Georgetown - Notre Dame 11/16/2024 Discussion

[SFHoya99]

Nov 13, 2024 12:05:07 GMT -5 bostonfan said:

Nov 13, 2024 9:28:48 GMT -5 hoyariv71 said:

I think the game has changed, PG are scorers now. To be a really good team, Mack needs to be a leader run offense and reduce turnovers. A really good passing team will have assists spread out, Sorber is a good passer.

While I don't think Mack has been great in the first few games, I do think he has given me hope that the Hoyas do have a legit Big East PG to lead the team. Just with the eye test, he clearly has the speed/quickness and handles to be a good PG. 


Many people on this board were concerned that it might take a little while for him to adjust to the different level of play between the Ivy and the Big East, and I think that is probably part of what we are seeing. I think he is still getting used to playing with a new group of teammates and trying to determine what his best role will be on this team. I don't have any problem with him looking for his shot sometimes and being an offensive threat that the other team needs to game plan for, and I think as the season evolves he will settle into more of a distributor role and look for his own shot a little less. The biggest improvement I am hoping for is his impact on the team's transition game, which for whatever reason is not very good right now. They have the athletes to be a good transition team and should get more easy baskets from that part of the game than they have so far.


He is absolutely an upgrade from the options at point guard last year. 

I don't mind Mack shooting at all.

But I want him to start playing more two man game with the bigs. He's not using his screens / picks. He's trying to do everything solo. When he does integrate, he's got a good passing vision. But far too often he's clearing out, and that simply makes everything harder. We've got great rolling bigs ... when we are running dry, that's the well we should be going to. Not a play with one person.

[78HOYA78]

I know it's only two games but these are ND numbers so far:

61-120 .508 (FG)

16-43 .372 (3s)

[78HOYA78]

These are our numbers so far:

58 - 121 (FG) .480
11 - 42 (3s) .262

[calhoya]

Nov 13, 2024 15:24:22 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Nov 13, 2024 12:05:07 GMT -5 bostonfan said:

While I don't think Mack has been great in the first few games, I do think he has given me hope that the Hoyas do have a legit Big East PG to lead the team. Just with the eye test, he clearly has the speed/quickness and handles to be a good PG. 


Many people on this board were concerned that it might take a little while for him to adjust to the different level of play between the Ivy and the Big East, and I think that is probably part of what we are seeing. I think he is still getting used to playing with a new group of teammates and trying to determine what his best role will be on this team. I don't have any problem with him looking for his shot sometimes and being an offensive threat that the other team needs to game plan for, and I think as the season evolves he will settle into more of a distributor role and look for his own shot a little less. The biggest improvement I am hoping for is his impact on the team's transition game, which for whatever reason is not very good right now. They have the athletes to be a good transition team and should get more easy baskets from that part of the game than they have so far.


He is absolutely an upgrade from the options at point guard last year. 

I don't mind Mack shooting at all.

But I want him to start playing more two man game with the bigs. He's not using his screens / picks. He's trying to do everything solo. When he does integrate, he's got a good passing vision. But far too often he's clearing out, and that simply makes everything harder. We've got great rolling bigs ... when we are running dry, that's the well we should be going to. Not a play with one person.

I think that Mack offers this team a significant upgrade at the PG position in terms of his skill set, and expect that on offense he will settle down and play within the flow of the game. What I am more concerned with is his defense. Even when he (and Epps) is playing focused and aggressive defense and not giving up the open shots, the size limitations seem certain to be a problem against teams with bigger guards. I felt much better about the defense when Mulready, Burks and Williams were in the game or combined with one of the two starters. Notre Dame has a couple of 6' 4" guards along with a smaller guard and it will be interesting to see how our starting guards handle their defensive assignments.

