Georgetown - Notre Dame 11/16/2024 Discussion

[drquigley]

I hope I’m wrong but I’m afraid this game will expose our lack of a legit point guard. By legit pg I mean a guy whose assist to turnover ratio is at least 5-1, who plays defense, and who is the acknowledged leader of the team. When was the last time we had such a pg? I have to go back to Jonathan Wallace. Am I wrong.

[EtomicB]

Nov 12, 2024 16:32:06 GMT -5 drquigley said:

I hope I’m wrong but I’m afraid this game will expose our lack of a legit point guard. By legit pg I mean a guy whose assist to turnover ratio is at least 5-1, who plays defense, and who is the acknowledged leader of the team. When was the last time we had such a pg? I have to go back to Jonathan Wallace. Am I wrong.

Your expectations are very close to unattainable, especially for players on a newly assembled team.

I knew folks would quickly lose patience with Mack who has always been more of a scorer than a distributor. We have to give him time to settle in.

J. Wallace was a favorite of mine and a very good player but he never had anywhere close to a 5 to 1 ATO. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think he ever led the team in assists

[TrueHoyaBlue]

Nov 12, 2024 16:32:06 GMT -5 drquigley said:

I hope I’m wrong but I’m afraid this game will expose our lack of a legit point guard. By legit pg I mean a guy whose assist to turnover ratio is at least 5-1, who plays defense, and who is the acknowledged leader of the team. When was the last time we had such a pg? I have to go back to Jonathan Wallace. Am I wrong.

When is the last time any team had a player like that? Tyler Kole’s averaged 7.7 assists and 2.9 turnovers, and Tristan Newton averaged 6.2 assists and 2.5 turnovers last year. I’d call them elite, not just legit, and both had A/TO ratios closer to 2.5 to 1, half of your target.

Numbers aside, it’s been a while since nice we had a PG that was the undisputed team leader, primarily a facilitator, and made the team go on both ends. There were moments that we’ve seen potential from various GU guards, but Chris Wright might have been the last one to fit your profile, and even he was a scorer as much as a distributor.

[thedragon]

Nov 12, 2024 16:48:34 GMT -5 TrueHoyaBlue said:

Nov 12, 2024 16:32:06 GMT -5 drquigley said:

I hope I’m wrong but I’m afraid this game will expose our lack of a legit point guard. By legit pg I mean a guy whose assist to turnover ratio is at least 5-1, who plays defense, and who is the acknowledged leader of the team. When was the last time we had such a pg? I have to go back to Jonathan Wallace. Am I wrong.

When is the last time any team had a player like that? Tyler Kole’s averaged 7.7 assists and 2.9 turnovers, and Tristan Newton averaged 6.2 assists and 2.5 turnovers last year. I’d call them elite, not just legit, and both had A/TO ratios closer to 2.5 to 1, half of your target.

Numbers aside, it’s been a while since nice we had a PG that was the undisputed team leader, primarily a facilitator, and made the team go on both ends. There were moments that we’ve seen potential from various GU guards, but Chris Wright might have been the last one to fit your profile, and even he was a scorer as much as a distributor.

5 to 1 is not in the realm of necessary to be successful. 3 to 1 is elite.

[traversb]

Nov 12, 2024 16:32:06 GMT -5 drquigley said:

I hope I’m wrong but I’m afraid this game will expose our lack of a legit point guard. By legit pg I mean a guy whose assist to turnover ratio is at least 5-1, who plays defense, and who is the acknowledged leader of the team. When was the last time we had such a pg? I have to go back to Jonathan Wallace. Am I wrong.

Rowan Brumbaugh currently has a 17 to 2 turnover ratio while shoot 48% from 3......sorry I had to.

[caip]

Nov 12, 2024 18:06:55 GMT -5 traversb said:

Nov 12, 2024 16:32:06 GMT -5 drquigley said:

I hope I’m wrong but I’m afraid this game will expose our lack of a legit point guard. By legit pg I mean a guy whose assist to turnover ratio is at least 5-1, who plays defense, and who is the acknowledged leader of the team. When was the last time we had such a pg? I have to go back to Jonathan Wallace. Am I wrong.

