HOYAPLAYA
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Dec 4, 2004 15:33:11 GMT -5
For all those that claim the talent is there or has been there for Ty to win consistently, let me add that it has been 10 years since ND has had a skill position guy taken in the first round. They will not have a skill position guy taken in the first round this years so you can make it 11. They have only had 3 lineman taken in the first round in the last 10 years. Now, can some of you start to understand that the only way ND beat teams like Michigan and Tennesee that have had and will have skill position players taken in the first round is by coaching. The reason they lose to teams like Pitt, BYU, and get hammered by USC is that they don't have the talent to beat these teams on a weekly basis. They have enough talent to play with these teams and hopefully pull out the victory. Ty was attempting to build the team back to the level of 8-9 wins which is realistically as good as it's going to get. Do you think Urban Meyer chose Florida because he liked the sunny weather more? No, it's because he received advice from some smart individuals (including some of the current coaches, his wife and his father) telling him that if he wanted his dream job to go to ND, but if he wanted to win and build a program he should go to Florida. The guy is 40 years and he learned from watching Davie and Willingham, that this job not only isn't a good job right now, but that it isn't worth the crap that you have to deal with just attempting to compete. ND will now have to turn to three types of candidates:
1.) Young coordinator who isn't prepared/qualified for the job but is looking for an opportunity and won't be successful. Notre Dame will try to spin it and make it look like the individual is ready, but time will show that he isn't.
2.) An old college head coach/coordinator (I call them re-treads)who doesn't care about whether he has a 3-year window because his career is winding down. This individual is usually someone who the game has passed by but every one will want to hold onto some past success that they've had. (See John Robinson)
3.) An NFL coach. (See Nebraska)
Any candidate that fits in any other category would be a fool for taking this position because it isn't going to work as they've now painted themselves into a corner where they have to fire you if you don't show drastic improvement in 3 years.
Good luck, GOLDEN DOMERS. You are going to need it.
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HOYAPLAYA
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Dec 4, 2004 15:40:47 GMT -5
I never said I took exception to race playing a role, although people should evaluate Ty's performance as a coach, not as a black coach. What I really took exception to was people NOT saying that race was a major issue for them when it really was. RACE may be an issue that you believe is causing the uproar, but some of us who are fans of the game, don't like to see any coach fired without cause. Ty wasn't the only one as I've mentioned the Ole Miss coach who got canned for one-losing season after five winning season in a row. He is white and should have been given another year to recover from losing the best QB in school history (Eli Manning). If you want to look for coaches who have been given enough time to rebuild their programs and haven't gotten done, then just check the ACC where you have three of them (UNC-Bunting; NC St.-Amato; Clemson-Bowden). Bunting is the only one that deserves another year due to his improvement on last year's record. However, they couldn't have been much worse than they were last year.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Dec 4, 2004 15:48:21 GMT -5
Julius Jones and David Givens stand out as just two of the recent examples of ND skill position players who have demonstrated that they may be every bit as good as first-round choices but they were drafted much lower in the NFL. They are physical talents who showed very little at ND and thus were not first round choices. Developing players into first round NFL picks is as important as anything else a coach can do, and the failure of Davie or Willingham to do that is as much an indictment of their coaching as anything else. Every year their recruiting class is ranked in the Top 10 in the country- they get talent despite all of the obstacles they face.
I do think ND was premature in firing Ty, but I also think he did not do a great job over those first 3 years. Giving him a chance to work with an upperclassman as his QB seems only fair. But his offense showed a lack of innovation, the recruiting classes were getting worse according to most rankings, and they thought they could get the guy who would turn it all around. In the end, they were wrong, but this belief that Ty was clearly on the right track is simply not supported by empirical evidence.
