SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,744
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 3, 2004 12:35:36 GMT -5
Solich had a ton of defenders. We had a huge thread on it with much the same discussion.
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HOYAPLAYA
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
IT'S TIME FOR A RUNNNNNNN!!!!!!
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Dec 3, 2004 12:40:15 GMT -5
I'm not saying its wrong for race to play a role. Race is obviously a concern in hiring practices, but it is highly disengenous to pretend that it isn't the main factor in the outrage a lot of people (almost none of which are ND fans, I might add) are expressing. People should just come out and say why they really have a problem with this. If Willingham was a 50 year old white guy no one would be complaining. This isn't about his performance - any ND fan will tell you it wasn't very good. ND learned their lesson when Davie wasn't up to par in year 3 or year 5; not to waste 2 more years this time. Solich, who had a lot more sucess, had half the defenders. How wrong you are? Solich was defended by just about everyone outside of Nebraska. Myself included even though I hate Nebraska. It's the way the game and the coaches are being treated that's bothering me. Then the media and fans will have the nerve to talk about players who want to leave early or will look to transfer after a coach is canned. Most college football recruits are going to be attending one college or another and narrow down their choice to the programs (academic included) that they want to attend. The coaching staff is a big part in that decision and most athletes spend more time in meeting sessions, on the practice field and in the weight room with their team than they do on campus. Let me also add that I hope Ole Miss never wins another game because their coach should not have gotten canned after this season also. Do you want to discuss that one?
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Dec 3, 2004 12:55:18 GMT -5
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hoyaboy1
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Dec 3, 2004 13:06:37 GMT -5
I certainly can't speak for everyone, and race may not be playing a factor for you. But to deny that it is a major reason that this story is blowing up is naive.
I may, of course, have completely misjudged this situation, but I don't think so. An impartial look at Ty's performance shows a guy who wasn't bringing ND back to the top. Maybe they won't get there, but lots of guys can be average. They want great.
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 3, 2004 13:18:19 GMT -5
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Bahstin
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Post by Bahstin on Dec 3, 2004 13:44:57 GMT -5
Wow. Now ND has to go somewhere and say, "We want you to coach our team. You have always been our # 2 guy."
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Jack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Jack on Dec 3, 2004 13:50:50 GMT -5
George O'Leary may be available.
ND people are apoplectic about this, and accusations are flying all over the place about arrogance and lowballing Meyer. The take-home message is: ND administrators and alumni are blind to the structural issues at their university and in college football at large. They were blind when they fired Willingham and they were blind when they assumed Meyer would come running to South Bend.
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Boz
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
123 Fireballs!
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Post by Boz on Dec 3, 2004 13:52:45 GMT -5
Dick Vitale offered his services on the air during one of the ACC-Big Ten games.
Kind of thought it was a joke at the time. . .
I can't help it. This is really too good to be true.
"Umm, listen Ty. Some things were said, some press conferences were held. But let me just ask you this one question: Have you ACTUALLY packed your bags yet? 'Cause we got this craaazzzy idea. You're gonna love this. . ."
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HOYAPLAYA
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
IT'S TIME FOR A RUNNNNNNN!!!!!!
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Dec 3, 2004 14:09:57 GMT -5
This is so sweet!! Even though I think Ron Zook got shafted down in Florida (although he should've been fired based on the incident with the fraternity), I think Urban is a very smart man.
At this point in his career, he can either continue his career moving forward or he can take a step back.
Think we can get some bacon and toast for that egg that's on the Notre Dame AD's face.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Dec 3, 2004 14:22:01 GMT -5
A few points:
1) Notre Dame clearly has learned nothing from the O'Leary meltdown - now the next coach has to come to a program that is in disarray as the ND's clear number 2 choice and show results immediately. That doesn't really seem like a recipe for disaster now does it?
2) Ty Willingham is the best coach left on the market - ESPN is reporting that Bob Stoops will be made the best paid coach in College Football again to keep him from leaving for either Notre Dame, the Cleveland Browns, or Florida (although that seems to be Urban's now). Who is the best coach out there that ND can get? They have established in the past that they need someone with a squeaky clean reputation and that can win games immediately with limited resources - the only coach that has a track record with doing that is Ty Willingham who did a great job in the PAC 10 with Stanford.
