Georgetown - Notre Dame 11/16/2024 Discussion

[prhoya]

How about more political memes and posts, and we forget about this game?

[arlingtonhoya05]

Nov 16, 2024 16:05:23 GMT -5 bluegray79 said:

Nov 16, 2024 15:40:27 GMT -5 HarbinHoya said:

This, completely agree. Too young, too old, give it time, they need to play together. What don’t you get about the way college works now. It would be a miracle if any of these recruits even stay more than a year without success .

The way college ball works now doesn't change the fact that 15 of the 17 players on this roster are freshmen and sophomores.  The "success now" model is something that EC and staff are navigating but it is clear that they have made the decision to build for the future.  Let's add to that  that 12 of these 17 had never played together before this summer.  It also is a very highly rated recruiting class by people who seem to know a lot about modern college basketball.  So, it would seem that EC knows what he's doing -- at the very least has a plan and has recruited well to carry it out.  It seems to me and lots of others who know very little and just can't understand the way college ball works now that the relative youth, inexperience, and newness are central to understanding who we are and where we are as a team. But what do we know?

It literally changes the “facts” you’re referencing. The majority of these rosters aren’t like Marquette. And if that’s your position, who exactly is responsible for the Cooley recruited players transferring en masse this offseason?

[DanMcQ]

Students in the stands were great today; students on the court fell short.

[DanMcQ]

Pretty much agree with this.

[Nevada Hoya]

It looks as if we get beaten in all the major stats except TO and steals.

[suicideslushpuppie]

So much for being undefeated going in to Morgantown

[aleutianhoya]

Nov 16, 2024 16:19:36 GMT -5 arlingtonhoya05 said:

Nov 16, 2024 16:05:23 GMT -5 bluegray79 said:

The way college ball works now doesn't change the fact that 15 of the 17 players on this roster are freshmen and sophomores.  The "success now" model is something that EC and staff are navigating but it is clear that they have made the decision to build for the future.  Let's add to that  that 12 of these 17 had never played together before this summer.  It also is a very highly rated recruiting class by people who seem to know a lot about modern college basketball.  So, it would seem that EC knows what he's doing -- at the very least has a plan and has recruited well to carry it out.  It seems to me and lots of others who know very little and just can't understand the way college ball works now that the relative youth, inexperience, and newness are central to understanding who we are and where we are as a team. But what do we know?

It literally changes the “facts” you’re referencing. The majority of these rosters aren’t like Marquette. And if that’s your position, who exactly is responsible for the Cooley recruited players transferring en masse this offseason? The opponents aren’t “older.” You’re getting long in the tooth.

There are plenty of teams that win quickly in the modern game.

But ND was fairly experienced. Thats just a fact.

Njie. 2d year at ND; 3d year major college
Davis. 2d year at ND: 3d year major college
Burton. 2d year at ND: 2d year major college
Shrewsberry: Same as Burton.
Allocco: 1st year at ND. Fourth year in college.

Four of our top six (and six of 8) are in their first year here. Its the second year at ND for four of their top 5.

I'm not excusing the performance. Epps is a veteran. Fielder is in year two here. But it's disingenuous to say we aren't young.

[EtomicB]

Nov 16, 2024 15:35:33 GMT -5 smokeyjack said:

Nov 16, 2024 15:26:53 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

It was a bad performance but this game was not a make or break for the season. Despite failing here, however, there's still plenty of time to learn & grow.

We are still very bad. ND in yr 2 under Shrew actually looks like a real bball team. We still look nowhere close on offense, defense, in transition or in any way. That was the worst shooting performance I can ever recall if you factor in both the caliber of the shots and the actual accuracy. Calling that game a complete shambles is too kind. It’s a comically small sample, but the team should be embarrassed.

ND has continuity on its side Gtown doesn't, that's a huge take that shouldn't be discounted.

Also, if you recruit players who aren't shooters your team will have a hard time in this era of basketball.