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HOYAPLAYA
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Dec 4, 2004 16:09:21 GMT -5
Julius Jones and David Givens stand out as just two of the recent examples of ND skill position players who have demonstrated that they may be every bit as good as first-round choices but they were drafted much lower in the NFL. They are physical talents who showed very little at ND and thus were not first round choices. Developing players into first round NFL picks is as important as anything else a coach can do, and the failure of Davie or Willingham to do that is as much an indictment of their coaching as anything else. Every year their recruiting class is ranked in the Top 10 in the country- they get talent despite all of the obstacles they face. I do think ND was premature in firing Ty, but I also think he did not do a great job over those first 3 years. Giving him a chance to work with an upperclassman as his QB seems only fair. But his offense showed a lack of innovation, the recruiting classes were getting worse according to most rankings, and they thought they could get the guy who would turn it all around. In the end, they were wrong, but this belief that Ty was clearly on the right track is simply not supported by empirical evidence. C'mon Jack. Julius Jones has had one good game and on top of that is a success story for Ty Wilingham as I've stated earlier. The kid let his teammates down by not handling his academic responsibilites and Ty made him work his way back on the field. When you are building a program and trying to teach your kids how to do things the right way, that is how you handle it. David Givens is a solid-NFL receiver but could it be that he is a product of a good Patriots offensive system. He is no Mike Wiliams, Reggie Bush, Braylon Edwards, Phillip Rivers, Larry Fitzgerald type player. That combined with the fact that he only had one year under Willingham where they didn't have anyone who could throw worht a damn on the roster (Holliday was a joke). The players I listed played on teams that ND went up against and that's only the offensive players I could think of off the top of my head. Once I start listing the other players who were either 1st round picks (early ones I might add) or will be first round picks, you'll see how laughable it is for people to think that ND has had anything but average talent.
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HOYAPLAYA
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Dec 4, 2004 16:12:26 GMT -5
IT'S STARTED ALREADY. PLEASE SEE MY EARLIER POSTS REGARDING THE 3 TYPES OF CANDIDATES THAT ND WILL HAVE TO TURN TO. APPARENTLY, MARIUCCI IS A SMART MAN. HE'D RATHER STEW IN MOTOWN, THEN BE SET UP FOR FAILURE IN SOUTH BEND.
Mariucci says he was contacted by Notre Dame, but is staying with Lions
December 4, 2004 DETROIT (AP) -- Lions coach Steve Mariucci said Saturday he was contacted by Notre Dame about its coaching vacancy but decided to stay with Detroit.
``I am absolutely 100 percent committed to the Detroit Lions and my desire to build the Lions into a winner,'' Mariucci said in a statement.
Notre Dame athletic director Kevin White, who was in Ann Arbor for Saturday's Notre Dame-Michigan men's basketball game, declined comment.
Mariucci is a former head coach at California.
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One
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by One on Dec 4, 2004 20:18:51 GMT -5
There's a reason ND has more players in the NFL than any other school - they get talent. There's also a reason they dont have any stars at the skill positions at the college level - they havent had an offense that throws the ball downfield in years. No ND coaching staff has done anything to develop the talent they get in years. No, they dont have USC talen right now, but they have the talent to be on the same field as them. The first half showed that. The second half showed their coaching staff is incapable of making the appropriate adjustments to compete. The merits (having nothing to do with race) of Ty's firing can be argued, but it wasn't uncalled for based on his performance, or lack thereof.
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HOYAPLAYA
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Dec 5, 2004 7:35:40 GMT -5
There's a reason ND has more players in the NFL than any other school - they get talent. There's also a reason they dont have any stars at the skill positions at the college level - they havent had an offense that throws the ball downfield in years. No ND coaching staff has done anything to develop the talent they get in years. No, they dont have USC talen right now, but they have the talent to be on the same field as them. The first half showed that. The second half showed their coaching staff is incapable of making the appropriate adjustments to compete. The merits (having nothing to do with race) of Ty's firing can be argued, but it wasn't uncalled for based on his performance, or lack thereof. I'm starting to wonder if some of you actually believe what they post. Talking about ND having more players in the NFl is on par with talking about how many players G-town has in the NBA right now. Most of their NFL talent (and I'm not talking about practice squad players) have been in the league for years. If you honestly believe that ND's talent is on par or even close to that of USC, then you are kidding yourself. It's not close when you look at the starters and it gets even more embarrassing when you look at the reserves. Also, did Ty all of a sudden forget how to make half time adjustments. We are talking about a two-time Pac 10 coach of the year and a national coach of the year just two seasons ago. Did he have some head trauma over the last two years that caused him to lose this half-time adjustment skill that you talk about. No, your statement is ridiculous. Also take it from me who actually played college football. Halftime adjustments are made by coordinators and not head coaches. Personnel half time adjustments are made by head coaches.