3) Notre Dame doesn't know how far they have fallen. Urban Myer has a clause in his contract allowing him to go to ND without a buyout and he chose Florida instead despite his clear cut desire to coach at Notre Dame. When people who would clearly be a great fit for a job decide not to apply that shows some serious problems with the employer. In this case Notre Dame doesn't have a conference, has an incredibly hard schedule, fired a coach 3 years into his contract (during a bowl season), has academic restrictions on its recruiting, has limited financial capacity, and a declining tradition. Florida on the other hand has lots of talent (as a quarterback coach would you rather work with Chris Leak or Quinn?), a strong tradition, is closer to blue chip recruiting areas (Texas and Florida), has no restrictions on recruiting, has a conference schedule, and has incredible financial resources. Notre Dame needs to seriously re-examine itself as a program before it thinks it can compete with Florida (as well as the USC's and Oklahoma's of NCAA Football) for talented coaches.
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MCIGuy
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Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 3, 2004 15:18:49 GMT -5
I certainly can't speak for everyone, and race may not be playing a factor for you. But to deny that it is a major reason that this story is blowing up is naive. If black coaches were actually given fair treatment and given much more opportunities to run football programs, so much so that their hirings and firings were commonplace, then this would not be that big of issue. But since blacks aren't given those same opportunities, since the number of black coaches who head major D1 football programs can be counted on one hand with fingers to spare then of course race is going to play a factor in the outrage over Ty's firing. Its an issue because of the so obvious barriers that African American coaches still face just to get a damn interview, let alone a job as head coach. So when you see a double standard of Willingham being fired and not getting the years that previous white coaches at ND have then that just adds even more fuel to the fire. You seem to take exception of race playing an issue for thetopic being so hotly debated but do you take that same exception to race playing a factor in who gets the jobs and who doesn't get the opportunities? Personally when Willingham took the job I called him a fool. Why leave a great university like Stanford where the people are admirable and fair and give black head coaches chances without blinking an eye for a school like Notre Dame where black coaches are scarce if they exist even at all? A place where much of the alumni base and the wannabe-alumni fans who live in the surrounding areas aren't comfortable with a black man running their football program! Ty should have stayed at the more progressive Stanford and rewarded them for their trust and faith in him rather than run to ND who only saw him as their third option at best in terms of coaching candidates. Screw Notre Dame. Last time I rooted for the university's football program was when Lou was patrolling the sidelines.
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SaxaCD
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by SaxaCD on Dec 3, 2004 15:33:49 GMT -5
I don't believe that at all, MCI -- as far as the ND fans I know, the only thing that matters is winning, to a fanatical point that these days they don't have patience with ANYBODY who's not a miracle worker and restore the "glory days". The same thing will happen to the next coach, regardless of skin color, if he doesn't win right away, because right now they are in panic mode.
If Meyer does go to Florida, it would be too funny -- who do they Irish go for now, Zook? LOL
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hoyaboy1
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Dec 3, 2004 15:36:18 GMT -5
I never said I took exception to race playing a role, although people should evaluate Ty's performance as a coach, not as a black coach.
What I really took exception to was people NOT saying that race was a major issue for them when it really was.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 3, 2004 16:18:15 GMT -5
What I really took exception to was people NOT saying that race was a major issue for them when it really was. If George O'Leary had this kind of record after three yards and the ND program was in the position it is in today, would he be gone too? Absolutely.
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Post by FromTheBeginning on Dec 3, 2004 17:40:22 GMT -5
Now the fun starts - it appears the Utah coach Urban Meyer will sign with Florida instead of ND. If in fact, ND fired Willingham so as not to miss out on Meyer, they are now in the position of trying to find a coach instead of hiring one. It was reported that Meyer had a "free out" clause in his contract for ND, so it's costing someone extra $$$ if Florida has to deal with a buyout. Now well see how many guys will turn down ND before they get a hire.
