aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Dec 6, 2004 9:30:34 GMT -5
I never said that there was no racism in college sports. What I did say was that the type of institutional racism that you are suggesting occured here not only didn't happen, but doesn't even make sense. Your argument, as I see it, is that Notre Dame (or at least their athletic department) hates black people, but that they were somehow shamed into hiring Ty. They then hoped that he would fail so that they could fire him, thus vindicating their racist beliefs. Read that over again if it didn't make sense to you either. The slippery slope here (I just read the topic again) is that schools will see what has happened at Notre Dame (ie. firing an underperforming coach who happened to be black) and decide that they would rather hire a white coach that they can dismiss whenever they desire than to take a chance at this type of negative publicity. Maybe Willingham's dismissal had nothing to do with race...maybe it did... In my opinion, it did have something to do with race... It would be a lot harder for me to say it was racism if it wasn't for the fact that every other coach, who just so happened to be white, was allowed to complete his contract...the first time that a coach was not allowed to complete his contract was Willingham...who just so happened to be Black... Sorry if you don't believe it, but they were shamed into hiring Willingham... Like I said before, I don't believe in going anywhere where I'm not wanted...I turned down Carolina because they had a KKK organization on campus...I turned down Duke for similar reasons... It was a travesty for Jesse Jackson and others to get involved and pressure Notre Dame into hiring a Black coach... But the bigger travesty is that Black people still don't get it...Why are we so desperate for approval and validation from people that never have, and never will give a damn about you? Sorry you don't believe that there are entire institutions that hate Black people...evidently, you believe that Jim Crow and segregation took place 200 years ago and there's been no hint of racism since...you should have gone to school deeper in the South...you'd be smacked with it 'on the daily'... I'm off this now...and I'm no more angry than I usually am...so don't think this is just some 'angry Black Man' rant... It's just so amazing how so many white folks can dismiss everything so easily as, "You're just playing the 'Race-Card'..." You reap what you sow...
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Dec 6, 2004 10:57:11 GMT -5
I agree with the "angry black man rant" and think that ND & many other institutions still feel too much pressure from their boosters and aren't willing to stick their neck out. Hopefully more black coaches will be hired and will be given the same opportunities their predecessors received. That is the biggest mistake here is that ND didn't let him be successful as he needed to recruit an entire class of his type of players. Just because a class was poorly ranked, doesn't mean they can't be successful. Just look at what GW has done in the first few weeks of the season and that becomes evident.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 6, 2004 11:27:22 GMT -5
Thank you, agg, I will now inform my black friends and acquaintances that I do not care about them. I was frankly unsure of my own feelings but you've set me straight.
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Dec 6, 2004 11:47:22 GMT -5
I feel sorry for you, aggypryd. Gotta be tough to get by with an attitude that badly warped.
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Dec 6, 2004 12:30:59 GMT -5
Thank you, agg, I will now inform my black friends and acquaintances that I do not care about them. I was frankly unsure of my own feelings but you've set me straight. I never called you a racist...But if it makes you feel better to believe that I lump all people of certain ethnic backgrounds into categories, that's cool... Let me ask you something...Do you treat your friends that are Black differently than you treat your other friends? If not, why do you label them as your Black Friends[/i]? When you introduce them as your friend, do you say, "This is my Black friend 'insert name'..."? I have friends that just so happen to be white, Indian, Egyptian, Chinese, Japanese, etc…and some whose ethnic backgrounds of which I’m not aware…But they ain’t my friends because I needed someone to fill certain ‘Ethnic Friend’ slots in my life…They’re my friends because ‘They my Man…a hundred-grand…” You might want to think about that before you go around referring to your friends that are Black, as your ‘Black friends’… Racism 101... The first thing a racist will say is that he has Black friends... The second thing he'll do is vehemently deny he is one... (If I did call you a racist, which I didn't, why would an accusation by some fat Black guy that you've never met, probably will never meet, doesn't know you from Adam, matter to you?)Other things a racist will say... "When I look at you, I don't see color..." "You're not like the other Black people I've met..." It's cool that you think that having Black friends makes you not a racist...but you need to know that that is absurd...Just because a person isn't burning crosses in people's yards and/or calling them the 'Special Word', it doesn't mean that they're not a racist... Some are just better at hiding it...
