bluegray79
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Post by bluegray79 on Aug 29, 2023 12:47:06 GMT -5
Agreeing and intruigued by several comments here. Just want to add that, yes, Cooley entered a program that was in such bad shape that he has a bar for success that couldn't get a whole lot lower. I think everyday of what we were all griping about a year ago now or throughout this past season and what we wished and hoped for. When I do that, my blood pressure comes down and I truly believe that Cooley & staff have made real strides in several areas that we all have been wishing for 2, 3 years that Georgetown was better at (coaching, fostering a healthy basketball culture on the team and on the campus, PR, rebranding Hoya basketball, and more). Is it perfect or ideal? Of course not. Is it where we want it to be? Nope. Is it damn solid, even impressive and admirable to be where we are after just 5 months? Hell, yeah. Again, don't underestimate what EC inherited and how bad we have been for 6-10 years. He's jumping in and getting a lot done -- kudos to him and his staff.
And we have to be real -- Cooley is a competitor and wants to win as badly as we all do. Frankly, I think he's exceeded any reasonable expectations with the roster he has assembled. It's clearly a roster to get us to '24, develop the younger players who will be here after this year, establish the expectations and culture that are Hoys basketball under a coach that has proven he can rebuild a struggling program and create a winning tradition. To me, the real start to the Cooley Era at Georgetown will be next year, and this summer and the season ahead are connecting dots and putting in place the pieces of a team built to compete at the highest level. What EC said 4 months ago and what has come to be may be different than what he and we hoped for, but, again, to take a program with the buzz it has had for several years and expect anyone to recruit 4 and 5 star players his first year is unrealistic no matter what he said. Sure, EC has to talk a good game to attract donors and reengage fans -- it's part of what coaches do. It's not disingenuous or misleading, but it is part of the job very often. And remember that he almost always is quick to add that we will hit bumps, we will struggle, but we will play hard and look to improve every game.
I was also a big Pitino fan and wrote emails to the board and argued here for his hiring. Maybe if he were here, we'd have a few more 4 and 5 stars this year. But, truthfully, I feel better now about the near and long term future of the program with Cooley for all the reasons many of you have said in support of him. He won't be bowing out in 4-6 years and leaving us to do this all over agin, and maybe the move to the Hilltop and all it brings with it will be what EC will need to get us back in the NCAAs and past the Sweet 16 in the next 2, 3, 4 years. Beats the hell out of what we were wringing our hands about just 8-12 months ago.
This season is going to be insane in the Big East, the best basketball conference in the country. So pumped to see the games both live and at home, and sincerely hopeful for some great Hoya basketball moments ahead. Hoya Saxa -- let's go!!!!
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 29, 2023 14:14:25 GMT -5
I don't really get the scholarship criticism. You can criticize Cooley for not getting an impact big, I guess, but there is no reason to fill the roster with poor players. Who cares that we didn't pay for a transfer who we won't play anyway?
There were only two guys I actively wanted to keep: Riley and Akok. Riley seemed gone from say one, sadly, and Akok chased the money. Both were nice to haves. We're not a better team without them, but their importance is getting way overblown by people who want to criticize a coach even without a game.
There were players who would be worse if they stayed; I am glad they are gone and I don't expect them to ever be part of a winning team ...
... which gets me to, why does everyone obsess so much over these pre-conceived notions of players? I'll take one so-called guru on here who, since they've been on here, has told me Mac McClung would never be a D1 player, that Aminu Muhammad was an NBA first rounder and that Brandon Murray was a star.
McClung is a borderline NBA player, it took me one game to see Muhammad's hops would keep him out of being a first round pick, and just a game or two to see Murray is completely uninterested in anything but his own numbers.
