Georgetown - Notre Dame 11/16/2024 Discussion

[3xhoya]

Nov 16, 2024 16:05:23 GMT -5 bluegray79 said:

Nov 16, 2024 15:40:27 GMT -5 HarbinHoya said:

This, completely agree. Too young, too old, give it time, they need to play together. What don’t you get about the way college works now. It would be a miracle if any of these recruits even stay more than a year without success .

The way college ball works now doesn't change the fact that 15 of the 17 players on this roster are freshmen and sophomores.  The "success now" model is something that EC and staff are navigating but it is clear that they have made the decision to build for the future.  Let's add to that  that 12 of these 17 had never played together before this summer.  It also is a very highly rated recruiting class by people who seem to know a lot about modern college basketball.  So, it would seem that EC knows what he's doing -- at the very least has a plan and has recruited well to carry it out.  It seems to me and lots of others who know very little and just can't understand the way college ball works now that the relative youth, inexperience, and newness are central to understanding who we are and where we are as a team. But what do we know?

The problem is St John’s hired a coach the same year we did. They are ranked in the top 25 and we are hoping to win a few games. There are multiple ways to advance quickly and we haven’t.

How many people will return to keep building for the future? The track record isn’t great.

[hoyariv71]

Nov 16, 2024 17:41:41 GMT -5 seaweed said:

36 minutes for each of Epps and Mack. Too much talent around for that

That is amazing the way they played, if you want to keep Mulready n McKenna they need to play when the starters are off. He should have pulled a few players and see what others can do. He has no problem pulling fielder

[reformation]

Hopefully this game will light a fire under Cooley to change some things up in terms of both lineup and scheme. In terms of recruiting, it's pretty obvious that recruiting guys who can't shoot is not going to work either, though that should not be a revelation to him.

Sorber (possibly Great), Peavey (Very Good) and Mack (Good) are roster additions to his credit. Rest of lineup + offensive/defensive schemes etc. have yet to show much.

If we don't show significant progress this year, it's hard to see how he'll get benefit of doubt with recruits/transfers.

I think we have enough talent to show some material improvement, but not enough to be a consistently excellent team. I really think we need a signature win over a ranked team to boost confidence /outlook/expectations.

[hoyasaxa2003]

For those of you who wanted large rotations, in the post-game press conference, Cooley explicitly said that 11-12 person rotations don't work, but that they are in the process of figuring out who should be in the rotation.

[hoyaroc]

Well guys our Hoyas back to the drawing board.

[hoyaroc]

Nov 16, 2024 17:40:14 GMT -5 guru said:

Nov 16, 2024 17:17:54 GMT -5 reformation said:

I guess one of the most disappointing thins I heard is that ND has a top 5 recruiting class next year. Seems like our progress is really slow. I think Cooley has made some errors in roster construction (no shooters), but it seems like we need a transformative player or 2 to put us back into contention. Not so confident re Cooley's ability to mold a group of avg guys into an elite team.

I honestly don’t remember the timeline but did we ever take a good look at Shrewsbury? I remember hearing his name - but seems like we were zeroed in on Cooley from the middle of the season. Sure seems like we picked the wrong guy - not saying Cooley is doomed, just that Shrewsbury so far is looking like the better hire.

Coach Shrewsbury was in my top 3 for the Georgetown job when Ewing got fired. I didn’t have Cooley on my list.

[seaweed]

Nov 16, 2024 19:56:04 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

For those of you who wanted large rotations, in the post-game press conference, Cooley explicitly said that 11-12 person rotations don't work, but that they are in the process of figuring out who should be in the rotation.

Begs the question Coach - do you think the 8 man rotation is working?

[jwp91]

So I like Peavy initiating the half court offense from the top of the key

[bluegray79]

The most immediate and visceral thing that hits me after reading most of these posts is how freaking quickly so many posters are to trash the whole thing and pillory Cooley. We're in game 3 of the OOC games. We're all free to lay blame where we think it is deserved, but can we really dismiss the whole thing after a few games? Just like that? Can we reasonably conclude that Cooley is the wrong man for the job, or that we have no shooters, or that we should have hired Pitino or Shrewsbury or whomever based on a throwaway season one and three games into season two with a totally revamped roster of the 12th highest ranked recruiting class in the country?
That he was a Big East coach for 12 years does little for him to recruit as he's playing in the NCAAT and no announcement had been made. What's he going to do, actively recruit while still coach of Providence? The fact that he got a UNC transfer, an Illinois transfer, and brought a Provy recruit with him maybe speaks to his ability to get high level players late in the process.

