1803
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
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Post by 1803 on Dec 1, 2004 15:00:32 GMT -5
This was a classic panic move by the powers that be in South Bend.
Let's just say that they get Urban Meyer, or one of the NFL reaches like Shanahan. Say that coach does pretty well the first year, and then slides. Do they then have to fire him and put Notre Dame Nation through another coaching search.
Kevin White's press conference yesterday was like a scene from Groundhog Day. All the talk about a national search, names being floated, questions of whether the Irish will ever be back. Does anyone really think that Willingham was the reason they were not winning big. The world has changed, and if they think some wunderkind from the WAC or Mountain West is going to give the Domers a perennial BCS entry they are going to be in for a rude awakening.
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HOYAPLAYA
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
IT'S TIME FOR A RUNNNNNNN!!!!!!
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Dec 1, 2004 15:05:41 GMT -5
I couldn't agree with you more. The fact is that they are Boston College-level talent and I'm not sure they will ever return to where they were. What's funny is that I fully expect Penn St. to return to their glory years faster than Notre Dame. Once Paterno retires and they can beat the "negative recruiting", i believe they will be up there with Ohio State, Michigan and Wisconsin for the Big Ten championship on a consistent basis.
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SaxaCD
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by SaxaCD on Dec 1, 2004 15:16:57 GMT -5
Then again, as has also been pointed out, excuses about talent don't wash -- if you're good enough to beat Tennessee and Michigan, then you should be good enough to beat BC, Pitt and BYU.
I don't think it was the W-L record that doomed TW as much as HOW they lost the games they did lose. Talk about inconsistency!
I think he deserved another year, but I really don't fault ND for canning him, either. I'd say it was a 50/50 call. And I'm no ND fan.
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HOYAPLAYA
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
IT'S TIME FOR A RUNNNNNNN!!!!!!
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Dec 1, 2004 15:31:37 GMT -5
Then again, as has also been pointed out, excuses about talent don't wash -- if you're good enough to beat Tennessee and Michigan, then you should be good enough to beat BC, Pitt and BYU. I don't think it was the W-L record that doomed TW as much as HOW they lost the games they did lose. Talk about inconsistency! I think he deserved another year, but I really don't fault ND for canning him, either. I'd say it was a 50/50 call. And I'm no ND fan. Let's start off by saying that college football is one sport where consistent play is rarely seen throughout the season. Even Oklahoma, USC and Auburn have played poor games this year. The difference is they have enough talent to overcome and still beat good teams when they play poorly. ND doesn't and hasn't for a while now. If they play great, they can beat a Michigan or Tennessee caliber team (keep in mind that both of these teams had freshman QB's that led to inconsistent play in their seasons). They have no shot at beating an USC, Oklahoma or Auburn caliber team. The truth is that the talent isn't there to compete on that level and if they don't play their best games, they lose to teams like BC and Pitt (who have similar levels of talent by the way) and BYU.
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Post by NY Hoya on Dec 1, 2004 15:57:05 GMT -5
Let's start off by saying that college football is one sport where consistent play is rarely seen throughout the season. Even Oklahoma, USC and Auburn have played poor games this year. The difference is they have enough talent to overcome and still beat good teams when they play poorly. ND doesn't and hasn't for a while now. If they play great, they can beat a Michigan or Tennessee caliber team (keep in mind that both of these teams had freshman QB's that led to inconsistent play in their seasons). They have no shot at beating an USC, Oklahoma or Auburn caliber team. The truth is that the talent isn't there to compete on that level and if they don't play their best games, they lose to teams like BC and Pitt (who have similar levels of talent by the way) and BYU. I'm not sure that the data backs up your point on a lack of talent... www.ndnation.com/boards/showpost.cgi?football+189240Scroll to the bottom
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 1, 2004 16:12:02 GMT -5
Interesting.
But what I really want to know is how many blowout losses Notre Dame had under Tyrone Willingham compared to its previous coaches. Think someone could work that up for me?
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SaxaCD
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by SaxaCD on Dec 1, 2004 16:32:00 GMT -5
It's actually on a pie chart on that linked page.
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Post by NY Hoya on Dec 1, 2004 16:36:36 GMT -5
It's actually on a pie chart on that linked page. I think he already knew that
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hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
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Post by hoyainspirit on Dec 2, 2004 12:30:24 GMT -5
Ty got shafted with no grease. To can the man after only two recruiting classes, regardless of where those classes were ranked, is IMO, indefensible, especially given their history with prior coaches.
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by SirSaxa on Dec 2, 2004 13:58:38 GMT -5
Ty got shafted with no grease. To can the man after only two recruiting classes, regardless of where those classes were ranked, is IMO, indefensible, especially given their history with prior coaches. I agree with that -- particularly after all the comments three years ago about returning integrity to the Football program. They said classroom performance was really important. They wanted a coach who was beyond reproach after O'Leary's resume debacle. And Willingham had some great games and a 21-5 record. I am guessing they learned they had a shot a Meyer so they went for it. Wllingham should have had at LEAST one more year. Be that as it may, I would also guess he'll have another good job soon, and ND will still be fighting an uphill battle to be on a par with USC, Miami, OK, etc.