People are so sure this roster is terrible when they haven't seen much of it ever play a game, and none of it together. Let's see how this goes.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Aug 29, 2023 14:38:42 GMT -5
I don't really get the scholarship criticism. You can criticize Cooley for not getting an impact big, I guess, but there is no reason to fill the roster with poor players. Who cares that we didn't pay for a transfer who we won't play anyway? There were only two guys I actively wanted to keep: Riley and Akok. Riley seemed gone from say one, sadly, and Akok chased the money. Both were nice to haves. We're not a better team without them, but their importance is getting way overblown by people who want to criticize a coach even without a game. There were players who would be worse if they stayed; I am glad they are gone and I don't expect them to ever be part of a winning team ... ... which gets me to, why does everyone obsess so much over these pre-conceived notions of players? I'll take one so-called guru on here who, since they've been on here, has told me Mac McClung would never be a D1 player, that Aminu Muhammad was an NBA first rounder and that Brandon Murray was a star. McClung is a borderline NBA player, it took me one game to see Muhammad's hops would keep him out of being a first round pick, and just a game or two to see Murray is completely uninterested in anything but his own numbers. People are so sure this roster is terrible when they haven't seen much of it ever play a game, and none of it together. Let's see how this goes. Very good points. Two things: 1. The other problem with having poor players on the roster who don't play much is that it can cause guys to get disgruntled because they all think they can and should play. 2. Also, if you bring in graduate or more experienced transfers who are mediocre-to-bad, those guys will take playing time away from some of the younger guys, which could potentially make us a little better for a year, but it's not going to help long term, while taking playing time away from guys like Brumbaugh, Epps, Fielder, and Styles who are going to be around for a much longer period of time. I just find this discussion amusing. For years, the pre-season discussion has been about people wondering what we are going to do because, man, we are so deep! We have so much depth! And at least recently, that depth has proven to largely be a mirage. I think there's an equal chance that the fretting about the roster depth turns out not to be an issue at all. But mostly, let's actually watch the roster play before making broad proclamations about it. HoyaTalk predictions in years past have frequently been extremely wrong; there's a pretty good likelihood that will happen again. |
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Aug 29, 2023 15:00:40 GMT -5
There are three different arguments here, just as there are three distinct groups of transfers. 1. Three players left at the start: Anglin, Bass and Riley. It didn't matter who was coming, they simply had a bad experience under Ewing & Co. and needed a fresh start. Jordan Riley could have been a solid four year player for Georgetown, along the lines of a Jagan Mosely, but his output had fallen so far (from POY in New York State to a 4 for 28 shooting slump in his last nine games to end the season) that he needed a clean break. 2. Two players left as graduate transfers: Wilson and Wahab. That's all GU could have asked of them. If Wilson is settling in Charlotte after college, a local MBA is a good fit, and he wasn't seeing much time here anyway. Wahab got his degree (good for him) and if NIL allows him to get his nine points a game at Penn State instead of nine at Georgetown, no issue there. 3. The third group is the Traveling Nickelberrys (Murray, Spears, Ezewiro). They did not come to Georgetown for cura personalis or the networking opportunities therein, and they left because someone offered them more elsewhere. These were the kind of players the elder Thompson famously steered clear of, because their work ethic and loyalty would never be more than who held out the best offer. Instead of working the high school ranks, Ewing went the short-term route with these three and they responded for him in kind. To some degree, Akok appears to be somewhere between groups 2 and 3, though if he got a backdoor degree at UConn to get out of Georgetown and gain immediate eligibility, let him go. The arguments about Cooley with nine scholarships on the roster come down to three arguments/questions: 1. Did the staff expect players to follow from Providence? There was initial chatter about this but English and the PC boosters cut this off at the start. 2. Is Georgetown ever going to be competitive with P3 collectives? Cooley was out early on the NIL train (remember the early pitch for TCU's Eddie Lampkin?) but every player GU was targeting then got a presumably better offer in a major conference. Putting aside the cloudy nature of where Hoyas Rising fits into all this, this isn't Michigan, and recruits know it. 3. Is 2023-24 a mulligan for Cooley anyway? Anything more than seven wins is progress, and if the staff ties these three grants to Top 100 candidates in 2024, that's what people will remember. Georgetown may be bringing a knife to a NIL gun battle. |
