bluegray79
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Post by bluegray79 on Nov 18, 2024 14:52:04 GMT -5
I couldn't watch the second half and I doubt I will go back and do so, but I think the two primary things I would do would have little to do with lineup work. 1. Run the offense with intention. Too much settling, too much lazy decision making. For all the focus on Epps, we had guys like Curtis Williams and Kayvaughn Mulready taking pull up threes with 20 second left on the clock during a 13-0 run against us. There's no doubt ND was going to play better defense than Lehigh, but we just stopped running things. Whether it's Epps or Mack or Peavy, we were in the middle of a terrible run and didn't go to Sorber or even that Peavy fade-away until it was far too late. I'll even take Williams and Burks going 0-4 on spot up threes early if they are wide open compared to watching pull ups or Mack clearing out and pushing away a screener for no reason. 2. What was that defense? I didn't see the second half, but the amount of dumb help off shooters is mind blowing. I just don't understand, between no one able to run the offense and losing composure immediately, to every somehow losing the same red hot shooter over and over to half help. after two games of promising improvement, this just felt like total regression. And no, I don't think it was all that much the opponent. They got behind and lost all composure in like eight minutes. No one was guiltless. This isn't a matter of two short guards or whatever. It seems to me that the team basically abandoned the plan at the first sign of adversity. Honestly, at this point, PT should be given by who sticks to the plan, not talent. If the gameplan was "overhelp off a great shooting team" or "only run plays when you feel like it" then we're screwed. But that seems unlikely. This. You pretty much nailed it without having to see the second half. Don't do it to yourself. Grab a book, cook something, hug a loved one instead...  I was going to do a breakdown of ND's 3-pt shots in the first half to see/show/describe how our defense broke down, but why bother? In summary, it's the same movie from the last JT3 years, the Ewing years and Cooley's first year: opponents shooting wide-open 3s from Hoyas overhelping and crisp passing finding the open man, while also allowing straight-line drives to the basket for easy layups. I saw Fielder get out of the way of a ND player who dunked after driving the open lane. Why not foul in that situation? It makes the team look soft like Hurley said last year and, unlike last year, we didn't need Fielder to save his fouls on Saturday. The difference on offense couldn't be more obvious. ND's players were running intentional plays, making cuts, setting and using screens, taking advantage of our obvious overhelping with crisp passing which led to open shooters, etc... On our side, it looked like last year. Once again, as you mention and I've asked countless times since the Ewing years, what is the gameplan on both sides of the ball? On defense, why does the overhelping continue? Who's responsible for allowing it and who stops it because it's an obvious recurring flaw? On offense, what are we doing because it looks like "only run plays when you feel like it" or my-turn ball? Who's responsible for allowing it and who stops it? Who will ask Cooley in the next post-game conference if that's the playbook or are players going rogue without consequence? It's the second year of Cooley Ball and the team does not look like a cohesive unit like 2nd-year coach Shrewsbury's ND. These kids have spent June, July, August, September and October (or most of that time) together and this is how it looks? What is it? Is it the system or the players or both? Is Cooley's system too hard for new players to learn in the age of free transfers? What it's not is rocket science. Yes to just about all of your points. Sound observations and totally valid questions that I also hope reach EC and staff. Cannot agree on last point. Yes, both EC and MS are in the second year of being a new coach and rebuilding mediocre (or worse) teams and programs. But Micah kept a very promising core of 6-7 players from year one and recruited well to get his year 2 team. The system was in place for the core and is being well picked up by the newbies. EC, OTOH, returned 3 (Epps, Fielder, McKenna), only one of which was a starter, brought in 11 transfers/recruits who are clearly still learning the system. EC and staff and team have had the summer and last 2 months together, while the ND squad had the same with a core who had all last year together. Can't overlook what a difference that makes, and it sure showed Saturday. Totally fair to ask what the plan/system is on offense and defense and to pin EC down on what happens when a player goes off script from the playbook. Would love to hear his reply. His best Provy teams played together and often looked as crisp and mature as ND looked. I want to believe that we are heading that way. |
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 18, 2024 15:24:13 GMT -5