Rowan Brumbaugh currently has a 17 to 2 turnover ratio while shoot 48% from 3......sorry I had to.

I see 18% from the field on non-3s. Maybe he’ll stay behind the arc…..

[SFHoya99]

Nov 12, 2024 16:32:06 GMT -5 drquigley said:

I hope I’m wrong but I’m afraid this game will expose our lack of a legit point guard. By legit pg I mean a guy whose assist to turnover ratio is at least 5-1, who plays defense, and who is the acknowledged leader of the team. When was the last time we had such a pg? I have to go back to Jonathan Wallace. Am I wrong.

That is an insane assist to turnover ratio that Magic Johnson or Chris Paul or whomever you pick wouldn't hit.

When we had Jon Wallace, people wanted a PG who could penetrate and said he couldn't defend. Just wait until we get a real PG!

We may get exposed against ND, but I suspect it'll be more around the defense, how young we are, and how we can't shoot. If Sorber gets slowed down a bit, who can compensate? We have two ball handlers, two guys who can create a bit with the dribble -- well, three with Peavy. It's a far bigger problem that we can't hit open threes than that Mack and Epps are both shoot first, I think.

[SFHoya99]

Nov 12, 2024 16:48:06 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Nov 12, 2024 16:32:06 GMT -5 drquigley said:

I hope I’m wrong but I’m afraid this game will expose our lack of a legit point guard. By legit pg I mean a guy whose assist to turnover ratio is at least 5-1, who plays defense, and who is the acknowledged leader of the team. When was the last time we had such a pg? I have to go back to Jonathan Wallace. Am I wrong.

Your expectations are very close to unattainable, especially for players on a newly assembled team.

I knew folks would quickly lose patience with Mack who has always been more of a scorer than a distributor. We have to give him time to settle in.

J. Wallace was a favorite of mine and a very good player but he never had anywhere close to a 5 to 1 ATO. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think he ever led the team in assists

Wallace started the offense, but he was a finisher, not a creator. Jeff might as well have been the de facto PG on those teams.

[drquigley]

Nov 12, 2024 16:56:36 GMT -5 thedragon said:

Nov 12, 2024 16:48:34 GMT -5 TrueHoyaBlue said:

When is the last time any team had a player like that? Tyler Kole’s averaged 7.7 assists and 2.9 turnovers, and Tristan Newton averaged 6.2 assists and 2.5 turnovers last year. I’d call them elite, not just legit, and both had A/TO ratios closer to 2.5 to 1, half of your target.

Numbers aside, it’s been a while since nice we had a PG that was the undisputed team leader, primarily a facilitator, and made the team go on both ends. There were moments that we’ve seen potential from various GU guards, but Chris Wright might have been the last one to fit your profile, and even he was a scorer as much as a distributor.

5 to 1 is not in the realm of necessary to be successful. 3 to 1 is elite.

Stand corrected. Kolek blew my mind last year with a number of games where his assist to turnover ratio was unbelievably high (I recall seeing a 10-1 box score). Plus he was the quintessential floor leader.

[conshyhoya]

Nov 12, 2024 16:48:34 GMT -5 TrueHoyaBlue said:

Nov 12, 2024 16:32:06 GMT -5 drquigley said:

I hope I’m wrong but I’m afraid this game will expose our lack of a legit point guard. By legit pg I mean a guy whose assist to turnover ratio is at least 5-1, who plays defense, and who is the acknowledged leader of the team. When was the last time we had such a pg? I have to go back to Jonathan Wallace. Am I wrong.

When is the last time any team had a player like that? Tyler Kole’s averaged 7.7 assists and 2.9 turnovers, and Tristan Newton averaged 6.2 assists and 2.5 turnovers last year. I’d call them elite, not just legit, and both had A/TO ratios closer to 2.5 to 1, half of your target.

Numbers aside, it’s been a while since nice we had a PG that was the undisputed team leader, primarily a facilitator, and made the team go on both ends. There were moments that we’ve seen potential from various GU guards, but Chris Wright might have been the last one to fit your profile, and even he was a scorer as much as a distributor.

Although the team sucked and it was after the exodus I thought Terrell Allen fit the mold of what I would want from my PG. True pass first leader.