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the_way
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The Illest
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Post by the_way on Dec 4, 2004 11:02:44 GMT -5
Tyrone Willingham was fired because he was black. He knows it, Notre Dame knows it, and the world knows it. If it isn't racism, then why is everybody so gung ho about saying its is W-L record all the time. They are trying to hide the facts. The fact is Notre Dame alumni, and students didn't like Ty Willingham to begin with. He didn't smile and shuck and jive all the time. He was forthwright, was his own person, and was building a winner with his recruiting classes. They have talent, they are just young. I'm glad they fired him for his sake: why should he coach at a place where isn't wanted, and more importantly, isn't respected. Shame on Notre Dame, and egg on their face.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 4, 2004 11:50:47 GMT -5
I think Willingham is a solid coach and he will not be unemployed for long.
My earlier point remains valid. If anyone--be it O'Leary, Holtz, Faust, Parseghian, whomever--was in Willingham's position with a track record over the past three years exhibiting ND's increasingly level of non-competitiveness againt major college teams, they would be caught up in the same wave of change that the Domers are demanding. For all those who point to Gerry Faust and say how bad he was, remember that in the three years prior to his ouster the Irish were 6-4-1, 7-5, and 7-5, and that was not good enough.
Since starting the 7-0 in 2002, Willingham is 14-15.
Also, the Domers like to remind people of what their best coaches have done in their third year of coaching:
1988: Lou Holtz's third year, national title. 1977: Dan Devine's third year, national title. 1966: Ara's third year, national title (thanks to the tie) 1943: Frank Leahy's third year, national title.
(Trivia Question: What school did Frank Leahy get his start at, where he was in line to become head coach but left feeling the school wasn't committing enough to its sports program?)
It's not the person, it's the outcome. Put another way, the ND people are tired of being just like any "other" team. Whether a new coach fundamentally changes that argument is an open question.
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NJHoya95
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Post by NJHoya95 on Dec 4, 2004 12:21:15 GMT -5
The powers that be at Notre Dame are deluding themselves. You cannot compare the level of talent that Ty has versus the talent that Holtz inherited in the mid 80s. People never even mention that Ty was playing with a freshman QB last year (who was only a sophmore this year). What do you expect when all of your skill guys are underclassmen? ND's offense next year will likely be one of the best in the country. Under no cicrumstances can you judge a coach's ability when his first recruiting class are only sophs. The difference with ND today and the Holtz era in recruting is profound but the admin never allowed Ty the chance to use his guys. My wife is a double domer so I hear about this stuff all the time. For the first time since I can remember we received an application to submit for bowl tickets. That is progress. Sure it is the Insight bowl, but the Irish looked like they were getting better. I compared them to our beloved Hoyas. I told my wife that for the last 5 years the Hoyas never surprised me. If we played a higher ranked team, they beat us. It didnt matter that it was home or away. Ty's ND teams had some suprisingly good wins. With ND, they had two great wins this year home against Michigan and at Tennessee. Very positive results. There is a level of arrogance to ND fans. They think they should win merely because they wear that gold helmet.
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One
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Post by One on Dec 4, 2004 14:05:49 GMT -5
The wins against Michigan and Tennessee prove there is enough talent at ND to beat, or at least compete with, top teams. The losses to Pitt, BC and BYU, teams with less talent, show a lack of coaching ability. Two of those losses were at home. Ty's a great guy and a pretty good coach and will probably get another job very, very soon. He simply isnt a great coach. See his up and down record at Stanford for further evidence. And not all of his skill position players were underclassmen. Maurice Stovall, Rhema McKnight, Ryan Grant, Anthony Fasano are all upper classmen. Stovall was the #2 receiver coming out of high school, a guy every team in the country wanted. I cant think of one important play he has made since his catch freshman year against Michigan St. He simply hasnt improved in three years. The lack of improvement of ND players from freshman year through senior year has been a problem under both Davie and Ty. It's poor coaching
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NJHoya95
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by NJHoya95 on Dec 4, 2004 14:30:01 GMT -5
1- What I meant about the upperclassmen thing is that Fasano, McKnight, Stovall are all back next year. They should be fantastic. My point is that in the late 90s the irish played Ohio State twice (lost them both), played Nebraska and lost twice. The irish should have won both the Pitt and BC games. If they make a stupid xp, they probably beat bc. If not for the pass interference calls at the end of the game, they probably beat Pitt. An 8-3 Irish team still has Ty as their coach. Today they have egg on their face, playing a bowl with an interim coach and LOI signing day is a month away.
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