I couldn't watch the second half and I doubt I will go back and do so, but I think the two primary things I would do would have little to do with lineup work. 1. Run the offense with intention. Too much settling, too much lazy decision making. For all the focus on Epps, we had guys like Curtis Williams and Kayvaughn Mulready taking pull up threes with 20 second left on the clock during a 13-0 run against us. There's no doubt ND was going to play better defense than Lehigh, but we just stopped running things. Whether it's Epps or Mack or Peavy, we were in the middle of a terrible run and didn't go to Sorber or even that Peavy fade-away until it was far too late. I'll even take Williams and Burks going 0-4 on spot up threes early if they are wide open compared to watching pull ups or Mack clearing out and pushing away a screener for no reason. 2. What was that defense? I didn't see the second half, but the amount of dumb help off shooters is mind blowing. I just don't understand, between no one able to run the offense and losing composure immediately, to every somehow losing the same red hot shooter over and over to half help. after two games of promising improvement, this just felt like total regression. And no, I don't think it was all that much the opponent. They got behind and lost all composure in like eight minutes. No one was guiltless. This isn't a matter of two short guards or whatever. It seems to me that the team basically abandoned the plan at the first sign of adversity. Honestly, at this point, PT should be given by who sticks to the plan, not talent. If the gameplan was "overhelp off a great shooting team" or "only run plays when you feel like it" then we're screwed. But that seems unlikely. This. You pretty much nailed it without having to see the second half. Don't do it to yourself. Grab a book, cook something, hug a loved one instead... I was going to do a breakdown of ND's 3-pt shots in the first half to see/show/describe how our defense broke down, but why bother? In summary, it's the same movie from the last JT3 years, the Ewing years and Cooley's first year: opponents shooting wide-open 3s from Hoyas overhelping and crisp passing finding the open man, while also allowing straight-line drives to the basket for easy layups. I saw Fielder get out of the way of a ND player who dunked after driving the open lane. Why not foul in that situation? It makes the team look soft like Hurley said last year and, unlike last year, we didn't need Fielder to save his fouls on Saturday. The difference on offense couldn't be more obvious. ND's players were running intentional plays, making cuts, setting and using screens, taking advantage of our obvious overhelping with crisp passing which led to open shooters, etc... On our side, it looked like last year. Once again, as you mention and I've asked countless times since the Ewing years, what is the gameplan on both sides of the ball? On defense, why does the overhelping continue? Who's responsible for allowing it and who stops it because it's an obvious recurring flaw? On offense, what are we doing because it looks like "only run plays when you feel like it" or my-turn ball? Who's responsible for allowing it and who stops it? Who will ask Cooley in the next post-game conference if that's the playbook or are players going rogue without consequence? It's the second year of Cooley Ball and the team does not look like a cohesive unit like 2nd-year coach Shrewsbury's ND. These kids have spent June, July, August, September and October (or most of that time) together and this is how it looks? What is it? Is it the system or the players or both? Is Cooley's system too hard for new players to learn in the age of free transfers? What it's not is rocket science.ND is further along because they brought back 85% of their players, and the players they did bring in fit perfectly with what they're trying to do. They aren't a mashup of "talent" like Gtown Cooley doesn't have a "system" like Smart, Pitino, Miller, or (this may set folks off) English; he's a play hard, and together culture coach, and he always has been. Building that culture takes time, unfortunately... |
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Nov 18, 2024 15:29:51 GMT -5
This. You pretty much nailed it without having to see the second half. Don't do it to yourself. Grab a book, cook something, hug a loved one instead... I was going to do a breakdown of ND's 3-pt shots in the first half to see/show/describe how our defense broke down, but why bother? In summary, it's the same movie from the last JT3 years, the Ewing years and Cooley's first year: opponents shooting wide-open 3s from Hoyas overhelping and crisp passing finding the open man, while also allowing straight-line drives to the basket for easy layups. I saw Fielder get out of the way of a ND player who dunked after driving the open lane. Why not foul in that situation? It makes the team look soft like Hurley said last year and, unlike last year, we didn't need Fielder to save his fouls on Saturday. The difference on offense couldn't be more obvious. ND's players were running intentional plays, making cuts, setting and using screens, taking advantage of our obvious overhelping with crisp passing which led to open shooters, etc... On our side, it looked like last year. Once again, as you mention and I've asked countless times since the Ewing years, what is the gameplan on both sides of the ball? On defense, why does the overhelping continue? Who's responsible for allowing it and who stops it because it's an obvious recurring flaw? On offense, what are we doing because it looks like "only run plays when you feel like it" or my-turn ball? Who's responsible for allowing it and who stops it? Who will ask Cooley in the next post-game conference if that's the playbook or are players going rogue without consequence? It's the second year of Cooley Ball and the team does not look like a cohesive unit like 2nd-year coach Shrewsbury's ND. These kids have spent June, July, August, September and October (or most of that time) together and this is how it looks? What is it? Is it the system or the players or both? Is Cooley's system too hard for new players to learn in the age of free transfers? What it's not is rocket science.ND is further along because they brought back 85% of their players, and the players they did bring in fit perfectly with what they're trying to do. They aren't a mashup of "talent" like Gtown And why is that? |