[hoyariv71]

I think the game has changed, PG are scorers now. To be a really good team, Mack needs to be a leader run offense and reduce turnovers. A really good passing team will have assists spread out, Sorber is a good passer.

[EtomicB]

Nov 13, 2024 9:28:48 GMT -5 hoyariv71 said:

I think the game has changed, PG are scorers now. To be a really good team, Mack needs to be a leader run offense and reduce turnovers. A really good passing team will have assists spread out, Sorber is a good passer.

Bingo!!

I've posted since the staff landed JH that I would prefer to see Sorber, Fielder & JH be used as facilitators in a spread offense where a lot of off ball action is being run.

This would keep all involved and lessen the pressure of 1 player "running" the offense.

[SSHoya]

Nov 13, 2024 11:05:18 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Nov 13, 2024 9:28:48 GMT -5 hoyariv71 said:

I think the game has changed, PG are scorers now. To be a really good team, Mack needs to be a leader run offense and reduce turnovers. A really good passing team will have assists spread out, Sorber is a good passer.

Bingo!!

I've posted since the staff landed JH that I would prefer to see Sorber, Fielder & JH be used as facilitators in a spread offense where a lot of off ball action is being run.

This would keep all involved and lessen the pressure of 1 player "running" the offense.

Sounds like Princeton principles!

[bostonfan]

Nov 13, 2024 9:28:48 GMT -5 hoyariv71 said:

I think the game has changed, PG are scorers now. To be a really good team, Mack needs to be a leader run offense and reduce turnovers. A really good passing team will have assists spread out, Sorber is a good passer.

While I don't think Mack has been great in the first few games, I do think he has given me hope that the Hoyas do have a legit Big East PG to lead the team. Just with the eye test, he clearly has the speed/quickness and handles to be a good PG. 


Many people on this board were concerned that it might take a little while for him to adjust to the different level of play between the Ivy and the Big East, and I think that is probably part of what we are seeing. I think he is still getting used to playing with a new group of teammates and trying to determine what his best role will be on this team. I don't have any problem with him looking for his shot sometimes and being an offensive threat that the other team needs to game plan for, and I think as the season evolves he will settle into more of a distributor role and look for his own shot a little less. The biggest improvement I am hoping for is his impact on the team's transition game, which for whatever reason is not very good right now. They have the athletes to be a good transition team and should get more easy baskets from that part of the game than they have so far.


He is absolutely an upgrade from the options at point guard last year. 

[EtomicB]

Nov 13, 2024 11:21:40 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

Nov 13, 2024 11:05:18 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Bingo!!

I've posted since the staff landed JH that I would prefer to see Sorber, Fielder & JH be used as facilitators in a spread offense where a lot of off ball action is being run.

This would keep all involved and lessen the pressure of 1 player "running" the offense.

Sounds like Princeton principles!

Shhhh!! I'm trying to rebrand it for our traumatized fan base

[SSHoya]

Nov 13, 2024 12:10:40 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Nov 13, 2024 11:21:40 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

Sounds like Princeton principles!

Shhhh!! I'm trying to rebrand it for our traumatized fan base

😀

[jwp91]

Nov 13, 2024 12:05:07 GMT -5 bostonfan said:

Nov 13, 2024 9:28:48 GMT -5 hoyariv71 said:

I think the game has changed, PG are scorers now. To be a really good team, Mack needs to be a leader run offense and reduce turnovers. A really good passing team will have assists spread out, Sorber is a good passer.

While I don't think Mack has been great in the first few games, I do think he has given me hope that the Hoyas do have a legit Big East PG to lead the team. Just with the eye test, he clearly has the speed/quickness and handles to be a good PG. 


Many people on this board were concerned that it might take a little while for him to adjust to the different level of play between the Ivy and the Big East, and I think that is probably part of what we are seeing. I think he is still getting used to playing with a new group of teammates and trying to determine what his best role will be on this team. I don't have any problem with him looking for his shot sometimes and being an offensive threat that the other team needs to game plan for, and I think as the season evolves he will settle into more of a distributor role and look for his own shot a little less. The biggest improvement I am hoping for is his impact on the team's transition game, which for whatever reason is not very good right now. They have the athletes to be a good transition team and should get more easy baskets from that part of the game than they have so far.