[SFHoya99]

Nov 13, 2024 16:35:07 GMT -5 calhoya said:

I think that Mack offers this team a significant upgrade at the PG position in terms of his skill set, and expect that on offense he will settle down and play within the flow of the game. What I am more concerned with is his defense. Even when he (and Epps) is playing focused and aggressive defense and not giving up the open shots, the size limitations seem certain to be a problem against teams with bigger guards. I felt much better about the defense when Mulready, Burks and Williams were in the game or combined with one of the two starters. Notre Dame has a couple of 6' 4" guards along with a smaller guard and it will be interesting to see how our starting guards handle their defensive assignments.

So far I don't know if Mack offers any real upgrade to Epps. His biggest upgrade potential is to Brumbaugh and Bacote, but he hasn't been so far. It's when Epps isn't on the floor that he's going to bring the most value. And I think that's even when they start to play well together. We just had no creators other than Epps last year.

Defensively, I get the concern. I am a bit skeptical that we're playing enough guards that have that kind of jumper. I think we tend to attribute every made shot over them to being short and assume a taller guy would have bothered it. It's too bad we don't have the advanced metrics to really see aggregate stats.

That said, yeah, I expect we actually see a lot of Curtis Williams and Mulready this year in defensive sets. Same with Burks down low, actually. I am not particularly optimistic that Williams or Burks actually find offense, but if Mulready or perhaps McKenna can bring size, athleticism and a bit more offense, there's some more upside. But you can still play Mack and Epps thirty minutes a game and have those guys on for 20 minutes.

[thedragon]

Nov 13, 2024 18:19:07 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Nov 13, 2024 16:35:07 GMT -5 calhoya said:

I think that Mack offers this team a significant upgrade at the PG position in terms of his skill set, and expect that on offense he will settle down and play within the flow of the game. What I am more concerned with is his defense. Even when he (and Epps) is playing focused and aggressive defense and not giving up the open shots, the size limitations seem certain to be a problem against teams with bigger guards. I felt much better about the defense when Mulready, Burks and Williams were in the game or combined with one of the two starters. Notre Dame has a couple of 6' 4" guards along with a smaller guard and it will be interesting to see how our starting guards handle their defensive assignments.

So far I don't know if Mack offers any real upgrade to Epps. His biggest upgrade potential is to Brumbaugh and Bacote, but he hasn't been so far. It's when Epps isn't on the floor that he's going to bring the most value. And I think that's even when they start to play well together. We just had no creators other than Epps last year.

Defensively, I get the concern. I am a bit skeptical that we're playing enough guards that have that kind of jumper. I think we tend to attribute every made shot over them to being short and assume a taller guy would have bothered it. It's too bad we don't have the advanced metrics to really see aggregate stats.

That said, yeah, I expect we actually see a lot of Curtis Williams and Mulready this year in defensive sets. Same with Burks down low, actually. I am not particularly optimistic that Williams or Burks actually find offense, but if Mulready or perhaps McKenna can bring size, athleticism and a bit more offense, there's some more upside. But you can still play Mack and Epps thirty minutes a game and have those guys on for 20 minutes.

Mack playing sh*tty for two games was better than Rowan or Cam from last year by a country mile. So far this year Mack has a 2.44 OBPR per Evan Miya. Last season Rowan had a 0.45. Cam had 0.67.

[smokeyjack]

Nov 13, 2024 20:00:59 GMT -5 thedragon said:

Nov 13, 2024 18:19:07 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

So far I don't know if Mack offers any real upgrade to Epps. His biggest upgrade potential is to Brumbaugh and Bacote, but he hasn't been so far. It's when Epps isn't on the floor that he's going to bring the most value. And I think that's even when they start to play well together. We just had no creators other than Epps last year.

Defensively, I get the concern. I am a bit skeptical that we're playing enough guards that have that kind of jumper. I think we tend to attribute every made shot over them to being short and assume a taller guy would have bothered it. It's too bad we don't have the advanced metrics to really see aggregate stats.