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Aug 29, 2023 15:11:50 GMT -5
There are three different arguments here, just as there are three distinct groups of transfers. 1. Three players left at the start: Anglin, Bass and Riley. It didn't matter who was coming, they simply had a bad experience under Ewing & Co. and needed a fresh start. Jordan Riley could have been a solid four year player for Georgetown, along the lines of a Jagan Mosely, but his output had fallen so far (from POY in New York State to a 4 for 28 shooting slump in his last nine games to end the season) that he needed a clean break. 2. Two players left as graduate transfers: Wilson and Wahab. That's all GU could have asked of them. If Wilson is settling in Charlotte after college, a local MBA is a good fit, and he wasn't seeing much time here anyway. Wahab got his degree (good for him) and if NIL allows him to get his nine points a game at Penn State instead of nine at Georgetown, no issue there. 3. The third group is the Traveling Nickelberrys (Murray, Spears, Ezewiro). They did not come to Georgetown for cura personalis or the networking opportunities therein, and they left because someone offered them more elsewhere. These were the kind of players the elder Thompson famously steered clear of, because their work ethic and loyalty would never be more than who held out the best offer. Instead of working the high school ranks, Ewing went the short-term route with these three and they responded for him in kind. To some degree, Akok appears to be somewhere between groups 2 and 3, though if he got a backdoor degree at UConn to get out of Georgetown and gain immediate eligibility, let him go. The arguments about Cooley with nine scholarships on the roster come down to three arguments/questions: 1. Did the staff expect players to follow from Providence? There was initial chatter about this but English and the PC boosters cut this off at the start. 2. Is Georgetown ever going to be competitive with P3 collectives? Cooley was out early on the NIL train (remember the early pitch for TCU's Eddie Lampkin?) but every player GU was targeting then got a presumably better offer in a major conference. Putting aside the cloudy nature of where Hoyas Rising fits into all this, this isn't Michigan, and recruits know it. 3. Is 2023-24 a mulligan for Cooley anyway? Anything more than seven wins is progress, and if the staff ties these three grants to Top 100 candidates in 2024, that's what people will remember. Georgetown may be bringing a knife to a NIL gun battle. We're bringing what Ed Cooley asked us to bring when he left Providence... "Reed said that the program has identified $3,000,000 per year as the level of NIL budget they need to be competitive in today’s college basketball environment. Reed also said they plan on hiring for an NIL management/operations position at some point (it was not specified if that position would be specific to men’s basketball only, or to the whole athletic department). This $3 million target figure can fluctuate though, depending on donor support, as well as if the program uses the whole budget every season or carries over some unused funds into future seasons. Wouldn’t surprise me if that number increases eventually, if Cooley continues his early fundraising wizardry.... In casual conversations with alumni and donors off-stage and at other JCW events, Ed Cooley is continuing to express a lot of confidence about the roster the team will have next season. He doesn’t seem worried about what awaits if Hunter Dickinson passes on Georgetown." hilltophoops.substack.com/p/john-carroll-weekend-georgetown-cooley |
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Aug 29, 2023 15:16:19 GMT -5
