Georgetown - Notre Dame 11/16/2024 Discussion

[SFHoya99]

Nov 14, 2024 8:14:03 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

But its laughable when Hoya fans talk of him as an ideal point guard when the guy couldn't break down a defense or create for his teammates.

I think that's the disconnect.

I don't think Wallace was the ideal pure point guard. I simply don't think a team needs a pure point guard. This board has been obsessed with one since the Wallace days, always claiming once we got one everything would be fixed. Every guard since has basically been too much of a scorer.

Wallace was fantastic because he was smart, got everyone involved, was calm, collected, never panicked, stone cold at the FT line, was really good at making cuts and surprisingly good at finishing on those cuts ... and shot nearly 50% from 3.

Right now, if Malik Mack or Jayden Epps changed nothing else and did those things ... they'd be great. An offense doesn't need to run through one single focal point guard.

Chris Wright was undoubtedly more of a pure PG (though still a scorer) -- he never sniffed Wallace's jr/sr efficiency ratings in his four years. His usage wasn't that much higher. He could create more, but the value of someone who simply executes their role that well is super valuable as well. And Jon's teams won.

It's literally been nearly two decades but so many people picked endlessly on Wallace -- he can't drive, he can't defend (though he was on our best defensive teams ever), we need a true PG. Nah, we just need good players.

I am actually having the same argument with someone else about the best PG of all time, which is probably Steph Curry. They can't wrap their head around it, because they don't think Steph Curry is the type of PG that they envision. But he's a PG, and he wins.

[SFHoya99]

Nov 14, 2024 8:28:38 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

If its III's version, well, my enthusiasm wanes.

Ahh, yes, you know, the one that got us to a Final Four.

I'm still somewhat convinced our fan base's hatred of the Princeton and obsession with guards driving led to some of the ensuing recruiting issues more than the other way around. JTIII's offense was fantastic -- so many easy buckets.

This post of yours goes right hand in hand with the pure PG thing. Next you'll be posting that we need to full court press like the 80s!

It's 2024, folks.

[dariantownesvanzandt]

It feels like nobody would care what type of PG he was if he cut way back on the turnovers.

[HometownHoya]

He's forcing things now which leads to TOs, as he gets more comfortable in Cooley's system and with his teammates they will improve. We don't need our lead guards to be defensive stars, we have guys around them that can help pick up the slack. We do need them to make smart decisions on both sides of the ball and I trust both will grow into the roles that Coach has set out for them.

[professorhoya]

Nov 14, 2024 9:29:19 GMT -5 kghoya said:

Nov 14, 2024 8:20:36 GMT -5 professorhoya said:

That’s a good sign because Quigley is always wrong. So the opposite of what he says will happen.

Be nice. There was a poster on here last year that kept saying that UConn wasn't athletic enough to win the national championship. I think you know who I'm talking about.

That poster wasn’t wrong though. UCONN was a lot less athletic than the the team before it. And wasn’t as good as a team with Sanogo and Clingan at center. They would have lost to Purdue as Edey dominating inside and Clingan and Samson Johnson in foul trouble but their guards froze up in the National championship game. It’s too bad that poster stopped doing his podcast as it was pretty good and he doesn’t post here anymore for some reason.

[zxhoya]

Nov 14, 2024 8:14:03 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

Nov 12, 2024 16:48:06 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Your expectations are very close to unattainable, especially for players on a newly assembled team.

I knew folks would quickly lose patience with Mack who has always been more of a scorer than a distributor. We have to give him time to settle in.

J. Wallace was a favorite of mine and a very good player but he never had anywhere close to a 5 to 1 ATO. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think he ever led the team in assists

In my opinion there are some Hoya players who tend to get that nostalgic-overhype for one reason or another:

Joey Brown (can't figure out why)
Jabril Trawick (my favorite of this bunch)
Jonathan Wallace

Wallace brings back good memories to folks because he was part of the program when it was winning BIG. And there is no doubt that Wallace was smart with the ball, took great shots and could hit three-pointers better than most Hoya guards in the program's history. But its laughable when Hoya fans talk of him as an ideal point guard when the guy couldn't break down a defense or create for his teammates. And even his fantastic three-point shooting touch only was available when he was left open. Despite these limitations Hoya fans were often elevating him over Roy Hibbert during the glory days of III.