That said, yeah, I expect we actually see a lot of Curtis Williams and Mulready this year in defensive sets. Same with Burks down low, actually. I am not particularly optimistic that Williams or Burks actually find offense, but if Mulready or perhaps McKenna can bring size, athleticism and a bit more offense, there's some more upside. But you can still play Mack and Epps thirty minutes a game and have those guys on for 20 minutes.

Mack playing sh*tty for two games was better than Rowan or Cam from last year by a country mile. So far this year Mack has a 2.44 OBPR per Evan Miya. Last season Rowan had a 0.45. Cam had 0.67.

Fair point. Even Transitioning Mack is worlds better than last season's other primary ball-handling options. I hope he becomes more of a facilitator, but if he and Epps simply become a ham and egg show depending on who's hot on the night, maybe McKenna or Mulready can pick up the slack defensively. Color me very skeptical on Williams' offensive upside. If you can't solidly check 2 of 4 boxes (slash, facilitate, shoot, defend), chew bench. 

[jwp91]

Nov 13, 2024 20:00:59 GMT -5 thedragon said:

Nov 13, 2024 18:19:07 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

So far I don't know if Mack offers any real upgrade to Epps. His biggest upgrade potential is to Brumbaugh and Bacote, but he hasn't been so far. It's when Epps isn't on the floor that he's going to bring the most value. And I think that's even when they start to play well together. We just had no creators other than Epps last year.

Defensively, I get the concern. I am a bit skeptical that we're playing enough guards that have that kind of jumper. I think we tend to attribute every made shot over them to being short and assume a taller guy would have bothered it. It's too bad we don't have the advanced metrics to really see aggregate stats.

That said, yeah, I expect we actually see a lot of Curtis Williams and Mulready this year in defensive sets. Same with Burks down low, actually. I am not particularly optimistic that Williams or Burks actually find offense, but if Mulready or perhaps McKenna can bring size, athleticism and a bit more offense, there's some more upside. But you can still play Mack and Epps thirty minutes a game and have those guys on for 20 minutes.

Mack playing sh*tty for two games was better than Rowan or Cam from last year by a country mile. So far this year Mack has a 2.44 OBPR per Evan Miya. Last season Rowan had a 0.45. Cam had 0.67.

I don't trust Evan's OBPR right now. His model has the Hoyas the worst team in the conference right now even after the other team's losses.

All I will say is the Hoyas with Rowan but without Epps beat Notre Dame last year. I think Mack can be a huge contributor this season, but for me he is not there yet.

[prhoya]

Nov 13, 2024 16:35:07 GMT -5 calhoya said:

What I am more concerned with is his defense. Even when he (and Epps) is playing focused and aggressive defense and not giving up the open shots, the size limitations seem certain to be a problem against teams with bigger guards. I felt much better about the defense when Mulready, Burks and Williams were in the game or combined with one of the two starters. Notre Dame has a couple of 6' 4" guards along with a smaller guard and it will be interesting to see how our starting guards handle their defensive assignments.

I agree with most of your HT posts, except that you consistently express concern with guard size. I consistently try to show that in the college game, guard size is not that big a deal and that what we’ve seen throughout the years, maybe with one or two exceptions, is that championship teams consistently have small guards starting or playing big minutes.

I know that you’ve followed the team throughout the years and must have seen how under-6’ guards have killed us time and again. Now, you’re worried about ND’s 6’4” vs. our two smaller guards. We had a 6’4” guard last year and look how that turned out for our defense.

If you saw our first game this season, Lehigh’s 5’11” (if that) #0 absolutely killed us from the perimeter by going 5 of 10 3s, and 6’2 Epps and 6’2” Mack had 3 inches on him. Also, the same 5’11 guard grabbed 8 rebounds vs. GU’s tall frontcourt???!!!

No, it’s not about size for college guards. It’s about cojones, or Cooley’s 3 “E’s”. Of course, ceteris paribus, taller is better. But, 6’2” guards are pretty standard in college basketball.