I don't really get the scholarship criticism. You can criticize Cooley for not getting an impact big, I guess, but there is no reason to fill the roster with poor players. Who cares that we didn't pay for a transfer who we won't play anyway? There were only two guys I actively wanted to keep: Riley and Akok. Riley seemed gone from say one, sadly, and Akok chased the money. Both were nice to haves. We're not a better team without them, but their importance is getting way overblown by people who want to criticize a coach even without a game. There were players who would be worse if they stayed; I am glad they are gone and I don't expect them to ever be part of a winning team ... ... which gets me to, why does everyone obsess so much over these pre-conceived notions of players? I'll take one so-called guru on here who, since they've been on here, has told me Mac McClung would never be a D1 player, that Aminu Muhammad was an NBA first rounder and that Brandon Murray was a star. McClung is a borderline NBA player, it took me one game to see Muhammad's hops would keep him out of being a first round pick, and just a game or two to see Murray is completely uninterested in anything but his own numbers. People are so sure this roster is terrible when they haven't seen much of it ever play a game, and none of it together. Let's see how this goes. Very good points. Two things: 1. The other problem with having poor players on the roster who don't play much is that it can cause guys to get disgruntled because they all think they can and should play. 2. Also, if you bring in graduate or more experienced transfers who are mediocre-to-bad, those guys will take playing time away from some of the younger guys, which could potentially make us a little better for a year, but it's not going to help long term, while taking playing time away from guys like Brumbaugh, Epps, Fielder, and Styles who are going to be around for a much longer period of time . I just find this discussion amusing. For years, the pre-season discussion has been about people wondering what we are going to do because, man, we are so deep! We have so much depth! And at least recently, that depth has proven to largely be a mirage. I think there's an equal chance that the fretting about the roster depth turns out not to be an issue at all. But mostly, let's actually watch the roster play before making broad proclamations about it. HoyaTalk predictions in years past have frequently been extremely wrong; there's a pretty good likelihood that will happen again. Styles only has 2 more years of eligibility, including this one. Epps was recruited as, and is being paid NIL $ as, somebody who is not going to be here for all 3 years of his remaining eligibility. Brumbaugh and Fielder will be here for awhile, I agree with that. The question is whether they're physically capable of handling big minutes for a Big East team that plans to be competitive. I expect Brumbaugh to play ~20 minutes/game this season and be good offensively, bad defensively. Fielder probably shouldn't play more than 15 minutes/game this season, but due to our lack of depth up front, he might play more. |
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dense
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Post by dense on Aug 29, 2023 16:51:28 GMT -5
I don't really get the scholarship criticism. You can criticize Cooley for not getting an impact big, I guess, but there is no reason to fill the roster with poor players. Who cares that we didn't pay for a transfer who we won't play anyway? There were only two guys I actively wanted to keep: Riley and Akok. Riley seemed gone from say one, sadly, and Akok chased the money. Both were nice to haves. We're not a better team without them, but their importance is getting way overblown by people who want to criticize a coach even without a game. There were players who would be worse if they stayed; I am glad they are gone and I don't expect them to ever be part of a winning team ... ... which gets me to, why does everyone obsess so much over these pre-conceived notions of players? I'll take one so-called guru on here who, since they've been on here, has told me Mac McClung would never be a D1 player, that Aminu Muhammad was an NBA first rounder and that Brandon Murray was a star. McClung is a borderline NBA player, it took me one game to see Muhammad's hops would keep him out of being a first round pick, and just a game or two to see Murray is completely uninterested in anything but his own numbers. People are so sure this roster is terrible when they haven't seen much of it ever play a game, and none of it together. Let's see how this goes. Slow Clap 👏 |
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Aug 29, 2023 17:01:51 GMT -5
This is the dead news time where we have to speculate, pontificate, and make debate for debate’s sake.
Soon enough there’ll be real games to dissect and determine how good this team is. Until then it’s just message board fodder now that there isn’t anything left to focus on until the season starts.
I think the fact we have a real coaching staff and players who want to be here are my biggest reasons for optimism that the whole may be better than the sum of the parts, as often was the case for Cooley’s PC’s teams.