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Dec 5, 2004 9:14:27 GMT -5
All right...I'll be the one to say it. WHy is everyone so up in arms about Willingham or any of these guys getting fired? I'm baffled. Big deal. The hint of racism...
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Dec 5, 2004 10:21:44 GMT -5
For those looking for it behind every corner, sure. Based on the record, I'd say the firing was 50/50 no matter the coach, and it became inevitable when ND thought it could land the "next big thing" in Meyer.
My same ND fan friends who were thrilled with the Willingham hiring were also happy with the firing, and skin color had nothing to do with either reaction. I do think they're ridiculous with the quick trigger, and think they will keep doing it until they get their miracle, but really, looking at the huge losses, I can't say proponents of the firing didn't have some good reasons. Maybe they are crazy to think they can recruit the very top kids again (also debatable, and I think the answer to that one is a resounding "no"), but that makes them delusional, not racist. But then again, some people just thrive on that word, since it's one of those "moral ground" things. All I know is that when Esherick's teams went from losing close to getting blown out, the roof caved in (and the arguments -- can't develop talent, not a great recruiter, no adjustments at halftime -- are very similar to those lodged against TW at Notre Dame). Same applies here, except with a booster base that's much more trigger happy and an administration much more nervous about losing lucrative TV contracts.
Ty will land on his feet in Division I again, in a place where there is more patience, which will make him a better fit, because he'll get an entire cycle to get kids into his own system. Sometimes coaches and schools just don't mesh, and in those cases, it's best they part ways.
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Dec 5, 2004 10:52:21 GMT -5
Ty will land on his feet in Division I again, in a place where there is more patience, which will make him a better fit, because he'll get an entire cycle to get kids into his own system. Sometimes coaches and schools just don't mesh, and in those cases, it's best they part ways. Ty didn't even have a chance to graduate a single class... Personally, I never thought Notre Dame wanted him there in the first place...they just got a lot of pressure from the outside to hire him... I think the Black Coaches Association was wrong in doing that...all that little maneuver did was help perpetuate the lie to Black people that in order to prove your worth, it has to be validated by people that aren't Black...I think Nolan Richardson said it best back in '94..."You mean to tell me that a Black kid can play for Florida State and be good enough to win the Heisman but he'll never be good enough to coach the team?" But I hope ALL the Black recruits were watching and paying attention to what happened to Coach Willingham...this isn't the first time it has happened, and it won't be the last...If a school will treat a Black coach badly, they'll have no problem treating a Black player badly... You can scream wins and losses all you want...look at Bob Davies' record and then look at Ty's... No need to go looking for racism...it's all around us... Walk a mile in my shoes...then tell me that there's no racism and that Black people get a fair-shake at every turn... But I agree with you...Black people need to stop complaining and start doing something...stop sending these kids to schools that mistreat our kids and coaches...They may hate Black people...but let them hate Black people while you're playing ball for someone else...stick to the ones that will give you the opportunity that everyone else is expecting...
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Dec 5, 2004 11:49:53 GMT -5
stop sending these kids to schools that mistreat our kids and coaches...They may hate Black people...but let them hate Black people while you're playing ball for someone else...stick to the ones that will give you the opportunity that everyone else is expecting... Wow. This is ridiculously over the top. Willingham did not do a good job at ND. That cannot be questioned. If you want to argue whether he was below average or just mediocre, knock yourself out. But ND saw what happened with Davie - he wasn't doing a good job in year 3 and was no better in year 5. Why waste 2 more years again? Willingham was not treated differently than coaches at other schools or in other sports. It's a cutthroat business. As you said, there is racism everywhere . . but not here. There is enough already that we don't need people inventing it.