He is absolutely an upgrade from the options at point guard last year. 

I am fine attributing Mack's start to an adjustment to a new situation so long as we can agree that the production and efficiency to date has been below expectations. To be on the upside case for this team, we need better from him.

[smokeyjack]

Nov 13, 2024 12:29:40 GMT -5 jwp91 said:

Nov 13, 2024 12:05:07 GMT -5 bostonfan said:

While I don't think Mack has been great in the first few games, I do think he has given me hope that the Hoyas do have a legit Big East PG to lead the team. Just with the eye test, he clearly has the speed/quickness and handles to be a good PG. 


Many people on this board were concerned that it might take a little while for him to adjust to the different level of play between the Ivy and the Big East, and I think that is probably part of what we are seeing. I think he is still getting used to playing with a new group of teammates and trying to determine what his best role will be on this team. I don't have any problem with him looking for his shot sometimes and being an offensive threat that the other team needs to game plan for, and I think as the season evolves he will settle into more of a distributor role and look for his own shot a little less. The biggest improvement I am hoping for is his impact on the team's transition game, which for whatever reason is not very good right now. They have the athletes to be a good transition team and should get more easy baskets from that part of the game than they have so far.


He is absolutely an upgrade from the options at point guard last year. 

I am fine attributing Mack's start to an adjustment to a new situation so long as we can agree that the production and efficiency to date has been below expectations. To be on the upside case for this team, we need better from him.

Absolutely. Mack has been the Yin to Sorber's Yang in terms of preseason expectations. Maybe I expected too much, but he seems like Epps Lite to me. 

[bostonfan]

Nov 13, 2024 12:29:40 GMT -5 jwp91 said:

Nov 13, 2024 12:05:07 GMT -5 bostonfan said:

While I don't think Mack has been great in the first few games, I do think he has given me hope that the Hoyas do have a legit Big East PG to lead the team. Just with the eye test, he clearly has the speed/quickness and handles to be a good PG. 


Many people on this board were concerned that it might take a little while for him to adjust to the different level of play between the Ivy and the Big East, and I think that is probably part of what we are seeing. I think he is still getting used to playing with a new group of teammates and trying to determine what his best role will be on this team. I don't have any problem with him looking for his shot sometimes and being an offensive threat that the other team needs to game plan for, and I think as the season evolves he will settle into more of a distributor role and look for his own shot a little less. The biggest improvement I am hoping for is his impact on the team's transition game, which for whatever reason is not very good right now. They have the athletes to be a good transition team and should get more easy baskets from that part of the game than they have so far.


He is absolutely an upgrade from the options at point guard last year. 

I am fine attributing Mack's start to an adjustment to a new situation so long as we can agree that the production and efficiency to date has been below expectations. To be on the upside case for this team, we need better from him.

I agree that his play needs to improve, but I think his production for 2 games is not the problem (11 points per game and 4 assists per game), it is his efficiency and the number of turnovers that he has had that are the concern. If he can continue to average 12-14 points per game and 4-6 assists per game and improve his efficiency and limit the turnovers, then he becomes a great asset. A good point guard needs to take better care of the ball, and I think Mack will do that as the season wears on. With Epps, Peavy and Sorber the team should not need Mack to be scoring 20 points a game.

[jwp91]

Nov 13, 2024 13:48:39 GMT -5 bostonfan said:

Nov 13, 2024 12:29:40 GMT -5 jwp91 said:

I am fine attributing Mack's start to an adjustment to a new situation so long as we can agree that the production and efficiency to date has been below expectations. To be on the upside case for this team, we need better from him.

I agree that his play needs to improve, but I think his production for 2 games is not the problem (11 points per game and 4 assists per game), it is his efficiency and the number of turnovers that he has had that are the concern. If he can continue to average 12-14 points per game and 4-6 assists per game and improve his efficiency and limit the turnovers, then he becomes a great asset. A good point guard needs to take better care of the ball, and I think Mack will do that as the season wears on. With Epps, Peavy and Sorber the team should not need Mack to be scoring 20 points a game.

I largely agree, but when I see 22% 3ptFG, then production will increase too, and that % must increase. I view 9 assists and 9 turnovers as net 0 for a PG.