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 18, 2024 15:58:26 GMT -5
ND is further along because they brought back 85% of their players, and the players they did bring in fit perfectly with what they're trying to do. They aren't a mashup of "talent" like Gtown And why is that? Cause their staff knew who they needed to start the rebuild and then valued them once they arrived. Again, it's much easier to recruit to a system than to a culture |
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Nov 18, 2024 17:34:47 GMT -5
Cause their staff knew who they needed to start the rebuild and then valued them once they arrived. Again, it's much easier to recruit to a system than to a culture E, I cannot check right now, but what was the composition of the ND roster last year? Who was there when Shrewsbury arrived? |
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 18, 2024 18:37:35 GMT -5
Cause their staff knew who they needed to start the rebuild and then valued them once they arrived. Again, it's much easier to recruit to a system than to a culture E, I cannot check right now, but what was the composition of the ND roster last year? Who was there when Shrewsbury arrived? The Koznieky(sp?) kid and Matt Zona |
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Post by jctnhoya4ever on Nov 18, 2024 20:08:16 GMT -5
My take on the game is, Cooley should cut the rotation down to 8 players. He has to many players going in and out. He should go with Mack,Epps.peavey,fields and Sorber. Then Burks and Williams from bama, and Mulready. Let that group play together and build some chemistry together. The other big center don’t need to be playing. Everyone can’t play. Caleb Williams and Mulready should have to compete for minutes in practice. Both can’t play. The rotation was just to many players. That’s my opinion. If you’re winning big in second half play some other players. Keep the rotation to 8 no more. Even 7 in big east with 8 if have to. I can’t remember Cooley playing that many players at providence it was 7-8. The offense is just stagnant no ball movement just people forcing shots. I not sold on Cooley I think before nil he was great a building a good team. Now with having to fill in new positions all the time he seems over his head to me. Maybe he should go get a good offense minded coach that knows offense to help.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 18, 2024 23:46:25 GMT -5
Mack threw up a lot of horrible shots too. Should he be benched too? I do not like to go after single players and I do think Epps has some real talent offensively and is showing some D grit this year. The difference between Epps and Mack is that we have seen Epps for a year- the best and the worst. The worst being when he has the ball, pounding it 12-14 times with absolutely no intention of passing the ball. And the more he dribbles, usually the worse the shot becomes, but he takes it anyway. That is the Epps that needs to sit IMHO. When he is taking 3s in the flow, or driving to the hoop ( where I think he is Chris Wright good ), Epps is a real plus. My problem is that it doesn't seem to matter to Coach which Epps is on the floor- the good or the bad- he will stay on the floor. Coach needs to hold him accountable, like every player on the roster. Mack is learning the hardest position on the court on a radically rebuilding team- we can give him some time, I think. I agree with you that if Epps is being a ball hog and clogging the offense, that he should sit and/or otherwise be instructed not to do it. But, Epps has not displayed those tendencies this year to nearly the degree he did last year. The stats bear that out. |
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smokeyjack
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Post by smokeyjack on Nov 19, 2024 12:28:33 GMT -5
I do not like to go after single players and I do think Epps has some real talent offensively and is showing some D grit this year. The difference between Epps and Mack is that we have seen Epps for a year- the best and the worst. The worst being when he has the ball, pounding it 12-14 times with absolutely no intention of passing the ball. And the more he dribbles, usually the worse the shot becomes, but he takes it anyway. That is the Epps that needs to sit IMHO. When he is taking 3s in the flow, or driving to the hoop ( where I think he is Chris Wright good ), Epps is a real plus. My problem is that it doesn't seem to matter to Coach which Epps is on the floor- the good or the bad- he will stay on the floor. Coach needs to hold him accountable, like every player on the roster. Mack is learning the hardest position on the court on a radically rebuilding team- we can give him some time, I think. I agree with you that if Epps is being a ball hog and clogging the offense, that he should sit and/or otherwise be instructed not to do it. But, Epps has not displayed those tendencies this year to nearly the degree he did last year. The stats bear that out. No idea what evidence folks have for thinking Mack is anything other than a younger Epps. Does he have an assist this season? |