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Dec 6, 2004 12:44:26 GMT -5
I only see one racist in this thread, and it isn't SFHoya.
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Dec 6, 2004 13:06:20 GMT -5
I only see one racist in this thread, and it isn't SFHoya. I don't understand this one... For sticking up for Black people or proposing another point of view, that makes someone a racist? Please elaborate.... You may be confusing 'prejudice' and 'racist'...do some research next time, Sport...I hope you're not having your parents spend this much money on a Georgetown education and you're still having problems with 10th grade vocabulary words... By the way...I never called SFHoya a racist...read a little more carefully next time...
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Dec 6, 2004 13:10:21 GMT -5
I think having a crazed bunker mentality and thinking that other races (specifically whites) are out to get you makes you a racist. I certainly don't know you well enough to make a strong case, but you aren't coming off very well in this thread.
And while you may not have directly called SFHoya a racist, you certainly went out of your way to insinuate it.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Dec 6, 2004 13:11:56 GMT -5
I think it's time for all to cool it.
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Dec 6, 2004 13:13:40 GMT -5
I would agree with that, Ed. But aggypryd's last post where he basically said SFHoya was a racist annoyed me a little bit.
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Dec 6, 2004 13:23:41 GMT -5
I would agree with that, Ed. But aggypryd's last post where he basically said SFHoya was a racist annoyed me a little bit. Crazed Bunker mentality...hmmm...oh well... Anyway... I think you're reading into things... I went out of my way to say that I'm not calling him a racist... But he's not gonna come at me and tell me he has some black friends and think that is supposed to mean something to me... I have friends that are white...does that mean anything to you? Exactly...
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 6, 2004 13:30:49 GMT -5
I never called you a racist...But if it makes you feel better to believe that I lump all people of certain ethnic backgrounds into categories, that's cool..
You seem to lump white people together.
Let me ask you something...Do you treat your friends that are Black differently than you treat your other friends? If not, why do you label them as your "Black Friends"?
When you introduce them as your friend, do you say, "This is my Black friend 'insert name'..."?
I used Black friends because it was pertinent to the discussion. I have never intorduced anyone as my "black friend."
I have friends that just so happen to be white, Indian, Egyptian, Chinese, Japanese, etc…and some whose ethnic backgrounds of which I’m not aware…But they ain’t my friends because I needed someone to fill certain ‘Ethnic Friend’ slots in my life…They’re my friends because ‘They my Man…a hundred-grand…”
I don't have quotas on my friends either. I'm not quite sure where you came up with that.
You might want to think about that before you go around referring to your friends that are Black, as your ‘Black friends’…
Racism 101...
The first thing a racist will say is that he has Black friends...
The second thing he'll do is vehemently deny he is one...
(If I did call you a racist, which I didn't, why would an accusation by some fat Black guy that you've never met, probably will never meet, doesn't know you from Adam, matter to you?)
Other things a racist will say...
"When I look at you, I don't see color..."
"You're not like the other Black people I've met..."
It's cool that you think that having Black friends makes you not a racist...but you need to know that that is absurd...Just because a person isn't burning crosses in people's yards and/or calling them the 'Special Word', it doesn't mean that they're not a racist...
Some are just better at hiding it...
I have no idea where you are going with this, but I find it funny that you both a) denied you were racist against white people, then b) commented that you had white friends.
I have no doubt there is racism is every part of society, but comments like "Why are we [balck people] so desperate for approval and validation from people that never have, and never will give a damn about you?"
No who the heck was that second people supposed to be? You sure as heck didn't mean "only racist people" because I question how you know the ND decision makers and fans are racist.