Show some love for Joey Brown He had physical limitations, but he maxed out his potential....I have fond memories of Joey.

[jackofjoy]

Nov 14, 2024 8:14:03 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

Nov 12, 2024 16:48:06 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Your expectations are very close to unattainable, especially for players on a newly assembled team.

I knew folks would quickly lose patience with Mack who has always been more of a scorer than a distributor. We have to give him time to settle in.

J. Wallace was a favorite of mine and a very good player but he never had anywhere close to a 5 to 1 ATO. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think he ever led the team in assists

In my opinion there are some Hoya players who tend to get that nostalgic-overhype for one reason or another:

Joey Brown (can't figure out why)
Jabril Trawick (my favorite of this bunch)
Jonathan Wallace

Wallace brings back good memories to folks because he was part of the program when it was winning BIG. And there is no doubt that Wallace was smart with the ball, took great shots and could hit three-pointers better than most Hoya guards in the program's history. But its laughable when Hoya fans talk of him as an ideal point guard when the guy couldn't break down a defense or create for his teammates. And even his fantastic three-point shooting touch only was available when he was left open. Despite these limitations Hoya fans were often elevating him over Roy Hibbert during the glory days of III.

Guilty as charged.

Couldn't shoot a lick.  "Only" averaged 30+ mpg every season, missed like 2 games in his career.  Plugged in immediately as a starter his freshman year when it was the Zeke and Zo show.  Steadying force for a "Zo and the misfits" soph year.  Held together a bunch of very good (Big O) to decent (Churchwell, Reid) to tantalizing (George Butler and Duane Spencer, anyone?) talent his junior and senior years. 

First recruiting class after most think JT2 gave up on recruiting (other than the Iverson and Page reclamation-type projects).

Three BE finals trips (alas no championships).

Maybe I'm just nostalgic for the times when the team's worst year in a dude's 4 year career was going 8-10 in conference and bowing out in the NIT quarterfinals. Them's the days!

[jackofjoy]

Nov 14, 2024 15:55:34 GMT -5 zxhoya said:

Nov 14, 2024 8:14:03 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

In my opinion there are some Hoya players who tend to get that nostalgic-overhype for one reason or another:

Joey Brown (can't figure out why)
Jabril Trawick (my favorite of this bunch)
Jonathan Wallace

Wallace brings back good memories to folks because he was part of the program when it was winning BIG. And there is no doubt that Wallace was smart with the ball, took great shots and could hit three-pointers better than most Hoya guards in the program's history. But its laughable when Hoya fans talk of him as an ideal point guard when the guy couldn't break down a defense or create for his teammates. And even his fantastic three-point shooting touch only was available when he was left open. Despite these limitations Hoya fans were often elevating him over Roy Hibbert during the glory days of III.

Show some love Joey Brown He had physical limitations, but he maxed out his potential....I have fond memories of Joey.

Beat me to it! 

[zxhoya]

Nov 14, 2024 16:04:03 GMT -5 jackofjoy said:

Nov 14, 2024 15:55:34 GMT -5 zxhoya said:

Show some love Joey Brown He had physical limitations, but he maxed out his potential....I have fond memories of Joey.

Beat me to it! 

I appreciate your post much more jack, you brought facts.

[hoyariv71]

Loved Joey Brown

[seaweed]

Nov 14, 2024 16:48:38 GMT -5 hoyariv71 said:

Loved Joey Brown

He was no Charles Smith

[SSHoya]

Nov 14, 2024 19:34:36 GMT -5 seaweed said:

Nov 14, 2024 16:48:38 GMT -5 hoyariv71 said:

Loved Joey Brown

He was no Charles Smith

He was no Gene Smith!