[calhoya]

Nov 14, 2024 0:48:11 GMT -5 prhoya said:

Nov 13, 2024 16:35:07 GMT -5 calhoya said:

What I am more concerned with is his defense. Even when he (and Epps) is playing focused and aggressive defense and not giving up the open shots, the size limitations seem certain to be a problem against teams with bigger guards. I felt much better about the defense when Mulready, Burks and Williams were in the game or combined with one of the two starters. Notre Dame has a couple of 6' 4" guards along with a smaller guard and it will be interesting to see how our starting guards handle their defensive assignments.

I agree with most of your HT posts, except that you consistently express concern with guard size. I consistently try to show that in the college game, guard size is not that big a deal and that what we’ve seen throughout the years, maybe with one or two exceptions, is that championship teams consistently have small guards starting or playing big minutes.

I know that you’ve followed the team throughout the years and must have seen how under-6’ guards have killed us time and again. Now, you’re worried about ND’s 6’4” vs. our two smaller guards. We had a 6’4” guard last year and look how that turned out for our defense.

If you saw our first game this season, Lehigh’s 5’11” (if that) #0 absolutely killed us from the perimeter by going 5 of 10 3s, and 6’2 Epps and 6’2” Mack had 3 inches on him. Also, the same 5’11 guard grabbed 8 rebounds vs. GU’s tall frontcourt???!!!

No, it’s not about size for college guards. It’s about cojones, or Cooley’s 3 “E’s”. Of course, ceteris paribus, taller is better. But, 6’2” guards are pretty standard in college basketball.

Your point is well taken. Have no doubt that guard size is not necessarily a liability on defense. That said I would always prefer to have larger guards on defense assuming a certain level of athleticism that enables them to actually close out on a shooter. We did not have the necessary athleticism last year and have not for several years.

If Mack and Epps become a dynamic scoring duo and present a real threat on offense then great. Saw that out West last year with a New Mexico team that had two short guards who torched opponents and only one of whom was a good defensive player. However, if shooting from deep is going to be an issue all season (and who knows for certain at this point) then I like the brief glimpse we got of Mulready, Burks and Williams playing defense in the Fairfield game.

[professorhoya]

Nov 14, 2024 7:49:07 GMT -5 calhoya said:

Nov 14, 2024 0:48:11 GMT -5 prhoya said:

I agree with most of your HT posts, except that you consistently express concern with guard size. I consistently try to show that in the college game, guard size is not that big a deal and that what we’ve seen throughout the years, maybe with one or two exceptions, is that championship teams consistently have small guards starting or playing big minutes.

I know that you’ve followed the team throughout the years and must have seen how under-6’ guards have killed us time and again. Now, you’re worried about ND’s 6’4” vs. our two smaller guards. We had a 6’4” guard last year and look how that turned out for our defense.

If you saw our first game this season, Lehigh’s 5’11” (if that) #0 absolutely killed us from the perimeter by going 5 of 10 3s, and 6’2 Epps and 6’2” Mack had 3 inches on him. Also, the same 5’11 guard grabbed 8 rebounds vs. GU’s tall frontcourt???!!!

No, it’s not about size for college guards. It’s about cojones, or Cooley’s 3 “E’s”. Of course, ceteris paribus, taller is better. But, 6’2” guards are pretty standard in college basketball.

Your point is well taken. Have no doubt that guard size is not necessarily a liability on defense. That said I would always prefer to have larger guards on defense assuming a certain level of athleticism that enables them to actually close out on a shooter. We did not have the necessary athleticism last year and have not for several years.

If Mack and Epps become a dynamic scoring duo and present a real threat on offense then great. Saw that out West last year with a New Mexico team that had two short guards who torched opponents and only one of whom was a good defensive player. However, if shooting from deep is going to be an issue all season (and who knows for certain at this point) then I like the brief glimpse we got of Mulready, Burks and Williams playing defense in the Fairfield game.