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HOYAPLAYA
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Dec 5, 2004 13:05:14 GMT -5
Listen, the racism argument is better served for coaches that haven't been afforded the opportunity (see Charlie Strong-Def. Coordinator for Florida Gators or Miami's Def. Coordinator). This is about not giving Willingham, a proven coach, the opportunity to develop his players under his system and instead firing for not being able to win consistently with a team of underclassmen that he recruited and upperclassmen that were recruited by the guy who was fired for not getting the job done. Did anyone notice that alot of the team's best skill position players were freshman and sopohomores this year (Brady Quinn, Darius Walker, Rhema McKnight, Maurice Stovall) and they have a decent amount of people coming back to at least improve to an 8 or 9 win team. A coach who has proven the ability to turn a program around deserved better than what Ty got considering the squad that he had returning. He was getting there but I'm afraid he would have never gotten to where the ND athletic officials and boosters wanted him to get, because their view on ND's place in college footbal is a fairy tale. You can't exclude the group of individuals that makes up the most talented group of players from being eligible for your program and think that you can contend for the national championship.
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C86
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Post by C86 on Dec 5, 2004 13:40:12 GMT -5
The Chicago Tribune reported this morning that Willingham's firing was the result of the actions of some key trustees who were disappointed with his performance and who were convinced that they could hire Urban Meyer. On the second point, their intelligence was obviously faulty. The Tribune has a full-time beat writer assigned to Notre Dame sports, so what it says on this issue likely is the result of some good information.
I don't know if anyone answered DFW's question about Frank Leahy, so I will. Leahy came to ND from Boston College.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Dec 5, 2004 16:24:27 GMT -5
You can't exclude the group of individuals that makes up the most talented group of players from being eligible for your program and think that you can contend for the national championship. At least, not on a consistent basis. It is tough enough to succeed in basketball and still enforce really high academic standards. but football?? These guys want to compete with USC, OK, Miami, FSU, Auburn, etc. Every year. That isn't going to happen with the academic standards ND currently has, which are more stringent than they were under Holtz (last national championshio). Particularly when you add in one of the toughest schedules in the nation most years. My take on the Willingham firing was that it was unfair not to give a proven coach -- one who was abiding by those academic standards and raising the level of classroom performance and graduation rates -- a longer chance to show what he can do. But I find it hard to say that racism was an issue since this is the same school and Admin that hired him in the first place. I think ND is in big trouble now. They have been passed over by their top choices last time, and again this time (Urban Meyer, Steve Mariucci, Bob Stoops). And they just demonstrated to everyone that they are not going to give a proven coach much time to get the job done. Seeing how they just treated Willingham, it is little wonder why Meyer opted for UF, where he has a great team already assembled, much freer rein to recruit, lots of money in his contract??? ND is going to have a very tough time getting back to where they think they belong.
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HOYAPLAYA
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Dec 5, 2004 17:16:23 GMT -5
Sir Saxa, very well said as that is what I and others have been trying to say since the beginning of the post while others are attempting to use race as the main reason people are upset. "Real" sports fans can care less about the race of the coach, the players, the student body or the alumni/fans. They like to see the game played the right way and their teams be successful. The "Right Way" for a college program is completely different from the "Right Way" for a professional organization. ND apparently has lost sight of what is the "Right Way" to run a program. I can assure you the same boosters/alumni who were in an uproar and wanted to see Willingham let go are the same ones who would be in an uproar if ND lowered their academic standars for athletes. They think ND is something that it is not and won't be until the program returns to being run by the people who are paid to do their job in the athletic administration. I don't see that happening any time soon so I feel sorry for their fans as there will be a lot of 4-7, 5-6, 6-5 and 7-4 seasons ahead.