Now, whether he is more charismatic salesman than high major coach or is someone who can build a roster is still up for grabs, and I have my own reservations. But I have no choice than to let it unfold and see where it can go. No one inherited a situation and program like he did. Not St. John's, not ND. (Maybe Holtman at DePaul) He's juggling a bunch of balls that most coaches are not. And I had wanted and pushed hard here for Pitino. He may have whipped things into shape faster, but he's also a 70-something year old coach with lots of baggage, and, while I liked him, I also had some serious doubts. Plus the thought of having to hire another new coach in 4, 5 years wasn't appealing. TBH, quite frankly I prefer the vibe and looks of our program in year 2. I like the culture emerging. I think these players will grow and become a team we can get behind. I'm impatient, too -- we all are -- but I have to let it go and be realistic. If we want something real and a foundation for the program of the future, we have to give it more than a season and three games.

[DFW HOYA]

Nov 16, 2024 21:33:17 GMT -5 bluegray79 said:

The most immediate and visceral thing that hits me after reading most of these posts is how freaking quickly so many posters are to trash the whole thing and pillory Cooley. We're in game 3 of the OOC games. We're all free to lay blame where we think it is deserved, but can we really dismiss the whole thing after a few games? Just like that? Can we reasonably conclude that Cooley is the wrong man for the job, or that we have no shooters, or that we should have hired Pitino or Shrewsbury or whomever based on a throwaway season one and three games into season two with a totally revamped roster of the 12th highest ranked recruiting class in the country?
That he was a Big East coach for 12 years does little for him to recruit as he's playing in the NCAAT and no announcement had been made. What's he going to do, actively recruit while still coach of Providence? The fact that he got a UNC transfer, an Illinois transfer, and brought a Provy recruit with him maybe speaks to his ability to get high level players late in the process.

Cooley is not the problem, but I would disagree that he was in an absolutely untenable situation last spring.

1. It's likely the staff underestimated (or had little or no idea of) the lack of a formal NIL foundation at Georgetown that existed elsewhere--remember, there was no Hoyas Rising in March 2023. Georgetown missed on a lot of big candidates last spring when it could have aimed for more modest prospects.

2. 2023-24 was not bereft of talent, but many were not the pieces to fit a puzzle. Rowan Brumbaugh had no prior college experience and was expected to run the offense on day one. Dontrez Styles scored 70 points in two seasons and was suddenly elevated to be the second scoring option. Ismael Massoud had one really good NCAA game but he was really Bryson Mozone. I question whether Cooley really was going to do anything with Wayne Bristol or Jay Heath. It's not like keeping Qudus Wahab or Akok Akok was going to change the outcome either, but the staff largely underestimated how little they had added, and that's on the head coach.

Barring something stupid, this team will be a soft 7-1 heading into Morgantown. But if it's still shooting under 30 percent from three, if it does not defend the perimeter, if it's concentrating all the shots through Epps, Peavy, and Mack, if it does not address Fielder and Burks, and does not make competitive inroads against Big East teams above them, then it runs the risk of another bitter Big East season, and another rinse and repeat in the portal.

[gunny]

Nov 16, 2024 21:33:17 GMT -5 bluegray79 said:

The most immediate and visceral thing that hits me after reading most of these posts is how freaking quickly so many posters are to trash the whole thing and pillory Cooley. We're in game 3 of the OOC games. We're all free to lay blame where we think it is deserved, but can we really dismiss the whole thing after a few games? Just like that? Can we reasonably conclude that Cooley is the wrong man for the job, or that we have no shooters, or that we should have hired Pitino or Shrewsbury or whomever based on a throwaway season one and three games into season two with a totally revamped roster of the 12th highest ranked recruiting class in the country?
That he was a Big East coach for 12 years does little for him to recruit as he's playing in the NCAAT and no announcement had been made. What's he going to do, actively recruit while still coach of Providence? The fact that he got a UNC transfer, an Illinois transfer, and brought a Provy recruit with him maybe speaks to his ability to get high level players late in the process.

Now, whether he is more charismatic salesman than high major coach or is someone who can build a roster is still up for grabs, and I have my own reservations. But I have no choice than to let it unfold and see where it can go. No one inherited a situation and program like he did. Not St. John's, not ND. (Maybe Holtman at DePaul) He's juggling a bunch of balls that most coaches are not. And I had wanted and pushed hard here for Pitino. He may have whipped things into shape faster, but he's also a 70-something year old coach with lots of baggage, and, while I liked him, I also had some serious doubts. Plus the thought of having to hire another new coach in 4, 5 years wasn't appealing. TBH, quite frankly I prefer the vibe and looks of our program in year 2. I like the culture emerging. I think these players will grow and become a team we can get behind. I'm impatient, too -- we all are -- but I have to let it go and be realistic. If we want something real and a foundation for the program of the future, we have to give it more than a season and three games.