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HOYAPLAYA
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IT'S TIME FOR A RUNNNNNNN!!!!!!
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Dec 2, 2004 14:14:45 GMT -5
So now you're trying to tell me that recruiting services for HS football is a good measure of talent. Let's start with the ND factor (aka Duke basketball factor on recruiting rankings) that automatically elevates a kid's ranking because he is on the ND wish list. If you don't like that one, then just watch the game. It's not that the USC players were better coached, but are you telling me that you couldn't tell the speed difference at the skills positions. Rankings mean nothing as do comparing the number of blowout losses that a coach has when 3 of them came at the hands of a USC team that is heads and shoulders better than the USC teams that Bob Davie or Lou Holtz had to face. That combined with the fact that everyone knows that ND's admission standards for all athletes has in fact become more strict over the past 10 years causes all of that historical information to be useless. It's like the argument on whether Peyton Manning is playing the QB position right now better than anyone ever has in history. The stats would lead me to agree with that argument, but the difference in how the offensive game is played combined with the fact that defensive players get called for holding/pass interference for sneezing on a passing receiver leads me to ignore the stats and just watch the game for myself. When I do that, I see Peyton Manning throwing to a lot of wide open receivers and still receiving the benefit of Edgerrin James in the backfield on play action passes. With that being said, Manning is hands down the best QB in the league right now. I'm just not sure if we can say that he's playing the best ever. I'll end this post with this - I feel sorry for the ND fan that truly believes a coaching change is going to make them a perennial championship contender.
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FOTP
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by FOTP on Dec 2, 2004 15:05:20 GMT -5
All right...I'll be the one to say it. WHy is everyone so up in arms about Willingham or any of these guys getting fired? I'm baffled. Big deal.
These guys get paid in excess of $1M/year to coach a freaking game. With that $ comes expectations....and yes that means wins. Period. If a school wanted a coach to graduate players and have a good program from Sunday to Friday then they should pay a teacher $80K to tutor the kids.
The kids are getting free rides to college...the coaches are getting paid millions from booster mostly. So they're being held to higher standard in terms of win and losses. Big deal.
At the end of the day Ty didn't get the job done. After a frankly improbably 8-0 start he's been downright terrible. You can argue that the program was going backwards. Let's see...his record in his last 26 games was 11-15....that's not very good.
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HOYAPLAYA
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
IT'S TIME FOR A RUNNNNNNN!!!!!!
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Dec 2, 2004 15:24:03 GMT -5
That's very short-sighted way of looking at college athletics and the performance of a college football coach. The team went 10-3 the first year where everyone knows they played way over their head. They came crashing back to earth last year at 4-7 and ended up at 6-5 with a possible bowl win leaving them at 7-5. A reasonable AD would expect the team to get to 9 wins in year 4 and be able to sustain that. If you get to 9 wins with your recruits and system and then fall back to 5 wins the following year, then I say you fire the coach. It's been 5 years and your consistency of winning can be questioned. I would have been more understandable had last year's record been 7-5 and this year's record been 4-7. In that case, you could say that there was no improvement being made. Either way, in today's game ND is at best an 8-9 win team with an occasional chance to get into the double digits if the ball bounces the right way. Ty was working to get the team back there and wasn't given a chance to finish what he started and I think that's poor.
I'm a die hard Hoya fan and I'll tell you right now, that until our facilities improve we have no shot at competing for a national championship. Our ceiling stems on our facilities, ND's ceiling is based on the dynamics of today's college football game and their academic requirements. I hate to say it, but you're not going to get every top flight player who is a good student to attend ND and that's what they would need in order to compete with the likes of the big boys in today's game.