[reformation]

I guess one of the most disappointing thins I heard is that ND has a top 5 recruiting class next year. Seems like our progress is really slow. I think Cooley has made some errors in roster construction (no shooters), but it seems like we need a transformative player or 2 to put us back into contention. Not so confident re Cooley's ability to mold a group of avg guys into an elite team.

[hoyaatheart55]

Was at the game. It was a nice crowd, too bad we weren’t rewarded with a better game. On the bright side, I had one of the best Cuban sandwiches I’ve ever had at Clyde’s before the game.

[guru]

Nov 16, 2024 17:17:54 GMT -5 reformation said:

I guess one of the most disappointing thins I heard is that ND has a top 5 recruiting class next year. Seems like our progress is really slow. I think Cooley has made some errors in roster construction (no shooters), but it seems like we need a transformative player or 2 to put us back into contention. Not so confident re Cooley's ability to mold a group of avg guys into an elite team.

I honestly don’t remember the timeline but did we ever take a good look at Shrewsbury? I remember hearing his name - but seems like we were zeroed in on Cooley from the middle of the season. Sure seems like we picked the wrong guy - not saying Cooley is doomed, just that Shrewsbury so far is looking like the better hire.

[seaweed]

36 minutes for each of Epps and Mack. Too much talent around for that

[bluegray79]

Nov 16, 2024 16:19:36 GMT -5 arlingtonhoya05 said:

Nov 16, 2024 16:05:23 GMT -5 bluegray79 said:

The way college ball works now doesn't change the fact that 15 of the 17 players on this roster are freshmen and sophomores.  The "success now" model is something that EC and staff are navigating but it is clear that they have made the decision to build for the future.  Let's add to that  that 12 of these 17 had never played together before this summer.  It also is a very highly rated recruiting class by people who seem to know a lot about modern college basketball.  So, it would seem that EC knows what he's doing -- at the very least has a plan and has recruited well to carry it out.  It seems to me and lots of others who know very little and just can't understand the way college ball works now that the relative youth, inexperience, and newness are central to understanding who we are and where we are as a team. But what do we know?

It literally changes the “facts” you’re referencing. The majority of these rosters aren’t like Marquette. And if that’s your position, who exactly is responsible for the Cooley recruited players transferring en masse this offseason?

No, you're right - the majority of these rosters are not like Marquette.  In fact, very few are. But if you had to put Cooley on a spectrum where you have Pitino at a more typical "success now" point and working the system to keep the players he can and replace those who leave with new mercenaries, and Shaka, who manages to get total buy in and near 100% retention, where would you put him?  I see him leaning more toward Smart, and I think his heavy recruiting of specific types of players (it seems quaint to call them "student-athletes" anymore, but I sense that Cooley thinks of them as such inasmuch as he talks a lot about developing players as well as complete young men, Jesuit-Georgetown style) who he hopes/expects to buy in, stay and grow, and experience something great -- much more like Shaka than Pitino.  In this way, the youth and inexperience of this group might not bode well for the "success now" model, but it cannot be ignored or disregarded as being key to understanding this team and its coach.

Last year's roster and mass exodus?  I attribute that to Cooley having 4 months to assemble a roster.  It was seat-of-the-pants, band-aids and glue just to put a team out there.  He just had to get through year one.  Some of them left on their own and others got the message that they would not play much this year and/or would not be getting a scholarship or any NIL money.  By way of contrast, look what EC did when he had a year to scout and recruit.  He's been saying all along that it's a (re)build and it's going to take time.  You don't have to agree with his approach, but the fact remains that you can't analyze what we have before us without acknowledging our youth and inexperience and why we lost badly today.

That and what aleutianhoya says below.

