Georgetown - Notre Dame 11/16/2024 Discussion

[frozenhoya]

The overreactions here are classic. Sorber is ill, the team is young, it is early and it is only one game. Maybe this game is representative but there is a good chance that we are better than this by the time league play rolls around. Don't get me wrong, I see reasons to be concerned (Epps) and the last few years give us reasons for pessimism but don't quit on the team and expect them not to quit.

[RockawayHoya]

First game of the season I've been able to catch since I was out of country last week. Yeesh.

Although I read them, I basically ignore any offseason reports at this point because I find them meaningless. Need to see it with my own eyes. And what I saw was nearly 0 progress made. Sorber is obviously off to a hot start and clearly an upgrade over our situation at the 5 last year.

But the negatives far outweigh the positives. Starting with the staff: I wanted to see three things this offseason: 1) a return to defensive intensity and toughness, 2) improvement in strength/conditioning, and 3) better advance scouting and game planning building off that scouting. Didn't see much in the way of #2 today, and #1 and #3 were colossal failures. Saw several people remark this looked a lot like the Ewing defenses where we would overhelp at all costs, even if it meant giving 40+% 3-point shooters open looks all game and just hope that they'd be off. This is 2024. This hasn't worked for years and it won't work going forward. Worse, it looked like neither the staff nor team had any who clue who Allocco was. That's alarming. And don't give me the offensive rebounding stats and point to it as an indicator of positive activity... of course we will have more offensive boards when the opponent shoots near 60% and we shoot near 30%.

As for the players... my god we're a bad shooting team. And that might be halfway OK if the supposed plus defenders we added (Peavy, Burks, etc.) were actually that. That didn't show through for me today. It looked like we replaced a poor defender in Ish that we hoped could make shots to make up for it (he didn't) for average offensive players that we hoped to make up for it by being versatile stoppers (they didn't). Either way, it's not a good situation to have liabilities (often multiple) at both ends of the floor.

Would have liked to see some significant progress to kick off the season from the few returning players like Epps and Fielder. Can't check that box either.

Very discouraging effort from everyone involved and yes it's early, but it's also already hard to envision this as anything else but beginning to fall behind schedule.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Nov 16, 2024 15:01:02 GMT -5 jwp91 said:

Nov 16, 2024 14:54:26 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Barring a major improvement in the next month, it's hard to see how we are going to win more than a handful of Big East games, even with the better talent compared to next year. And we have no real games in the next month to really even know if we are going to improve.

Ed Cooley is likely to take a lot of crap after this game, and he deserves it. This type of performance is unacceptable.

A handful of Big East wins was the upside case. We are staring the downside case in the eyes.

I consider a handful of Big East games to be 4 or less. I don't think many thought we'd be that bad. If we are horrible again with no signs of improvement, recruiting will dry up, it'll be hard to retain players, and we will basically play the last few years on repeat once again. I haven't lost all hope we can be better, but nothing in this game gave me confidence we will be better.

[kettlehill]

I almost understood Cooley's handling of Epps last year, waiting for him to go into a rare heater, but this year he has options. He should sit his a%@ down when he starts hoisting up stupid threes. Enough already. Epps has shown that he can play in the system for brief spells- so if he refuses- bench him

[hoyasaxa2003]

Nov 16, 2024 15:21:09 GMT -5 kettlehill said:

I almost understood Cooley's handling of Epps last year, waiting for him to go into a rare heater, but this year he has options. He should sit his a%@ down when he starts hoisting up stupid threes. Enough already. Epps has shown that he can play in the system for brief spells- so if he refuses- bench him

Mack threw up a lot of horrible shots too. Should he be benched too?

[arlingtonhoya05]

My favorite posters on this board are the folks claiming the team is young, perpetually. The best way to accidentally express knowing less than nothing about modern college basketball.

[thedragon]

They sure know how to make sure a decent crowd doesn't come back.

[Elvado]

This type of performance does not augur well for when we get into deeper water.

Once again, best shooter on opposition has entirely too much time and space.

A great deal of standing around on offense followed by an ill advised hoist.

If you always do what you always do, you will always get what you always get.

Long, long slog ahead….

[prhoya]

Nov 16, 2024 14:25:13 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Nov 16, 2024 14:19:27 GMT -5 prhoya said:

Btw, for the Hoya Height Nazis, ND’s Burton is 5’11”. He’s getting whatever he wants against different Hoyas… all at least 3 inches taller than him… BIG cojones!!!

When a player has a lot of shooting skill, height is less important. We have plenty of bigger guys on our roster, but none of them can shoot efficiently.

It’s not just shooting skill. It’s: when the kid’s a player, height doesn’t matter.

Burton was all over the court controlling the game.

[EtomicB]

Nov 16, 2024 14:54:26 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Barring a major improvement in the next month, it's hard to see how we are going to win more than a handful of Big East games, even with the better talent compared to next year. And we have no real games in the next month to really even know if we are going to improve.