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jackofjoy
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Post by jackofjoy on Aug 29, 2023 21:19:37 GMT -5
Cooley didn’t name the players. Paraphrasing from his interviews, he said that he didn’t want anyone who didn’t want to be here or who didn’t understand what it meant to be here. I have no problem with Cooley ditching talented but selfish players like Brandon Murray and Primo Spears, particularly as he tries to build a culture. Cooley likely opened up a bunch of NIL money when he got rid of those guys as well. That said, both ended up at programs that are probably in better situations than Georgetown is right now (Ole Miss and Florida State, respectively). There was a market for them as other really good coaches (including Bill Self at Kansas, who recruited Spears) saw the talent, even though they were horrribly mismanaged by Patrick Ewing. Qudus Wahab went to Penn State, a program arguably as good or better than Georgetown. We absolutely could have used him in 2023-2024, particularly knowing what our bigs rotation is now (I recognize hindsight is 20-20). Akok Akok trained with us all summer and the program was putting him in Twitter videos a week before he left, so pretty clear the coaching staff wanted to keep him. He's going to a West Virginia program that is probably in a better position than Georgetown heading into the 2023-2024 season. Those are 4 talented guys who, with the right coaching, could have helped the 2023-2024 team. That's not even counting guys like Ezewiro and Riley who went to high-end mid-majors and could probably have helped as well. Nope. No more black holes in the post position please. It’s 2023 not 1999. |
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Aug 29, 2023 21:48:08 GMT -5
I don't really get the scholarship criticism. You can criticize Cooley for not getting an impact big, I guess, but there is no reason to fill the roster with poor players. Who cares that we didn't pay for a transfer who we won't play anyway? There were only two guys I actively wanted to keep: Riley and Akok. Riley seemed gone from say one, sadly, and Akok chased the money. Both were nice to haves. We're not a better team without them, but their importance is getting way overblown by people who want to criticize a coach even without a game. There were players who would be worse if they stayed; I am glad they are gone and I don't expect them to ever be part of a winning team ... ... which gets me to, why does everyone obsess so much over these pre-conceived notions of players? I'll take one so-called guru on here who, since they've been on here, has told me Mac McClung would never be a D1 player, that Aminu Muhammad was an NBA first rounder and that Brandon Murray was a star. McClung is a borderline NBA player, it took me one game to see Muhammad's hops would keep him out of being a first round pick, and just a game or two to see Murray is completely uninterested in anything but his own numbers. People are so sure this roster is terrible when they haven't seen much of it ever play a game, and none of it together. Let's see how this goes. In my “decades of experience”, I have never heard that it’s a good idea, or not that bad, to go into a season with 9 scholarship players… after all, a team doesn’t use a rotarion bigger than 9 to 10 players. What?! On the other hand, I understand how it’s a good idea to keep one scholarship open. It seems to me like a lot of excuses or sour grapes… |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Aug 29, 2023 22:04:04 GMT -5
Georgetown may be bringing a knife to a NIL gun battle. We're bringing what Ed Cooley asked us to bring when he left Providence... "Reed said that the program has identified $3,000,000 per year as the level of NIL budget they need to be competitive in today’s college basketball environment. Reed also said they plan on hiring for an NIL management/operations position at some point (it was not specified if that position would be specific to men’s basketball only, or to the whole athletic department). This $3 million target figure can fluctuate though, depending on donor support, as well as if the program uses the whole budget every season or carries over some unused funds into future seasons. Wouldn’t surprise me if that number increases eventually, if Cooley continues his early fundraising wizardry.... In casual conversations with alumni and donors off-stage and at other JCW events, Ed Cooley is continuing to express a lot of confidence about the roster the team will have next season. He doesn’t seem worried about what awaits if Hunter Dickinson passes on Georgetown." hilltophoops.substack.com/p/john-carroll-weekend-georgetown-cooleyThe $3 million, I think is enough to make us competitive. But it's not enough to drop $2 million on someone like Dickinson, either. So, while I think we will be in a better place than we were under Ewing, I think anybody who expects us to be able to keep up with the huge football state schools when it comes to money are delusional. People also do not always seem to understand how NIL works. While Georgetown University can make efforts to faciliate NIL, the money itself comes from outside donors. So, getting that $3 million budget is wholly dependent on selling donors on giving the money. If Ed Cooley "got" a $3 million budget from Georgetown, that's Georgetown speculating that with their donors, etc., they think they can achieve something