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Dec 5, 2004 18:23:35 GMT -5
My take on the Willingham firing was that it was unfair not to give a proven coach -- one who was abiding by those academic standards and raising the level of classroom performance and graduation rates -- a longer chance to show what he can do. But I find it hard to say that racism was an issue since this is the same school and Admin that hired him in the first place. If it looks like a duck...walks like a duck...quacks like a duck...I have to call it a duck... Like I said, they never wanted Willingham there, but they would have come off like ridiculous(sp) racists if they didn't hire him because he was the most qualified for the job... I'm not shocked that he got fired...if he would have had a losing season his first year, they would have fired him then... What I find so interesting is that so many white folks act like we haven't seen this type of treatment before...like in 30 years, white folks can clean the slate, and everybody is on an even playing field now...and when we call you out on it, "You're just playing the race card!" or "You're being hypersensitive about this situation." are the responses that I'll get... I personally don't care that he was fired...I DO care that people will continue to lie and say that race has nothing to do with this situation... Just hope Black people finally wake-up and realize this is the real world....and no matter how much they claim they like you, you better watch your back...
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FormerHoya
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Post by FormerHoya on Dec 5, 2004 21:52:48 GMT -5
Dear AggyPryd,
Please watch a tape of all of Coach Willingham's games over the last three years. Under Ty there has been no evidence of progress. His first season was a fluke, wins coming in ways that can only be described as lucky; akin the the Chicago Bears 13-3 season a few years ago. If Ty's and Davie's positions had been reversed Ty would have stayed 5 years and Davie 3. Notre Dame did the right thing by pulling the trigger when it did; they were trying to stem the tide of mediocrity(sp) that was(is) threatening to carry Notre Dame football to the shores of irrelevance where Georgetown basketball now resides. The biggest difference is that a basketball program is easier to turn around, and Georgetown hired the right guy. Notre Dame has once again jagged up the process and is now in a far worse place than they would have been had they not fired Willingham in the first place.
Aggypryd, it would be crazy to say that there is no racism. Very clearly the whole world is rife with it. Major college sports are motivated by many factors, but the kind of overt racism that would have been necessary to accomplish what you claim happened here is not one of them. Pride played a factor, prestige played a factor, but most importantly, money played a factor. Any coach: black, white, red, or yellow who was leading Notre Dame on this path into decline, and hence away from the paydays on which it so relied would have, and should have been fired.
Notre Dame football is in serious trouble right now, but race had nothing to do with it.
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Dec 6, 2004 6:14:43 GMT -5
Dear AggyPryd, Aggypryd, it would be crazy to say that there is no racism. Very clearly the whole world is rife with it. Major college sports are motivated by many factors, but the kind of overt racism that would have been necessary to accomplish what you claim happened here is not one of them. Pride played a factor, prestige played a factor, but most importantly, money played a factor. Any coach: black, white, red, or yellow who was leading Notre Dame on this path into decline, and hence away from the paydays on which it so relied would have, and should have been fired. Notre Dame football is in serious trouble right now, but race had nothing to do with it. are you saying there is no racism in college athletics?
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Dec 6, 2004 8:05:59 GMT -5
"stop sending these kids to schools that mistreat our kids and coaches...They may hate Black people...but let them hate Black people while you're playing ball for someone else...stick to the ones that will give you the opportunity that everyone else is expecting... " Wow. This is ridiculously over the top. Why would you send your child to a school that mistreats people that look like you? You've noticed that Penn State is having problems with racism on and around their campus and they've lost a lot of recruits behind it... Why would I be stupid and send my child to an environment like that? Why would that be over the top?
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FormerHoya
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Post by FormerHoya on Dec 6, 2004 8:46:34 GMT -5
I never said that there was no racism in college sports. What I did say was that the type of institutional racism that you are suggesting occured here not only didn't happen, but doesn't even make sense. Your argument, as I see it, is that Notre Dame (or at least their athletic department) hates black people, but that they were somehow shamed into hiring Ty. They then hoped that he would fail so that they could fire him, thus vindicating their racist beliefs.
Read that over again if it didn't make sense to you either.
The slippery slope here (I just read the topic again) is that schools will see what has happened at Notre Dame (ie. firing an underperforming coach who happened to be black) and decide that they would rather hire a white coach that they can dismiss whenever they desire than to take a chance at this type of negative publicity.
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