I'm pretty sure you meant "white people" and if you did, that's prejudiced. And that's what I took exception to.
Surely you can see that your argument that "racists say they aren't" or such is an impoosible argument to prove or disprove, and as such is infuriating to anyone you throw it at?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 6, 2004 13:35:42 GMT -5
I have friends that are white...does that mean anything to you? Exactly... It tells me you're not so racist as to not have white friends. My point was not to tell you I have white friends. Maybe I was wrong to read it this way, but your post implied that white people don't care about black people. I was making a sarcastic response that the black people I do care about would be surprised to hear that.
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SoCalHoya
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Post by SoCalHoya on Dec 6, 2004 13:40:16 GMT -5
Everyone needs to chill! Nobody here on HoyaTalk is a racist! I mean, if you are racist, why the heck would you spend time on this board? I would think having a proud Hoya tradition of afro-americans in our administration, as students, faculty and leading our sports teams would weed those out. Don't get me wrong, we can always do better and we've got our own black-eyes to prove it, but I think we've done a pretty good job and are consistently seen as a pro-diversity and pro-afro-american empowerment school. In fact, The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education always has us consistently ranked in the top 10. Maybe others don't place much importance on this, but to me, it matters a lot and is one of the things makes GU special.
IMHO, Willingham wasn't fired because he was black. Had he brought home a national championship, he would still be at ND. The crowds would love him. 5-year extension and a pat on the back.
However, it doesn't mean that race wasn't a factor. ND is a great school, similar to Gtown in many ways. It falls short, however, when it comes to things like diversity. It is much more homogeneous and conservative. These things, by themselves, don't necessarily mean that racism or prejudice has infected a school. Sadly, having family members that are active alumni, I must say that prejudice does play an active role at ND. The alumni were never fully on board with Willingham. Not solely because he was black, though I'm sure that was a factor for some, but because he wasn't one of "their own." Maybe that's saying the same thing. I think the "us" factor is less invidious, more unconscious. But it still illustrates that race was a factor. The culture there is different, folks.
The ND Board of Trustees though they were being pretty PR-savvy when they first hired Ty. In fact, it seemed brilliant, didn't it? Cleaned off the egg in their face from the O'Leary incident. "Hey look, here's our John Thompson of football." Unfortunately, ND would not support a black coach longer than they absolutely had to. Had he been Irish, Catholic, mid-western...one of "them," I can guarantee you he would've been around at least the full-term of his contract. Just ask Bob Davie.
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HOYAPLAYA
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Dec 6, 2004 13:43:15 GMT -5
I would agree with that, Ed. But aggypryd's last post where he basically said SFHoya was a racist annoyed me a little bit. That's odd considering we were heading down the road of having a good discussion on whether Willingham deserved another season or two until you posted and I quote "There is a very, very obvious reason that some people are upset about Willingham being fired despite his mediocre at best performance." This is the post that annoyed me and led the thread to where it is right now. I had decided just this morning that I wasn't going to post to this thread any more and let it die, but you are really something. Your original post where you made an ASSumption about why SOME PEOPLE were upset was what Editeded me off and I believe is what has contributed to this thread turning into a idiotic debate on racism in college football. Does it exist? Hell yeah, it exists and I can give you plenty of better examples of it than Willingham getting fired. The problem is you tried to be slick on an internet chat board and essentially say that blacks are upset because he was a minority that got fired instead of a good coach who was attempting to rebuild a program that got fired prematurely In case you weren't aware, a lot of us who fall into your SOME PEOPLE category are intelligent enough to form an opinion and not just a minority/black opinion. Also, there have been a lot of caucasians (college football coaches, analysts, former ND players, various sports announcers, etc..,) who have come out since the Willingham firing and disagreed with the move that was made by ND. Can you please enlighten us all on the "very, very obvious reason that THESE PEOPLE are upset with Willingham being fired".