[zxhoya]

Nov 14, 2024 19:36:26 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

Nov 14, 2024 19:34:36 GMT -5 seaweed said:

He was no Charles Smith

He was no Gene Smith!

He is a Hoya!

[dense]

Joey's son looks like he is gonna be a player and he worships his dad and seems to want to follow him to Georgetown so chill on anything negative. He is ranked top 100 for 2027

[blueandgray]

I for one think Kevin Braswell is generally underrated as a Hoya pg.

[hoyasaxa2003]

With the major caveat that we are two games into the season, so any stats are going to be incredibly small sample sizes, here are our D ratings in the following situations:

D Rating:

Mack & Epps Playing Together: 105.7 (56 minutes played)
Mack On, Epps Off: 76.3 (11 minutes played)
Epps On, Mack Off: 67.7 (9 minutes played)
Both Mack & Epps Not Playing: 95.3 (4 minutes played*)

So, this incredibly small sample size shows that our defense has been substantially better when only 1 of Mack/Epps is playing. But this is such a small sample thus far, it's almost meaningless.

It seems pretty clear that Cooley is going to play Mack/Epps a lot together.

For comparison, here are the same offensive ratings:

Mack & Epps Playing Together: 115.0 (56 minutes played)
Mack On, Epps Off: 92.6 (11 minutes played)
Epps On, Mack Off: 101.6 (9 minutes played)
Both Mack & Epps Not Playing: 127.1 (4 minutes played*)

So in summary, while our defense so far has been better with only one of Mack/Epps, our offense has been substantially better with both playing (the 127.1 is such a small amount of time, I think it's not really relevant).

*I am pretty sure all/almost all of the 4 minutes played without Epps/Mack was in the last game when Cooley benched the starters.

[jwp91]

I am curious to see more of Mulready. He has great size. In his few minutes last game, he was a defensive disruptor, and I read reports he does a great job leading the 2nd line-up.

[hoyariv71]

Nov 15, 2024 9:45:47 GMT -5 jwp91 said:

I am curious to see more of Mulready. He has great size. In his few minutes last game, he was a defensive disruptor, and I read reports he does a great job leading the 2nd line-up.

Also rated a pretty good shooter, which we need

[SFHoya99]

Nov 15, 2024 10:26:16 GMT -5 hoyariv71 said:

Nov 15, 2024 9:45:47 GMT -5 jwp91 said:

I am curious to see more of Mulready. He has great size. In his few minutes last game, he was a defensive disruptor, and I read reports he does a great job leading the 2nd line-up.

Also rated a pretty good shooter, which we need

Where did you see that? My impression of him is that he's a slasher but not much of a shooter.

[drquigley]

Nov 14, 2024 8:20:36 GMT -5 professorhoya said:

Nov 14, 2024 8:13:19 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

Its two games and some of you have bailed on Mack already. What the hell? He has to get acquainted to all the talent he has around him and figure out how to best play his role. I'm sure he'll get there. One person on Twitter who had witnessed the scrimmage between the Terps and the Hoyas claimed Mack was the best player on the court. I am waiting for THAT Mack to make his grand entrance.

That’s a good sign because Quigley is always wrong. So the opposite of what he says will happen.

Quigley here. I'll give you that a 5-1 assist to turnover ratio is probably unrealistic but a pg that at least keeps the turnovers down and is the team leader on the floor is absolutely essential if we are to avoid the disaster of the previous 5+ years. Too often in the past we've seen winnable games spin out of control because our pgs just had no idea of how to run the clock, find the open man, or basically not panic. Who can forget the UCONN game two years ago. Last home game of the season. Up by 8 points with less than 4 minutes to play and wind up losing by 8 points! Okay they don't have to lead the world in assists but they definitely need to control the flow of the game and not play hero ball when leading in the last 5 minutes of a game. Epps is the worst and like all of you I was hoping Mack wouldn't be the same. So far I'm just not sure he isn't.