I would rather hire a coach in 4 or 5 years after coming off 3 or 4 seasons of making the NCAA tournament. This program needs a 100% overhaul from the past 10 years and Pitino would have changed how the program operates in every facet. It would have made the job look like a great destination again. Instead the same excuses just carry over from year to year.

What will the excuse be next year? Young team, lots of transfers.

[3xhoya]

Nov 16, 2024 21:33:17 GMT -5 bluegray79 said:

The most immediate and visceral thing that hits me after reading most of these posts is how freaking quickly so many posters are to trash the whole thing and pillory Cooley. We're in game 3 of the OOC games. We're all free to lay blame where we think it is deserved, but can we really dismiss the whole thing after a few games? Just like that? Can we reasonably conclude that Cooley is the wrong man for the job, or that we have no shooters, or that we should have hired Pitino or Shrewsbury or whomever based on a throwaway season one and three games into season two with a totally revamped roster of the 12th highest ranked recruiting class in the country?
That he was a Big East coach for 12 years does little for him to recruit as he's playing in the NCAAT and no announcement had been made. What's he going to do, actively recruit while still coach of Providence? The fact that he got a UNC transfer, an Illinois transfer, and brought a Provy recruit with him maybe speaks to his ability to get high level players late in the process.

Now, whether he is more charismatic salesman than high major coach or is someone who can build a roster is still up for grabs, and I have my own reservations. But I have no choice than to let it unfold and see where it can go. No one inherited a situation and program like he did. Not St. John's, not ND. (Maybe Holtman at DePaul) He's juggling a bunch of balls that most coaches are not. And I had wanted and pushed hard here for Pitino. He may have whipped things into shape faster, but he's also a 70-something year old coach with lots of baggage, and, while I liked him, I also had some serious doubts. Plus the thought of having to hire another new coach in 4, 5 years wasn't appealing. TBH, quite frankly I prefer the vibe and looks of our program in year 2. I like the culture emerging. I think these players will grow and become a team we can get behind. I'm impatient, too -- we all are -- but I have to let it go and be realistic. If we want something real and a foundation for the program of the future, we have to give it more than a season and three games.

If you wanted a quick turn around and really wanted to win it was obvious at the time Pitino was the person.

It is even more obvious now because he is doing it.

At this point there are really only two options as to what is going on with Georgetown:

1. Cooley was not the right hire and isn’t as good a coach as everyone thought.

2. There is something specific to Georgetown that is hampering the program (NIL, lack of fun environment for the players, etc)

[DanMcQ]

I find it pretty difficult to make grand sweeping prognostications of disastrous failure after only 3 games. I think we’ll have a much clearer idea in January.

[drquigley]

Was at the game. It took me this long before I could recover and comment. Forget everything else about the game, the horrid shooting, the bad defense etc. What was truly disheartening was the look on the players faces when they realized they were outclassed. I’ve seen that look over and over for the past 10 years. We all thought this year would be different. After what I saw yesterday I’m pretty sure it isn’t.

[Elvado]

Nov 17, 2024 7:56:22 GMT -5 DanMcQ said:

I find it pretty difficult to make grand sweeping prognostications of disastrous failure after only 3 games. I think we’ll have a much clearer idea in January.

Kind of reminds me of the MASH episode when Frank Burns asked “why does everyone take an instant dislike to me?”

It saves time.

[jpj]

Nov 17, 2024 8:01:26 GMT -5 drquigley said:

Was at the game. It took me this long before I could recover and comment. Forget everything else about the game, the horrid shooting, the bad defense etc. What was truly disheartening was the look on the players faces when they realized they were outclassed. I’ve seen that look over and over for the past 10 years. We all thought this year would be different. After what I saw yesterday I’m pretty sure it isn’t.

also my first game of my 10 ticket partial season ticket package
my next game is Dec18 vs Creighton
hoping we get better by then

[jwp91]

After going 4-56 in conference play the last few seasons and then apparently winning a couple of scrimmages against quality programs, then that kind of performance is very disappointing and too reminiscent of recent seasons past. The only thing that would have been worse is if Cooley had been doing off-season podcasts hyping up the guys and how good we were going to be. Thankfully he kept a low profile.