Neither of these guys is a midget especially at pg. since one has to play the wing they are a little undersized and lack length at the 2. This is why it important to play 7-2 wingspan Burks alongside
Sorber because that gives you two interior erasers along with elite defender Peavy.

Burks also has the athleticism to cover 2-5 so can help on switches. So he is vitally important given the composition of our starting guards.

[MCIGuy]

Nov 12, 2024 16:32:06 GMT -5 drquigley said:

I hope I’m wrong but I’m afraid this game will expose our lack of a legit point guard. By legit pg I mean a guy whose assist to turnover ratio is at least 5-1, who plays defense, and who is the acknowledged leader of the team. When was the last time we had such a pg? I have to go back to Jonathan Wallace. Am I wrong.

Its two games and some of you have bailed on Mack already. What the hell? He has to get acquainted to all the talent he has around him and figure out how to best play his role. I'm sure he'll get there. One person on Twitter who had witnessed the scrimmage between the Terps and the Hoyas claimed Mack was the best player on the court. I am waiting for THAT Mack to make his grand entrance.

[MCIGuy]

Nov 12, 2024 16:48:06 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Nov 12, 2024 16:32:06 GMT -5 drquigley said:

I hope I’m wrong but I’m afraid this game will expose our lack of a legit point guard. By legit pg I mean a guy whose assist to turnover ratio is at least 5-1, who plays defense, and who is the acknowledged leader of the team. When was the last time we had such a pg? I have to go back to Jonathan Wallace. Am I wrong.

Your expectations are very close to unattainable, especially for players on a newly assembled team.

I knew folks would quickly lose patience with Mack who has always been more of a scorer than a distributor. We have to give him time to settle in.

J. Wallace was a favorite of mine and a very good player but he never had anywhere close to a 5 to 1 ATO. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think he ever led the team in assists

In my opinion there are some Hoya players who tend to get that nostalgic-overhype for one reason or another:

Joey Brown (can't figure out why)
Jabril Trawick (my favorite of this bunch)
Jonathan Wallace

Wallace brings back good memories to folks because he was part of the program when it was winning BIG. And there is no doubt that Wallace was smart with the ball, took great shots and could hit three-pointers better than most Hoya guards in the program's history. But its laughable when Hoya fans talk of him as an ideal point guard when the guy couldn't break down a defense or create for his teammates. And even his fantastic three-point shooting touch only was available when he was left open. Despite these limitations Hoya fans were often elevating him over Roy Hibbert during the glory days of III.

[professorhoya]

Nov 14, 2024 8:13:19 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

Nov 12, 2024 16:32:06 GMT -5 drquigley said:

I hope I’m wrong but I’m afraid this game will expose our lack of a legit point guard. By legit pg I mean a guy whose assist to turnover ratio is at least 5-1, who plays defense, and who is the acknowledged leader of the team. When was the last time we had such a pg? I have to go back to Jonathan Wallace. Am I wrong.

Its two games and some of you have bailed on Mack already. What the hell? He has to get acquainted to all the talent he has around him and figure out how to best play his role. I'm sure he'll get there. One person on Twitter who had witnessed the scrimmage between the Terps and the Hoyas claimed Mack was the best player on the court. I am waiting for THAT Mack to make his grand entrance.

That’s a good sign because Quigley is always wrong. So the opposite of what he says will happen.

[MCIGuy]

Nov 12, 2024 18:06:55 GMT -5 traversb said:

Nov 12, 2024 16:32:06 GMT -5 drquigley said:

I hope I’m wrong but I’m afraid this game will expose our lack of a legit point guard. By legit pg I mean a guy whose assist to turnover ratio is at least 5-1, who plays defense, and who is the acknowledged leader of the team. When was the last time we had such a pg? I have to go back to Jonathan Wallace. Am I wrong.

Rowan Brumbaugh currently has a 17 to 2 turnover ratio while shoot 48% from 3......sorry I had to.