of that magnitude. I think it is also reflective of the fact that Georgetown likely made it clear they would not block NIL efforts in trying to be holier than thou (recall DeGioia's comments last summer in London). So, we are in the game, but it remains to be seen how competitive we will be. While Ed Cooley will surely be a major factor in fundraising, attracting donors, and facilitating the relationships to foster NIL donations--and I am very confident he will be successful in doing that--the limitations of Georgetown are the limitations of Georgetown. In the Big East, I think we are well positioned, but it will be hard to keep up with the football conferences. This is something we are all going to have to be at peace with, as long as the rules are in place. I think $3 million in NIL (if that is a real number) will keep us competitive--it might even be an advantage for a while. But, as the other schools/alumni develop their NIL (and many of them are ahead of us), I think the odds Georgetown will be able to stay competitive long-term on NIL are not great. That said, one donor with huge amounts of money could change the calculus. So, you never know. |
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TC
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Post by TC on Aug 30, 2023 7:32:43 GMT -5
In my “decades of experience”, I have never heard that it’s a good idea, or not that bad, to go into a season with 9 scholarship players… after all, a team doesn’t use a rotarion bigger than 10 players. What?! On the other hand, I understand how it’s a good idea to keep one scholarship open. It seems to me like a lot of excuses or sour grapes… What about keeping two scholarships open? How much of this is really about having 3 scholarships open vs. about the Akok scholarship opening up late? Meanwhile, over at Notre Dame where they hired the guy we think was choice #2 for the Georgetown job : |
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Aug 30, 2023 7:37:34 GMT -5
In my “decades of experience”, I have never heard that it’s a good idea, or not that bad, to go into a season with 9 scholarship players… after all, a team doesn’t use a rotarion bigger than 10 players. What?! On the other hand, I understand how it’s a good idea to keep one scholarship open. It seems to me like a lot of excuses or sour grapes… What about keeping two scholarships open? How much of this is really about having 3 scholarships open vs. about the Akok scholarship opening up late. Meanwhile, over at Notre Dame where they hired the guy we think was choice #2 for the Georgetown job : I thought #2 was Pitino, but anyway this is how one of the best all-time is doing it: www.si.com/.amp/college/2023/07/19/rick-pitino-is-making-st-johns-a-recruiting-powerhouse |
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TC
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Post by TC on Aug 30, 2023 7:39:51 GMT -5
Pretty sure Pitino wasn't ever actually in consideration for the job by the person making the decision and Shrewsberry was #2. |
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Aug 30, 2023 7:42:01 GMT -5
Wait, rebuilding takes work, and time?
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Aug 30, 2023 7:48:59 GMT -5
Pretty sure Pitino wasn't ever actually in consideration for the job by the person making the decision and Shrewsberry was #2. Ehh, I wouldn’t be that sure, but that’s beside the point. Btw, as of now, it’s 4 open scholarships. |
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Post by bearsandbulls on Aug 30, 2023 7:57:39 GMT -5
Most coaches would not like a 9 man roster...But scholarships don't have to be given to fill same. Reason, players are needed for practice. Thus PWO added, schollies saved.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Aug 30, 2023 8:02:58 GMT -5
Most coaches would not like a 9 man roster...But scholarships don't have to be given to fill same. Reason, players are needed for practice. Thus PWO added, schollies saved. As has been discussed here, scholarships are renewed every year. Besides, if there’s a plan to fill the scholarships the following year, then the answer is scholarship-caliber players with one year of eligibility. |
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Aug 30, 2023 8:09:49 GMT -5
There are pros and cons to every scenario. It seems clear that there will be some challenges this year while Cooley is rebuilding for 2024-2025 and beyond. He deserves ample support and patience.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Aug 30, 2023 8:21:00 GMT -5
THe last line of that Pitino article seals it for me. Pitino saying Iona was it and then leaving them with one scholly player and little to build on is why a Cooley build is superior to a Pitino build. Transfers make roster construction very difficult. St. Johns is definitely going to have a locker room with some very disgruntled players this year. Do they transfer or quit, or is the drama so big that it brings down the performance on the court?
What does year 2 of pitino look like? I feel like we will be in a better spot with the two to three year rebuild vs. the one year. We gotta get old with experienced players in our system. That isn't a four year player anymore but it means your key guys & facilitators have to be on board. That is why the Epps/Brumbaugh pairing is so intriguing to me. That is a three to four year back court.
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