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Nov 19, 2024 12:39:32 GMT -5
I agree with you that if Epps is being a ball hog and clogging the offense, that he should sit and/or otherwise be instructed not to do it. But, Epps has not displayed those tendencies this year to nearly the degree he did last year. The stats bear that out. No idea what evidence folks have for thinking Mack is anything other than a younger Epps. Does he have an assist this season? Averaging 4.7 assists per game, 112th in DI. We can be dissatisfied with Mack's play thus far but don't need to exaggerate. POINTS 12.7 150+ REB 4.7 150+ AST 4.7 Tied-112th FG% 37.5 150+ www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/5175952/malik-mack |
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Nov 19, 2024 12:43:15 GMT -5
Mack has 14 assists vs. 11 turnovers. Last year, he had 4.8 assists per game vs. 2.5 turnovers. Clearly, he is still acclimating to the situation. Reports were that he dominated the Maryland scrimmage.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 19, 2024 13:31:41 GMT -5
No idea what evidence folks have for thinking Mack is anything other than a younger Epps. Does he have an assist this season? Averaging 4.7 assists per game, 112th in DI. We can be dissatisfied with Mack's play thus far but don't need to exaggerate. POINTS 12.7 150+ REB 4.7 150+ AST 4.7 Tied-112th FG% 37.5 150+ www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/5175952/malik-mackAnd to use advanced stats, Mack's assist rate is ranked 225th in D-1. In other words, he's getting a good number of assists. The problems with Mack so far are his (1) turnovers, which need to come down, (2) his two point shooting (39.1% doesn't cut it), and (3) his defense. Right now, Mack's efficiency is lower than Epps by 12.6. In other words, we'd be much better off on offense if Mack was just a "younger Epps." |
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 19, 2024 13:42:06 GMT -5
And to use advanced stats, Mack's assist rate is ranked 225th in D-1. In other words, he's getting a good number of assists. The problems with Mack so far are his (1) turnovers, which need to come down, (2) his two point shooting (39.1% doesn't cut it), and (3) his defense. Right now, Mack's efficiency is lower than Epps by 12.6. In other words, we'd be much better off on offense if Mack was just a "younger Epps." [/quote] Right now Mack is doing too much solo, which I will say, is something Epps struggled with last year. Not so much this year, though. But right now, he's the only guy waving off screens to try (and fail) to take a guy one on one. He jacks up a shot completely out of nowhere as the team is running something. He's not the only one who does that, but still. When he has run the offense, he's found guys. We have really mobile bigs -- neither him nor Epps nor anyone should be driving against a set defender without a screen/pick. Period. Why would you? I'm sure both can score off a clearly out, but neither is all that good and if you can have a rolling or popping one of Sorber, Fielder or Julius, that's a better set up, period. I'm sure Cooley wants guys to learn decision making on their own, but I think he's got to be more controlling. We saw this last year as well -- we'd run clear plays like 35% of the time and offense wasn't bad. And then we'd just go static and do some hero ball. Run a damn play EVERY. TIME. down the court. EVERY. TIME. |
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Nov 19, 2024 13:43:48 GMT -5
And to use advanced stats, Mack's assist rate is ranked 225th in D-1. In other words, he's getting a good number of assists. The problems with Mack so far are his (1) turnovers, which need to come down, (2) his two point shooting (39.1% doesn't cut it), and (3) his defense. Right now, Mack's efficiency is lower than Epps by 12.6. In other words, we'd be much better off on offense if Mack was just a "younger Epps." Math! Not my strength! Thanks for advanced stats. |
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Nov 19, 2024 14:18:05 GMT -5
I'm sure Cooley wants guys to learn decision making on their own, but I think he's got to be more controlling. We saw this last year as well -- we'd run clear plays like 35% of the time and offense wasn't bad. And then we'd just go static and do some hero ball. Run a damn play EVERY. TIME. down the court. EVERY. TIME. There's at least 2 plays based on watching Coach Cooley from across the court this past weekend: there's a rub your hand across your forehead play and a put your hand over your heart play. I couldn't for the life of me tell you what the difference was based on watching them. |
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Nov 19, 2024 18:04:46 GMT -5
Based on some of the conversation, I decided to do a deeper dive on the pivotal moments after the first time-out in the Notre Dame game.