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Post by NY Hoya on Dec 2, 2004 16:06:14 GMT -5
Playa, I guess you can still claim they have no better than BC level talent, but I don't know how you can just dismiss the composite rankings out of hand... They are obviously not perfect and there probably is a "Duke factor" associated with ND recruits. On the other hand, that Duke factor doesn't lead to Duke being listed with a top 5 class when in reality they have a sub-25 class. They get the talent. As does ND. One way to get around that effect is to look at who they beat out to get recruits. ND still beats out USC, Miami, Mich, Ohio State and other top programs to get recruits. Another way to look at it is that Willingham's recruiting classes have been worse than Davie's, as close to an apples to apples comparison as we can get. That, despite the fact that Willingham benefited from a tremendous amount of good press during and after his initial season. I'm not sure how closely you've followed the Irish over the years, but it's obvious that they've underutilized a lot of the talent they have had under the past two coaches. Look at Givens under Davie. Look at Julius Jones under Ty. Look at the fact that ND ran all over SC's defensive line in the first quarter last Saturday but when SC's coaches adjusted Ty couldn't. Heck, he turned away from the running game. Look at Ty's horrible playcalling in the third quarter particularly the two trick plays with Holiday coming out of a timeout. Look at the fact that he was able to beat Michigan and Tennessee but lose to much less talented teams. The inconsistency in play and poor in game decisions are eerily similar to what we witnessed at GU under Esh. I'm disappointed more people here don't see the comparison. Your point on Auburn and USC having an off game is well taken, but most ND fans see a bigger swing in play from high to low than what we consider acceptable and more off games than is acceptable. No one expected 11-0 this year but a lot did expect at least 8 wins against that schedule. The Manning analogy doesn't really work in this case. I agree that it's pointless to compare individuals' stats if those individuals play in different eras. I don't think that applies as well to team comparisons. A 30 point blowout sucks as much today as it did 40 years ago, the game hasn't changed enough to make that comparison moot. Hey, if you aren't a Notre Dame fan, be happy that we fired such a good coach. ND can't do any better, right? Your (Eagles? Trojans? Wolverines?) will just keep beating us.
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kghoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by kghoya on Dec 2, 2004 23:39:58 GMT -5
people have short memories...it wasnt that long ago that both OU and USC werent very good...coaches do matter people
ty was an up and down coach at stanford (see his record) and he will most likely always be an up and down coach
if he beats bc, pitt, and byu and loses to michigan and tenn he might have had a better chance at keeping his job...he could have used the talent excuse...instead he showed he had talent and was obviously not capable of producing a consistent product
ps...losing to one of your biggest rivals by 31 every year didnt help
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hoyaboy1
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Dec 3, 2004 2:06:11 GMT -5
There is a very, very obvious reason that some people are upset about Willingham being fired despite his mediocre at best performance.
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SaxaCD
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by SaxaCD on Dec 3, 2004 6:21:31 GMT -5
As an impartial observer -- I'm no big ND fan, but don't hate them, either -- I can understand why people think he deserved one more year to get his own guys throughout the roster. He had some real quality wins and from all accounts cleaned up all the off the field messes left by his predecessor. On the other hand, I also think ND is at a point now where they need to salvage their rep for their national TV and radio networks, and don't have the luxury of having guys growing into the job, especially if they are absorbing losses of 30 points or more.
One thing's for sure -- if they do get the guy from Utah, but the results remain the same, they're going to have to think long and hard about factors other than the coach being a cause. Personally, I think maybe Ty just simply wasn't a good fit for where he was. I have a feeling that both ND and Willingham might be very successful after this parting, and it's going to make juicy TV the next time they meet up on opposite sides of the football field.
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HOYAPLAYA
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
IT'S TIME FOR A RUNNNNNNN!!!!!!
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Dec 3, 2004 7:08:25 GMT -5
There is a very, very obvious reason that some people are upset about Willingham being fired despite his mediocre at best performance. Is that the case, hoyaboy1? My problem with your statement is that if you have something to say, then be a man about it and say it. Hell, you can always hide behind your screen name anyway. My problem with the firing is that he wasn't afforded the same opportunity that his predecessor was and came in with better credentials than Bob Davie. He was a successful Pac-10 coach (2-time coach of the year) and now they are making a change to a MWC coach of the year and that's the reasoning behind his firing. Let's be honest, it's not that they didn't believe that Ty could rebuild this team over the next 2 years, it's that Urban Meyer became available and they were afraid that they would lose him to Florida. Since you are obviously trying to make race as the only issue why people are upset, let me ask you a question...When is the last time that it happened the other way around? If you don't understand my question, I'll put it out there like a man would and like you should have in your post if that's what you really felt. When is the last time that a white coach was fired (with better credentials I might add) or not afforded the opportunity to finish the rebuilding process because there was a hot "minority" candidate out there that they were afraid that they would lose to another school? It's just something to think about and I would have been upset regardless of what race Ty was, but thanks for trying to help me figure out why I'm upset about his firing.
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hoyarooter
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by hoyarooter on Dec 3, 2004 12:24:29 GMT -5
Word, Hoyaplaya. I don't think there is much that can be added to that.
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hoyaboy1
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Dec 3, 2004 12:24:55 GMT -5
I'm not saying its wrong for race to play a role. Race is obviously a concern in hiring practices, but it is highly disengenous to pretend that it isn't the main factor in the outrage a lot of people (almost none of which are ND fans, I might add) are expressing.
People should just come out and say why they really have a problem with this. If Willingham was a 50 year old white guy no one would be complaining. This isn't about his performance - any ND fan will tell you it wasn't very good. ND learned their lesson when Davie wasn't up to par in year 3 or year 5; not to waste 2 more years this time.
Solich, who had a lot more sucess, had half the defenders.
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