GUHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by GUHoya07 on Jan 20, 2005 1:32:43 GMT -5
Anthony Perry Degree: AB 2001 Home Town/High School: Jersey City, NJ/St. Anthony's HS Lettered: 1999,00,01 Jersey Number: 5 Position: Guard Height: 6-3 Year..........G.......FG..........FT.......REB......AST.....STL......BLK......PTS.......AVG. 1997-98 Did Not Play 1998-99..31....145-429..82-130......147.......65.........58........5........433......14.0 1999-00..34....104-300..54-77........116........59.......57.......5.......297.......8.7 2000-01...33.....78-190...25-37.........77.......36.......46.......7.......220........6.7 Totals....98...327-919...161-244......340.....156.....161.......17......950.......9.7 Leading scorer, 1999. Parade All-America HS selection, 1997.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 20, 2005 1:48:50 GMT -5
I think some of the elders need to chime in. I know the history, but I wasn't a fan in the glory days. Tbird, maybe you're right you only need four basic levels with the Hoyas -- I think maybe you just delineated them wrong. I dunno -- you could combine some of the below (I, II, and III could be combined in some manner). But to get it started, how about this: Tier I: Borderline player. Lots of disagreement. A player that perhaps people didn't think was that great while playing (and some people thought was not very good at all), but once the career is over/looked at in retrospect, you start to feel differently. The place to put career players who were never stars but have the numbers to make the Hall. Possible examples: Kevin Braswell, Joey Brown, Brandon Bowman*, KB is the Hoyas' top assist man and top steals man of all time. Yet only one NCAA appearance and I think plenty of people on this board would not have favorable assessments of his game. Tier II: People can agree he was a Hall of Famer quite readily, if not for Time and/or Injury or post-season considerations. Examples: Victor Page, Jerome Williams Tier III: Sure-fire HOF with no time, injury, or post-season considerations, yet not a star Examples: David Wingate, Dikembe Mutombo Tier IV: Superstar acknowledged by outside world as a special player. Had at least one year where he was just dominant. As Simmons put, someone you will tell your kids about. Examples: Michael Sweetney, Jim Barry? Tier V: The Pantheon. Examples: Sleepy Floyd, Alonzo Mourning, Reggie Wiliams. And that's it. Tier VI: Changed the Program. Only: Patrick. So, using this or altering at need, place Allen Iverson somewhere.Oh and check out this page: www.hoyabasketball.com/features/bb-top40.htm
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 20, 2005 1:49:34 GMT -5
Thanks SF-I was kinda floundering there w/o some help from more knowledgeable sources. Personally, I think Sweetney and Iverson go in the same place. Iverson had 2 years, Sweetney 3. Iverson was dominant, so was Sweetney. They both had a major effect on the program-Sweetney's departure led to Esherick's firing, Iverson's departure led to JTII leaving (this is something I heard, so if I'm wrong, correct me and I'll get rid of it). The only thing that AI has that Sweets didn't is fame-I don't think that's enough to boost him up a tier.
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GUHoya07
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Post by GUHoya07 on Jan 20, 2005 1:51:56 GMT -5
Yeah, I like that set up a lot SF! I just dont know enough about Jim Barry to know whether or not he fits there.
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GUHoya07
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Post by GUHoya07 on Jan 20, 2005 1:53:12 GMT -5
I prefer SF's set up and do feel that Ewing deserves his own place atop the list.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 20, 2005 1:54:14 GMT -5
Yeah, I like that set up a lot SF! I just dont know enough about Jim Barry to know whether or not he fits there. Me, neither. he was an honorable mention All-American, though. I think the interesting thing about this would be to see where folks who saw them play would put the Mark Tillmons, Gene Smiths, Charles Smiths, Wingates, Derrick Jacksons, Craig Sheltons, etc. relative to Mike, Allen, etc. While Allen has been probably our third most successful NBA player to do (or even second), only staying two years (Elite Eight, Sweet Sixteen) prohiited from having the team success a lot of these other guys did. 1980: Elite Eight 1981: 1st Round 1982: Championship Game 1983: Second Round 1984: NCAA Champions 1985: Championship Game 1986: Second Round 1987: Elite Eight 1988: Second Round 1989: Elite Eight (and last BET championship) 1990: Second Round 1991: Second Round 1992: Second Round That's thirteen straight years of NCAA bids and going to at least the second round. People like you and I have our favorites, but it is probably going to be hard to convince someone that anyone from the 90s was better than Bill Martin, no matter what stats say. Martin went to 3 Final Fours. He's 13th in scoring, 8th in rebounding, and was honorable All-American like Jim Barry. He averaged only 9.2 ppg for his career. Barry also was an honorable All-American. He played three years due to injury. His teams were (obviously) not as good. His scoring average declined each year, but averaged 17.3 for his career, and 22.6 in his sophomore year. Where do each of these guys fall? My designations don't work well -- I'm inclined to put Martin above Barry. But what do I know? (I do know this: 1983-84 Team was sick by any standards: Michael Jackson, Fred Brown, Gene Smith, Bill Martin, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Williams, David Wingate, Michael Graham. Ewing, Jackson, Martin, Williams and Wingate were all drafted in the first two rounds. Then again, what does that mean? 1994-5 team has Othella, Jerome, Jahidi, Don Reid and Iverson do as well in the draft but not in the standings).