Sorber directs Peavy to the corner which leaves Alloco free in the gap. Sorber is slow to step up into it, and Curtis is late.
Then Sorber misses a 3 with 15 seconds on the shot clock- a poorly chosen shot. We should be able to get a better shot against a 2-3 zone. No one even attempt to flash through the soft spot at the free throw line.
Next defensive possession the positioning is scrambled. Peavy and Curtis up top. Fielder Sorber and Epps on the backline. Fielder is on the opposite side. Allocco attacks the gap again with Fielder guarding the corner, Sorber not stepping up, and Curtis arriving late.
Curtis misses a 3 from the top with 11 seconds left on the shot clock. He had enough space to get it off, but he is not a hot shooter so it is a bad decision.
Next possession is man to man. Peavy flusters Burton who throws a prayer which is rebounded by Sorber.
We miss Drew open under the basket and open in transition, and Curtis gets the ball instead. He launches an early 3 which misses. He was a .287 three point shooter last year. I am not saying he shouldn't shoot, but maybe not him that early in the clock, given this game situation. We needed an easy basket. We had missed our last 11 shots.
Line-up change........Epps, Burks, Julius, Mulready, and Peavy. Peavy fouls Burton. Njie makes a mid-range shot at the buzzer.
Julius gets doubled and throws a bad pass which is stolen and leads to a fast break basket. 10-0 ND run.
Epps airballs a contested shot with 14 seconds on the clock. A really poor decision. Possession to the Hoyas.
Mack comes in for Epps. Baseline out of bounds play. Mack pick and pops to Julius who misses a 3. Julius was open but we needed a different shot.
Burton misses after being smothered by Peavy. ND offensive rebound. Corner player is found who sinks a 3.
I am seeing errors across the team. Sorber, Curtis, Julius, Epps. Two of those guys are freshman. Three of those guys are first year players. This is where the youth and lack of an experienced player to settle the team and help them get an easy basket is sorely missed.
Meanwhile Notre Dame was composed and firing on all cylinders.
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Post by hsaxon on Nov 19, 2024 21:44:55 GMT -5
Begs the question Coach - do you think the 8 man rotation is working? This is what Cooley said: "You know when guys see the ball go in the basket early, they get a lot of confidence on both sides of the ball [he was referencing Notre Dame]. When the ball goes in, you saw us getting frustrated when the ball wasn't going in...So there was a lot of emotional breakdown, really emotional breakdown. It won't be a recipe for success playing 10 or 11 guys. So we as a staff have to look at our rotation, we have to see what's the best chemistry on the floor that's a winning combination, and that's still a search and find situation right now..." He also noted, "We took 32 threes. That's not something I want to do. But I mean, we had 10 uncontested wide opens hots of which I think we were one for 10." Good teams don't have "emotional breakdowns." He's right that we need a rotation of eight. And he's right re the threes. But they should have been prepared (and coached) better so as not to take that many threes.
I have seen no "offensive scheme." Even Patrick had an offensive scheme, at times.
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hoyariv71
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Post by hoyariv71 on Nov 20, 2024 7:31:53 GMT -5
Let me be clear, I agree with a shorter rotation, BUT what is he going to do when the players simply ignore the game plan or effort not there??? I THOUGHT HE LEFT GUYS OUT THERE TOO LONG SATURDAY. This program is at the bottom, culture, it’s starts with the coach being consistent with his message and apply it, NO MATTER THE PLAYER
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Nov 20, 2024 11:01:39 GMT -5
When I was rewatching, I better appreciated Mack making some great offensive plays.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 20, 2024 11:18:48 GMT -5
Let me be clear, I agree with a shorter rotation, BUT what is he going to do when the players simply ignore the game plan or effort not there??? I THOUGHT HE LEFT GUYS OUT THERE TOO LONG SATURDAY. This program is at the bottom, culture, it’s starts with the coach being consistent with his message and apply it, NO MATTER THE PLAYER The rotation is already short with Mack, Epps, Peavy & Sorber getting the bulk of the time. The other rotation players are Burks, Fielder & JH, everyone else has been getting sporadic scraps The staff has to figure out what's more important wins or development. If this is truly a rebuild year, then he has to have a longer leash with Mulready, Caleb, Curtis etc... |
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