[reformation]

Sure, being relatively young is a factor--a bigger one is not having players who consistently hit open shots--that's not so much an age thing

[miracles87]

I was only able to catch part of the first half, will have my lady secure me to my chair and tape my eyelids open for a full watch tomorrow morning. Seems like we are going to have to up the shooting percentages a tad moving forward

[traversb]

Nov 16, 2024 17:52:25 GMT -5 bluegray79 said:

Nov 16, 2024 16:19:36 GMT -5 arlingtonhoya05 said:

It literally changes the “facts” you’re referencing. The majority of these rosters aren’t like Marquette. And if that’s your position, who exactly is responsible for the Cooley recruited players transferring en masse this offseason?

Last year's roster and mass exodus?  I attribute that to Cooley having 4 months to assemble a roster.  It was seat-of-the-pants, band-aids and glue just to put a team out there.  He just had to get through year one.  Some of them left on their own and others got the message that they would not play much this year and/or would not be getting a scholarship or any NIL money.  By way of contrast, look what EC did when he had a year to scout and recruit.  He's been saying all along that it's a (re)build and it's going to take time.  You don't have to agree with his approach, but the fact remains that you can't analyze what we have before us without acknowledging our youth and inexperience and why we lost badly today.

I am so sick of this Cooley was at a disadvantage last year at that is why he put together a crap class that all left. He was a coach in the Big East for 12 years. He knew he was coming to Georgetown before the season ended. He got players from Texas and North Carolina to come along with bringing a Providence recruit. Enough with the excuse. He just picked bad players and/or couldn't coach them up. He also brought in a chucker that is really hard to play with. He followed that up but apparently bringing in another one. There are some reasons to be excited about the future but it looks very much like Cooley has constructed two bad rosters now and he's not nearly a good enough in game coach to get around those flaws. His strength is in personality and if he can get guys to stick around we have a chance to be good when he coaches a lot of older players. Granted that can be said about a lot of college coaches no matter how good they are.

Let's not forget that Notre Dame had 3 wins two years ago and brought in a coach that only had 2 years college head coaching experience. Were they in as bad a shape as us? No but I don;t think players were clamoring to go there. Shrewsberry didn't bring in players with near the accolades as Cooley did in year one. He brought in a 3 star PG who's second best offer was Drake, a Seton Hall end of rotation former 3 star and his barely 3 star son who are now the 3 best players on this years team. He actually did bring in a 4 star last year but he's gone. The rest of this year's starting 5 is a center he brought with him who if he went in the portal wouldn't have been that highly regarded and filled in a shooter from Princeton. He took his bumps in year one but did more with less than we did last year. He kept most of them around (not kicking in to the curb) and they just play solid basketball and can shoot. I have no idea how much they are spending on NIL but I would bet a lot of money it's less than we are. Shrewsberry comes from the Brad Stevens tree and this is how Stevens built some college powerhouses without highly recruited players. He's a great coach and anyone that watches his teams knows that. He also seems to be very good at roster construction which is more important that recruiting ability. To the poster asking if we ever really gave a look to Shrewsberry, no we did not because we already had our coaching vacancy filled before the last guy was fired. 

[kghoya]

Nov 16, 2024 18:29:22 GMT -5 traversb said:

Nov 16, 2024 17:52:25 GMT -5 bluegray79 said:

Last year's roster and mass exodus?  I attribute that to Cooley having 4 months to assemble a roster.  It was seat-of-the-pants, band-aids and glue just to put a team out there.  He just had to get through year one.  Some of them left on their own and others got the message that they would not play much this year and/or would not be getting a scholarship or any NIL money.  By way of contrast, look what EC did when he had a year to scout and recruit.  He's been saying all along that it's a (re)build and it's going to take time.  You don't have to agree with his approach, but the fact remains that you can't analyze what we have before us without acknowledging our youth and inexperience and why we lost badly today.

I am so sick of this Cooley was at a disadvantage last year at that is why he put together a crap class that all left. He was a coach in the Big East for 12 years. He knew he was coming to Georgetown before the season ended. He got players from Texas and North Carolina to come along with bringing a Providence recruit. Enough with the excuse. He just picked bad players and/or couldn't coach them up. He also brought in a chucker that is really hard to play with. He followed that up but apparently bringing in another one. There are some reasons to be excited about the future but it looks very much like Cooley has constructed two bad rosters now and he's not nearly a good enough in game coach to get around those flaws. His strength is in personality and if he can get guys to stick around we have a chance to be good when he coaches a lot of older players. Granted that can be said about a lot of college coaches no matter how good they are.