Didn't know that. Good for Rowan.

[MCIGuy]

Nov 13, 2024 12:10:40 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Nov 13, 2024 11:21:40 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

Sounds like Princeton principles!

Shhhh!! I'm trying to rebrand it for our traumatized fan base

If its the one that the Kings played in the 2000s I'm all for it. If its III's version, well, my enthusiasm wanes.

[EtomicB]

Nov 14, 2024 8:14:03 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

Nov 12, 2024 16:48:06 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Your expectations are very close to unattainable, especially for players on a newly assembled team.

I knew folks would quickly lose patience with Mack who has always been more of a scorer than a distributor. We have to give him time to settle in.

J. Wallace was a favorite of mine and a very good player but he never had anywhere close to a 5 to 1 ATO. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think he ever led the team in assists

In my opinion there are some Hoya players who tend to get that nostalgic-overhype for one reason or another:

Joey Brown (can't figure out why)
Jabril Trawick (my favorite of this bunch)
Jonathan Wallace

Wallace brings back good memories to folks because he was part of the program when it was winning BIG. And there is no doubt that Wallace was smart with the ball, took great shots and could hit three-pointers better than most Hoya guards in the program's history. But its laughable when Hoya fans talk of him as an ideal point guard when the guy couldn't break down a defense or create for his teammates. And even his fantastic three-point shooting touch only was available when he was left open. Despite these limitations Hoya fans were often elevating him over Roy Hibbert during the glory days of III.

IMHO, the spacing provided by a player who shoots a high volume (45%) from three "creates and breaks down a defense" for their teammates as much as any player when they're on the court.

[kghoya]

Nov 14, 2024 8:20:36 GMT -5 professorhoya said:

Nov 14, 2024 8:13:19 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

Its two games and some of you have bailed on Mack already. What the hell? He has to get acquainted to all the talent he has around him and figure out how to best play his role. I'm sure he'll get there. One person on Twitter who had witnessed the scrimmage between the Terps and the Hoyas claimed Mack was the best player on the court. I am waiting for THAT Mack to make his grand entrance.

That’s a good sign because Quigley is always wrong. So the opposite of what he says will happen.

Be nice. There was a poster on here last year that kept saying that UConn wasn't athletic enough to win the national championship. I think you know who I'm talking about.

[hoyariv71]

Nov 14, 2024 8:13:19 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

Nov 12, 2024 16:32:06 GMT -5 drquigley said:

I hope I’m wrong but I’m afraid this game will expose our lack of a legit point guard. By legit pg I mean a guy whose assist to turnover ratio is at least 5-1, who plays defense, and who is the acknowledged leader of the team. When was the last time we had such a pg? I have to go back to Jonathan Wallace. Am I wrong.

Its two games and some of you have bailed on Mack already. What the hell? He has to get acquainted to all the talent he has around him and figure out how to best play his role. I'm sure he'll get there. One person on Twitter who had witnessed the scrimmage between the Terps and the Hoyas claimed Mack was the best player on the court. I am waiting for THAT Mack to make his grand entrance.

[b

Exactly, the generation of everything now, right now, is here. I’m 53, the thought of a player getting significant minutes before the end of his sophomore year was rare. I think Mack will adapt and be a difference maker as this year and the next 2 go on. The fact he chose a loosing college over the many offers he had from winning teams, tells me ALOT ABOUT the kids strength. Keep going Mack be ready by big East play!!!

[bigskyhoya]

Nov 14, 2024 9:29:19 GMT -5 kghoya said:

Nov 14, 2024 8:20:36 GMT -5 professorhoya said:

That’s a good sign because Quigley is always wrong. So the opposite of what he says will happen.

Be nice. There was a poster on here last year that kept saying that UConn wasn't athletic enough to win the national championship. I think you know who I'm talking about.

That is the very least the poster you called out has been wrong about.