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 20, 2005 2:01:56 GMT -5
Yeah, SF-I like your set up a lot better than mine.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Jan 20, 2005 3:44:40 GMT -5
Interesting topic. Here are a few thoughts, borrowing on the UNC hierarchy or "retired numbers", "retired jerseys" and "honored jerseys": Tier 1: A player must be voted National Player of the Year during his tenure. Members: Patrick Ewing. Tier 2: A player must be a 1st or 2nd team All-American. Members: Mahnken, Kraus, Duren, Shelton, Floyd, Williams, Mourning, Smith, Iverson. Tier 3: A player must have received some All-American honor (ie, honorable mention). Members: Hargaden, Buehler, Barry, Martin, M. Jackson, McDonald, Mutombo, Page, Sweetney Tier 4: A great player for his era that did not receive A-A citation. Members: Kostecka, Missett, J. Brown, Sullivan, Adrion, Laughna, M. Wilson, J. Smith, D. Jackson, Dutch, Wingate, Tillmon, Harrington, J. Williams, Braswell. Tier 5: Solid players within their era. Members: Many. Comments? DFW, that's pretty interesting. One of the things i notice in level 4, is that most of them preceded the real glory years -- that is, through Al Dutch. Because of that, i think it was a lot harder for those guys to get national recognition. A few names jump out as great Hoyas... Derrick Jackson Jonathan Smith Merlin Wilson -- but for his recurrent back problems, that guy would have been a real national star. Artie White is not on the list, but he was an awesome player on the '70 team that went to the NIT. Mike Laughna was terrific for his era, but couldn't come close to a Reggie Williams.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Jan 20, 2005 4:05:23 GMT -5
I think the interesting thing about this would be to see where folks who saw them play would put the Mark Tillmons, Gene Smiths, Charles Smiths, Wingates, Derrick Jacksons, Craig Sheltons, etc. relative to Mike, Allen, etc. Where does Michael Sweetney rank? I would say he is the best Power Forward GU ever had. The other two that come to mind are Craig Shelton, and Michael Graham. Too bad he screwed up his own career. Graham was awesome his freshman year. He could have been huge. I don't really understand why some want to "penalize" a guy because he didn't stay four years. If we are saying -- who accomplished the most.... well, that's one thing. but who was the best? So what if Iverson left after two years. He was in his own category for guards, number one pick in the entire draft, rookie of the year... how do you argue the guy should have stayed longer? I saw a lot of these guys play. There is no question Allen was the most gifted guard ever to play for GU. Was he the best? That is a different sort of evaluation. Depends on the criteria. Most productive, most oustanding over 4 years? That has to be Sleepy. Charles Smith was probably our best Point guard, some might argue Michael Jackson, who was also terrific. Reggie Williams was simply incredible. Another guy in his own class at SF. As for the questions about Bowman... someone posted early on that it was much too early to judge. his first two years almost don't count. He is just now benefitting from real coaching and learning how to play. I believe we will look back on his Junior and Senior years and be astounded by how much better he got over his first two years. He has a chance to be considered among the best Hoyas. he is certainly one of the most physically gifted. But for me, the guy who really has greatness in his future is Jeff Green. To be doing so much as a freshman... when I watch this team play, he is the most dependable guy on the court. He is a great athlete, a team player and incredibly determined too. Here's another way to look at our team historically. If you could name an all time starting five, who would you choose? for me, it would be Ewing Sweetney R. Williams A. Iverson S. Floyd. Sweetney gets the nod over Zo because he really was a PF.
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Post by michiganhoya on Jan 20, 2005 8:00:19 GMT -5
I don't understand how Iverson doesn't consistently fall into the top tier in any of these constructs. He was, and is, the most talented and athletic player ever to wear a Georgetown uniform.
While he was only there for two years, he had any number of crazy exciting games.
He left primarily because he was the number one pick in the draft.
IMO he definitely had more of an impact on the school than anyone from 1990 onward, including Zo. Before him, obviously Ewing and perhaps Reggie Williams would fit into his rarefied category.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 20, 2005 8:29:48 GMT -5
I have too agree with Michigan, we have to take into account some other statistics for Iverson:
his benchmark stats unquestionable: Points: 1,539 (12) Assists: 307 (13) Steals: 213 (4) PPG: 23.0 (1)
All-American Team: HM & 1st Team BE Defensive Player of the Year: TWICE BE Rookie of the Year BE All-Rookie Team
2 NCAA Appearances: Elite 8, First Round
He also has 7 of the 50 highest scoring efforts by any Hoya...no one comes close to that mark.
Will you tell your kids about it? yes
Did he have games where he absolutely dominated? yes
Was he the best at his posistion in the conference? yes
Country? yes
Not to mention the various intangibles, such as how he jumpstarted the Hoya image...as much as some on the board disagree, GU roared back onto the national scene with AI.