Ed Cooley is likely to take a lot of crap after this game, and he deserves it. This type of performance is unacceptable.

It was a bad performance but this game was not a make or break for the season. Despite failing here, however, there's still plenty of time to learn & grow.

[smokeyjack]

Nov 16, 2024 15:26:53 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Nov 16, 2024 14:54:26 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Barring a major improvement in the next month, it's hard to see how we are going to win more than a handful of Big East games, even with the better talent compared to next year. And we have no real games in the next month to really even know if we are going to improve.

Ed Cooley is likely to take a lot of crap after this game, and he deserves it. This type of performance is unacceptable.

It was a bad performance but this game was not a make or break for the season. Despite failing here, however, there's still plenty of time to learn & grow.

We are still very bad. ND in yr 2 under Shrew actually looks like a real bball team. We still look nowhere close on offense, defense, in transition or in any way. That was the worst shooting performance I can ever recall if you factor in both the caliber of the shots and the actual accuracy. Calling that game a complete shambles is too kind. It’s a comically small sample, but the team should be embarrassed.

[calhoya]

Nov 16, 2024 15:22:07 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Nov 16, 2024 15:21:09 GMT -5 kettlehill said:

I almost understood Cooley's handling of Epps last year, waiting for him to go into a rare heater, but this year he has options. He should sit his a%@ down when he starts hoisting up stupid threes. Enough already. Epps has shown that he can play in the system for brief spells- so if he refuses- bench him

Mack threw up a lot of horrible shots too. Should he be benched too?

So true. Reading these posts would lead you to believe only Epps was shockingly bad today. It was a colossal failure on the floor and on the bench. As stated earlier what comes next from this group is what matters most.

[HarbinHoya]

Nov 16, 2024 15:23:38 GMT -5 arlingtonhoya05 said:

My favorite posters on this board are the folks claiming the team is young, perpetually. The best way to accidentally express knowing less than nothing about modern college basketball.

This, completely agree. Too young, too old, give it time, they need to play together. What don’t you get about the way college works now. It would be a miracle if any of these recruits even stay more than a year without success .

[bluegray79]

Have not read any of the comments apart from frozenhoya's above, and I'm basically thinking along the same lines.

Two more cents:

I could live a full life without ever hearing John Fanta call a game again.

We played horribly and ND played the best they can play. I look forward to when our players communicate and connect and play like ND did today.

I had high hopes for this game and feel lousy with how it went, but I'm o.k. with a reality check in game 3 from our first legit challenge this season.

Bottom line for me is that we are still working things out. We are a very young team. 11-12 of our players did not know each other until July and have now played 2 scrimmages and 3 games together. So we get to witness a bunch of freshmen and sophomores make lots of youthful mistakes with teammates they are still getting to know. Add that Sorber was sick, Fielder and Julius are still not 100%, and the best combos and substitutions are still being discovered, and I think that I -- and a bunch of us here -- let my expectations get away from me what with Sorbermania and all.

If I have any worries, it's with how unable we were to set up better plays on offense. Was ND's defense that good, or do EC and staff just not have them in a place yet where they can react more effectively? I found myself thinking at several points in the game that it felt all too similar to games from the last 3, 4, 5 years, and I never want to feel that way again. Outside of Allocco shooting out of his mind, I think we did pretty well on defense. Not perfect or pretty, but o.k. overall. A C+. Offensively, it was a car wreck, and it wasn't just decent D from ND.

Last thing: ND today looked a lot like a mid-Big East team, what I imagine Xavier, Providence, or St. John's to play like., and that means we need to lock in and use these next 8 OOC games to keep taking some solid pieces and get them playing consistently at a higher level if we hope to take a big step this year. I am discouraged about today, but not by any means hopeless or in doom mode. I still really like so many of our guys and their high ceilings. Baby steps but always forward. Tough one today -- how they react will say a lot about this team and their coaches in Year 2 of the Cooley Era.

And freaking John Fanta...

[bobcat]

seems like the years change, and the Hoyas still can't shoot or defend. Same story. Maybe they should move down from Division 1 so they can compete.

[traversb]

Nov 16, 2024 15:08:14 GMT -5 kghoya said:

Nov 16, 2024 15:02:07 GMT -5 daveg023 said:

We beat this team last year in South Bend. And now they are 20 points better than us at home? That’s the opposite of progress. But we’re young right?!

Epps didn't play in that game.

I didn’t want to have to be the one that said it. Epps was far from the reason we lost today but he simply can’t play like he did today if we want to make a leap. That could be said for a number of other players today as well.

[aleutianhoya]

I had hoped coming into the year that Mack would be able to create some offense off the dribble but he really hasn't been able to get separation. And He's not a plus passer. He's really a catch and shoot guy right now. With the way they played today, I would almost rather he play off the ball. But that's not going to work either.

The offense sticks, and it's so obvious when you compare it to ND. We are running a lot of pin down stuff, which takes time, and we really don't have the shooters to make it work. Of course, when Epps has the ball, it REALLY sticks.