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Dec 6, 2004 14:02:36 GMT -5
Last I checked, some people doesn't mean everyone. Some people were upset with the Willingham firing primarily because of race. Some people were upset for other reasons. I think the role of the former in the national outrage was being ignored, which was unfair because it was clearly (see this thread) there. That was my point, and I still see it as valid.
If you intepreted my post to mean that blacks can't look past race when evaluating the firing, I apoligize. My comment was not meant to be that general.
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HOYAPLAYA
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IT'S TIME FOR A RUNNNNNNN!!!!!!
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Dec 6, 2004 14:22:31 GMT -5
If you intepreted my post to mean that blacks can't look past race when evaluating the firing, I apoligize. My comment was not meant to be that general. If this is the case, then no need to apologize as it could be simple misunderstanding. That's not to say I believe this is the case, but only you know what you meant by the original post and I can't/won't argue with you over your intentions as that would be ridiculous. That being said, I still hope ND finishes 5-6 and 6-5 for the next 56 or 65 years because as much as people want to talk about the BCS ruining college football, boosters/alumni who have the ear of the athletic department are 10 times worse for the sport. High character athletes and high levels of success aren't mutually exclusive in college football, but ND needs to know that high character young men and average grades/poor standardized test scores aren't mutually exclusive either. ND has received worse PR for this move than they would have received for putting some faith in a head coach to recruit only the highest character of kids who may have not fit the ND academic standards. I believe Ty Willingham is the type of man (similar to our John Thompson) who could have provided an opportunity to some of these kids and would have proven to ND alumni/fans that college is truly about taking advantage of an opportunity. Some get it because of their athletic ability, others because of their musical talents, and some because of how much their family has donated and at the end of the day all should be judged individually based on how they took advantage of the opportunity or didn't.
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Dec 6, 2004 14:31:04 GMT -5
It tells me you're not so racist as to not have white friends. My point was not to tell you I have white friends. Maybe I was wrong to read it this way, but your post implied that white people don't care about black people. I was making a sarcastic response that the black people I do care about would be surprised to hear that. Look-up racist and prejudice…they cannot be used interchangeably…<br> Prejudice is to “Pre-Judge”…racist is something different…<br> I never said that all white people don’t care about Black people…I don’t know everybody white…I did not generalize, insinuate or imply that statement…<br> What I said was, it bothered me that some Black people feel that they need their worth to be validated by people that aren’t Black…hence the pressure by Jesse Jackson and the BCA placed on ND to hire Willingham…<br> I also said it’s stupid for Black people to send their kids to institutions that mistreat Black people…Penn State, UNC, Duke and yes…even Notre Dame…this statement has nothing to do with Willingham…this has to do with friends that attended Notre Dame and the many articles that I’ve read about minority students at Notre Dame…<br> I’ll stand by this statement ‘til the day I die!!! I would never send my child to an institution of higher learning where I know that Black people are mistreated…whether they’re athletes or just regular matriculating students…<br> The truth is, there are a lot of white people I don’t like…but there are probably twice as many Black people I don’t like…if we go down the line, I can probably name someone I don’t like from every different ethnic group you can think of…(I worked at the World Bank for awhile…) But I still think that part of the reason that Willingham was dismissed mid-way through his contract is because he’s Black…<br>
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 6, 2004 14:48:01 GMT -5
I don't disagree with anything you said there, except I have no idea which Universities mistreat black students...I guess I just misinterpreted something you said. Sorry for jumping to conclusions...
However, I'm unsure at why you draw such a line in regads to validation. I'm not one who thinks it is overly healthy to look to anyone else at validation, but why is legit to seek validation from your own race and not another?
BTW, this line made me laugh out loud: "I can probably name someone I don’t like from every different ethnic group you can think of…(I worked at the World Bank for awhile…)"
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FormerHoya
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Post by FormerHoya on Dec 6, 2004 15:11:46 GMT -5
USC fired their Basketball coach before his contract ended...
RACISM!!!!
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