I think it's a no brainer he's on the tier right below Ewing...his stats are out of control considering he only played two years, hell, they would be great if they were over 4 years.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 20, 2005 8:47:40 GMT -5
I don't understand how Iverson doesn't consistently fall into the top tier in any of these constructs. He was, and is, the most talented and athletic player ever to wear a Georgetown uniform. While he was only there for two years, he had any number of crazy exciting games. He left primarily because he was the number one pick in the draft. IMO he definitely had more of an impact on the school than anyone from 1990 onward, including Zo. Before him, obviously Ewing and perhaps Reggie Williams would fit into his rarefied category. Iverson's probably in the top five, along with Ewing, Floyd, Williams and Mourning. However, his long-term impact is a mixed one. Iverson will never be selected to Georgetown's Hall of Fame, for example, because he did not graduate. The others above all did.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 20, 2005 9:31:44 GMT -5
I think we are really getting too carried away with this. Really, anybody who gave their all to Georgetown should be commended. Treating and ranking players like livestock is a little trivial and futile. All the players that have been mentioned that contibuted significantly can't really be measured in statistics. There are a lot of players in college and the NBA, that are great stat stuffers. But things like heart, the will to win, rising to the occasion in pressure situations, don't show up in box scores, and scoring averages. I think the players that have been already been mentioned along with a host of others, have the intangible qualities, which really is the marking of Georgetown players and the JT2 era. Brandon Bowman is a great player. And will go down as one of the better players to play at G'town. To be able to average to the number of rebounds he has, with that small wiry frame is incredible. His game is more of a wing-player, but did a great job playing inside last year, and sometimes this year when called to do so. Go Brandon, go Hoyas, go JTIII, and go GU!
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 20, 2005 12:00:46 GMT -5
Sir Saxa, that'd be my five as well, from what I know.
Cambridge brings up a really good point on Bubbachuck. While there would have been no Bubbachuck without Ewing, and maybe even Mourning, it is the memory of Iverson that has sustained our basketball name with the kids for the last few years.
DFW, for the reason above, I think Allen has a lasting effect on the program even if he is not celebrated by the admin or as participatory in the program as Patrick or Zo.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Jan 20, 2005 13:23:57 GMT -5
Agree -- Jeff Green just talked about how much he admired Iverson.
If we can get Allen a little more connected to the program it would be to our recruiting advantage.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 20, 2005 13:34:38 GMT -5
Agree -- Jeff Green just talked about how much he admired Iverson. If we can get Allen a little more connected to the program it would be to our recruiting advantage. I think Allen is a little more connected than we think he is. I remember DJ Owens said he talked to Iverson and Iverson talked to him about his game, etc. Iverson said he watches all of the games. At the same, I don't think Allen is like Zo/Ewing/Harrington/Mutumbo when it comes to remaining connected. With him having the success he has in the NBA, still has a lasting effect for the G'town program. I think Allen's connection is more along the lines with Coach Thompson. That will always be there.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Jan 20, 2005 13:40:39 GMT -5
I think almost all who are posting seem to believe that basketball at Georgetown started with the arrival of Sleepy Floyd as all of their top five (SirSaxa, DFW, for instance) are Floyd and later. I think that does great injustice to those who came before them and there were many really good players in prior years. Everyone seems to be basing their big time players on what they have observed themselves or been told by first hand observers. How do you compare a Sweetney or Alonzo, for instance, with someone you never had the chance to see or hear about?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 20, 2005 13:47:30 GMT -5
I think almost all who are posting seem to believe that basketball at Georgetown started with the arrival of Sleepy Floyd as all of their top five (SirSaxa, DFW, for instance) are Floyd and later. I think that does great injustice to those who came before them and there were many really good players in prior years. Everyone seems to be basing their big time players on what they have observed themselves or been told by first hand observers. How do you compare a Sweetney or Alonzo, for instance, with someone you never had the chance to see or hear about? Which is why I've asked some of you folks to comment. You obviously don't have to, but it would be pretty easy for you to remedy the situation. Give us some background on these guys.
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GUHoya07
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Post by GUHoya07 on Jan 20, 2005 13:50:07 GMT -5
Of course it is extremely difficult to compare and that is why we are asking for input from the older alums.
However, prior to Thompson's arrival and players like Sleepy, Georgetown was not nearly as successful in postseason play. Georgetown earned its prestige and became a dominant college basketball program with the arrival of these players.
I'm sure there were some great individual players earlier and even some very good teams, but when we try to determine the absolute best players in GU History we have to factor in postseason success and where those players helped us clmb to in national standing.
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hoyadrummer
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Post by hoyadrummer on Jan 20, 2005 13:58:57 GMT -5
I think that GU basketball players pre-Thompson the Elder are like baseball players pre-1900, you just draw a line and agree not to compare them the modern players because so much has changed that comparisons are meaningless.
I'm sure there were great players back then, my dentist is one of them, a four year lettermen in three different sports at GU, member of the GU Athletic Hall of Fame, etc etc. But seriously, how do you compare someone from a era in which players could letter in three sports against someone in the modern era?
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