Let's not forget that Notre Dame had 3 wins two years ago and brought in a coach that only had 2 years college head coaching experience. Were they in as bad a shape as us? No but I don;t think players were clamoring to go there. Shrewsberry didn't bring in players with near the accolades as Cooley did in year one. He brought in a 3 star PG who's second best offer was Drake, a Seton Hall end of rotation former 3 star and his barely 3 star son who are now the 3 best players on this years team. He actually did bring in a 4 star last year but he's gone. The rest of this year's starting 5 is a center he brought with him who if he went in the portal wouldn't have been that highly regarded and filled in a shooter from Princeton. He took his bumps in year one but did more with less than we did last year. He kept most of them around (not kicking in to the curb) and they just play solid basketball and can shoot. I have no idea how much they are spending on NIL but I would bet a lot of money it's less than we are. Shrewsberry comes from the Brad Stevens tree and this is how Stevens built some college powerhouses without highly recruited players. He's a great coach and anyone that watches his teams knows that. He also seems to be very good at roster construction which is more important that recruiting ability. To the poster asking if we ever really gave a look to Shrewsberry, no we did not because we already had our coaching vacancy filled before the last guy was fired. 

You can't expect the ppl that hired and then extened Ewing to then go out and make a homerun next hire.

[DanMcQ]

[hoyasaxa2003]

Nov 16, 2024 17:40:14 GMT -5 guru said:

Nov 16, 2024 17:17:54 GMT -5 reformation said:

I guess one of the most disappointing thins I heard is that ND has a top 5 recruiting class next year. Seems like our progress is really slow. I think Cooley has made some errors in roster construction (no shooters), but it seems like we need a transformative player or 2 to put us back into contention. Not so confident re Cooley's ability to mold a group of avg guys into an elite team.

I honestly don’t remember the timeline but did we ever take a good look at Shrewsbury? I remember hearing his name - but seems like we were zeroed in on Cooley from the middle of the season. Sure seems like we picked the wrong guy - not saying Cooley is doomed, just that Shrewsbury so far is looking like the better hire.

A lot of the articles about our opening mentioned Shrewsbury but I am not aware of any indication that he was seriously considered. Had Cooley stayed at Providence, I do think he would have been among the people considered. That said, there is no reason to think Shrewsbury would have chosen Georgetown over Notre Dame. Perhaps Georgetown would have offered more money, but Shrewsbury is a midwestern guy, and so I think odds are that he would have likely gone there anyway. But in 2017, Georgetown didn't even bother to consider Hurley or anybody but Ewing, so this should not be surprising.

Cooley will be our coach for a while regardless of what happens, so we need him to win. My biggest concern: the defense. Cooley never had a defense as bad as last year's or this year's so far at Providence. What's different about Georgetown that is making it so much worse? Roster construction? We are young? I don't know, but he better figure it out. Much as I said during the early Ewing years (and even later), the best case scenario is for the program to succeed with our current coach right now. But games like today's sure do suck out the optimism.

[95hoya]

Mack was never going to come in and be an all conference performer in year 1. He’s a skilled and confident player, but plenty of teams passed on him despite this because there were plenty of signs that there would be a transition period. Epps is a terrible fit next to him.

Fielder doing absolutely nothing is the most disappointing thing. It’s on the coach to get him involved and get him going. He should be putting up 4-6 3s a game.

No one on this roster has been the main guy or one of the main guys on a quality team. Mack may get there, Sorber will get there. But the recipe isn’t there for this year. And Cooley’s style of play doesn’t allow players who are acclimating to this level to blend in quickly. We play too slow and in the modern game where players have not played with each other as much it makes no sense not to be playing at a faster tempo.