why Mike should be Level 3 and not the second highest, but getting jobbed by the sportswriters not one of them...
Vic Page over some of the guys in level 4? I love Vic, but I think that's too high.
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Jan 19, 2005 14:46:57 GMT -5
Charles Smith received 1989 Big East Player of the Year...
But he was 3rd team All-American...
Sherman Douglas was 1st team All American...
I could never understand the logic behind that...
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