We aren't a good shooting team, so I don't know why we try to be a prodigious shooting team. Run some hard PNR. Work through the post. Run some Cooley-flex.

Defense. Oh my. Just so much over helping. They didn't even shoot the lights out in the 2H.

[bluegray79]

Nov 16, 2024 15:40:27 GMT -5 HarbinHoya said:

Nov 16, 2024 15:23:38 GMT -5 arlingtonhoya05 said:

My favorite posters on this board are the folks claiming the team is young, perpetually. The best way to accidentally express knowing less than nothing about modern college basketball.

This, completely agree. Too young, too old, give it time, they need to play together. What don’t you get about the way college works now. It would be a miracle if any of these recruits even stay more than a year without success .

The way college ball works now doesn't change the fact that 15 of the 17 players on this roster are freshmen and sophomores.  The "success now" model is something that EC and staff are navigating but it is clear that they have made the decision to build for the future.  Let's add to that  that 12 of these 17 had never played together before this summer.  It also is a very highly rated recruiting class by people who seem to know a lot about modern college basketball.  So, it would seem that EC knows what he's doing -- at the very least has a plan and has recruited well to carry it out.  It seems to me and lots of others who know very little and just can't understand the way college ball works now that the relative youth, inexperience, and newness are central to understanding who we are and where we are as a team. But what do we know?

[SSHoya]

Non-game observations: Good crowd for the game. Joe the Bartender at the Irish Channel makes a good Bloody Mary. That's all I got.

[saxagael]

This game showed where the Hoyas has a lot of growing up and coming together to do. The Hoyas have a lot of good players, and have usable depth at a few positions, but also some things to sort through.

The Hoyas have 5 games coming up to get some of the work done to close some of these gaps. The coordination on defense was horrible at times, but most of the times is was all players new to each other and not fully sure where they should be (until Caleb came in and actually lead them on defense, Peavy has done that hte first two games and not sure what happened this game).

Upsides:
This year there are four decent or better point guards: Mack, Peavy, Caleb, and Mulready which is a good improvement. Mack is the best, but the other three play heads up have good handles and read the court well and pass well.

Outside shooting was tough this game, but McKenna, a set shot Epps, and Mack did okay. The three bigs can shoot and make threes at better percentages than Epps has been making them this year, this will create some interesting advantages for the Hoyas if it can be used and improved upon. Outside shooting is a need and Caleb, Mulready, nor Montgomery all have good shots, but not been getting the ball when they are wide open.

Turnovers are drastically improved. Much of this is Malik and getting the ball out of Epps hands, but also having other players with decent handles and are well aware of their abilities and not over play nor over dribble, as well as good passing skills and court vision.

Rebounding this game was tough, but Julius showed really good placement and ability to pull down the ball. Burkes, Caleb, and Mack added to Sorber's boards (seemed to not be fully recovered from stomach illness).

Defense when Caleb Williams was on the floor drastically improved the defensive play of the whole team. He was barking out assignments and switches and most players were paying attention and shifting things up.

Needs work:
Off ball offense and ball movement was not great. A lot of standing around and having two guards who are ball dominant on the court as the same time is a mess, with Malik and Epps. Malik has good ball IQ and good passing, but calls his own number a bit too much when he has wide open teammates. Malik does a good job getting the ball out quickly when he is double teamed. The ball just wasn't moving quickly nor well from others. There were open players not seen and the ball held far too long by many. Part of this is lack of player movement off ball, but there seemed to be a lot of confusion (which wasn't seen as much in the first two games) with where a player should be going off ball. There were few PnRs nor drive and kick. Caleb, Peavy, and Mulready all can run PnR well with Sorber, or Fielder, but just not run. The kick outs not use when there were clear open passing lanes and double coverage on the ball was maddening and not good basketball.

Related to above outside shooting was problematic. Players were wide open outside but just not seen. A good chunk of this was with Epps and the ball in his hands, but not all Epps. The other part is players outside open and set were timid shooting when they got the ball (this will improve with more playing time and building confidence.

Defense continually was getting caught double covering on drives rather than switching off, which is lack of communicating and lack of time playing together to get to just knowing what others will be doing (this can take a month or two to get decent and sometimes a year to be really proficient). NDs off ball movement cause a lot of problems for many of the young players, but Epps sticking on a player and causing long runs for other players to cover a wide open player was really maddening (normally you do the short slide over and then of on the weak side switch). A lot of drills and playing teams that aren't as challenging will help with getting understanding of teammates movements.

Having two high volume shooters on the floor together with very high volume misses isn't a winning combination. Mack and Epps are similar players with Mack with many more strong attributes and skills and much higher ball IQ. Getting Epps to be just a set shooter for threes will help a lot, getting him off ball has been a big improvement over last year (but still on the ball far too much). The next five games to work on rotations where others are in getting minutes and passed the ball when open to build their confidence and involvement in play will have benefits in coming months.