I guess Cooley’s measurement of success comment in the recent podcast was indicative of where this program really was. He wanted to measure success by everything but wins and losses.

The only thing that gives me solace is that if you think about our two best players: one was sick and the other played worse than average. We need Peavy and Sorber to be firing on all cylinders to compete against major conference opponents.

[HoyaFanNY]

Yesterday was definitely a few steps back but it's only game 3. This team is never going to win a game where they take 32 3's. ND played a bunch of zone and instead of being patient, the Hoyas just chucked up the first 3 they saw. Decision making is also a big issue.

Down 13 in the second half, the next 3 possessions were...

- Julius taking a 3 coming off a curl early in the possession. Our center taking a Steph Curry like shot.
- Epps dribbles for 15 seconds then launches a 3
- Caleb forces a shot early

The effort and execution defensively were abysmal.

Allocco is exactly the type of player that should have been a top priority in the portal.

[rhw485]

So I fully understand that yesterday was just two hours in what is a long season and even longer rebuild. But I think it’s fair to say as the first real checkpoint in season 2, yesterday was an abject failure on both the micro and macro level.

As it relates to this season, yesterdays game was a sum of all fears scenario for the current roster construction:
- Offense: I appreciate there’s a lot of complaints about Epps and to a lesser extent, Mack, based on yesterday’s performance. The first two games that blame was flipped but doesn’t really matter. For me it’s Mack and Epps were 7-17 from 3. Everyone else was 1-15. As others like SFHoya warned, Sorber wasn’t going to be able to simply carry and dominate as a freshman against high major opponents. And that’s not a knock on Sorber, that’s an unrealistic expectation for a freshman. So now you have two slashers playing together in lineups with no spacing. And yes that leads to forces and bad shots. They also lost patience in back end of 2nd half. But it’s just hard for me to blame them too much.
- Defense: I honestly didn’t think the first half defense was awful. There were glimpses of effort and cohesion that was ultimately undone by lack of detail on Alloco and then Chebuhar. No defense can survive 7/11 from 3 and none of them were lucky bailout 3s. That zone defense was a joke, a few back breakers on offensive rebounds and then a few pick and pops where nobody was in sight. The 2nd half was way more concerning. When ND wanted to run clock and get a good look, you simply put our small guards in pick and roll w a freshman big man and profit. There’s nothing one plus defender like Peavy can do to fix that. And Burks is proving unplayable on offensive end when you’re trying to score and make a comeback.

On the macro level:
I’ve pushed back against progress check ins against St John’s given we knew the way Pitino was going to operate (would anyone in Gtown tolerated when Pitino publicly ripped his team apart?). But ND is completely fair game. And they have made clear progress from year 1. Now you can talk about their continuity in terms of players coming back, but that really is an indictment of Shrewsberry finding more long term solutions in year 1 than Cooley. Throw in they’re making that progress before the killer recruiting class comes in, and their fans can see a clear trajectory.
For me, the lack of improvement from Epps and Fielder is almost equally concerning. The only way this thing turns around is if we get players to stay, develop, and improve. Only 2 relevant guys stayed, and they look like the same players.

I would say pretending the Hoyas should’ve been in on Shrewberry over Cooley is a little revisionist. He had only a couple years HC experience at Penn St and was a midwestern guy. We couldn’t afford to take risk and Cooley checked all the boxes in terms of fit. I’m almost at the point that if Cooley also fails we’re dealing w systemic issues that nobody could overcome.

This might all work itself out. Hopefully the freshman make strides each game, that’s your core and then when they’re ready we can add complimentary pieces in portal. But we’re realistically going to have to wait another month or so before we have any chance to show progress. Test 1 failed, but there will be plenty more this year and hopefully we show signs that we’re heading anywhere near the right direction.

[drquigley]

Nov 17, 2024 10:06:02 GMT -5 jpj said:

Nov 17, 2024 8:01:26 GMT -5 drquigley said:

Was at the game. It took me this long before I could recover and comment. Forget everything else about the game, the horrid shooting, the bad defense etc. What was truly disheartening was the look on the players faces when they realized they were outclassed. I’ve seen that look over and over for the past 10 years. We all thought this year would be different. After what I saw yesterday I’m pretty sure it isn’t.

also my first game of my 10 ticket partial season ticket package
my next game is Dec18 vs Creighton
hoping we get better by then

My next game is Jan 11 v. Uconn. Not looking forward to it. There is no way these guys can compete in the BE. Like I said, we've seen this before. I really thought this year would be different but it is the same thing again and again.