The current state of our Hoya basketball program

[MCIGuy]

Oct 14, 2024 11:31:31 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Encouraged by the rebounding numbers. Poor rebounding caused a cascade of defensive choices that never got solved last year.

Rebounding should not be a problem this season. Nor should quality interior depth.

[Lethal_Interjection]

[prhoya]

Oct 14, 2024 13:09:14 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

Oct 14, 2024 11:31:31 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Encouraged by the rebounding numbers. Poor rebounding caused a cascade of defensive choices that never got solved last year.

Rebounding should not be a problem this season. Nor should quality interior depth.

Proper rebounding technique should be a focus of the season. On the defensive side, opponents should know that they will get only one shot at the basket per possession.

[78HOYA78]

Agree: I remember the days when opponents would not dare come in the paint and rebounding was not an issue. We usually had an enforcer lurking around. That was our identity.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Oct 17, 2024 7:29:17 GMT -5 78HOYA78 said:

Agree: I remember the days when opponents would not dare come in the paint and rebounding was not an issue. We usually had an enforcer lurking around. That was our identity.

To be fair, the games are called differently now. Unless they are super talented, enforcers cannot usually lurk around for very long without foul trouble.

But defensive (and offensive) rebounding is a basic skill. We need to do much better on that than we did last year.

[astrohoya]

Oct 17, 2024 7:29:17 GMT -5 78HOYA78 said:

Agree: I remember the days when opponents would not dare come in the paint and rebounding was not an issue. We usually had an enforcer lurking around. That was our identity.

This sort of player, whether it Michael Graham in college or Bill Laimbeer in the NBA has either evolved or disappeared. You can no longer defend the paint simply by tackling anybody who tried a layup.

Rebounding is very much still a skill, and an important one, but it requires people with said skill, not just a goon.

[DFW HOYA]

Oct 18, 2024 19:16:50 GMT -5 astrohoya said:

This sort of player, whether it Michael Graham in college or Bill Laimbeer in the NBA has either evolved or disappeared. You can no longer defend the paint simply by tackling anybody who tried a layup. Rebounding is very much still a skill, and an important one, but it requires people with said skill, not just a goon.

Graham was not that. He averaged 1.6 fouls per game over a 35 game career, and never fouled out of a game.

[astrohoya]

Oct 18, 2024 19:30:23 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Oct 18, 2024 19:16:50 GMT -5 astrohoya said:

This sort of player, whether it Michael Graham in college or Bill Laimbeer in the NBA has either evolved or disappeared. You can no longer defend the paint simply by tackling anybody who tried a layup. Rebounding is very much still a skill, and an important one, but it requires people with said skill, not just a goon.

Graham was not that. He averaged 1.6 fouls per game over a 35 game career, and never fouled out of a game.

He played 14 minutes a game and has a Facebook page where he refers to himself as “The Enforcer”

[AvantGuardHoya]

I would characterize shaved headed Graham as an intimidator more than anything else. That can be accomplished in ways that have nothing to do with actually fouling. I vividly remember during a stoppage in play versus Villanova in Philadelphia that Graham took the opportunity to show a Wildcat (Pinckney?) how his elbow could graze the player's head. There was no contact, but I suspect the message was delivered and received. We won the game by a dozen points.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Oct 18, 2024 19:30:23 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Oct 18, 2024 19:16:50 GMT -5 astrohoya said:

This sort of player, whether it Michael Graham in college or Bill Laimbeer in the NBA has either evolved or disappeared. You can no longer defend the paint simply by tackling anybody who tried a layup. Rebounding is very much still a skill, and an important one, but it requires people with said skill, not just a goon.

Graham was not that. He averaged 1.6 fouls per game over a 35 game career, and never fouled out of a game.

Looking at how many fouls he had per 40 minutes is more instructive. If my math is correct, he averaged about 3.8 fouls per 40 minutes, which is a fairly high foul rate.

But still, that is part of the point. In 1983-1984, the referees allowed players to play more without fouls. Harder contact was allowed. By modern standards, that 3.8 fouls per 40 minutes would likely be higher assuming that everyone played as they did in 1984.

The other flaw in using comparisons to the old days is that having a great rim enforcer was way more important since the most efficient shots then were near the basket and you didn't have to defend threes. That said, defending the rim is still super important, but three point defense is super important now too. In 1984, it wasn't a factor.

[professorhoya]

Oct 19, 2024 22:45:07 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Oct 18, 2024 19:30:23 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Graham was not that. He averaged 1.6 fouls per game over a 35 game career, and never fouled out of a game.

Looking at how many fouls he had per 40 minutes is more instructive. If my math is correct, he averaged about 3.8 fouls per 40 minutes, which is a fairly high foul rate.

But still, that is part of the point. In 1983-1984, the referees allowed players to play more without fouls. Harder contact was allowed. By modern standards, that 3.8 fouls per 40 minutes would likely be higher assuming that everyone played as they did in 1984.

The other flaw in using comparisons to the old days is that having a great rim enforcer was way more important since the most efficient shots then were near the basket and you didn't have to defend threes. That said, defending the rim is still super important, but three point defense is super important now too. In 1984, it wasn't a factor.

A finesse player with a frail body like Durant or Wemby would not have survived under the eighties rules set.

1. They would get pushed around both on offense and defense in the low post and with rebounding.

2. They would physically get beat up especially in the legs and knees leading to alot of injuries and short careers. Ralph Sampson is an example of this. Frail body but great height, length and skill like Wemby but physicality led to knee issues which shortened his career as a dominant big man.

3. Mutombo space creating elbows were allowed back then but I guess are illegal now under the pansy modern rules.

[SSHoya]

Oct 19, 2024 23:32:58 GMT -5 professorhoya said:

Oct 19, 2024 22:45:07 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Looking at how many fouls he had per 40 minutes is more instructive. If my math is correct, he averaged about 3.8 fouls per 40 minutes, which is a fairly high foul rate.

But still, that is part of the point. In 1983-1984, the referees allowed players to play more without fouls. Harder contact was allowed. By modern standards, that 3.8 fouls per 40 minutes would likely be higher assuming that everyone played as they did in 1984.

The other flaw in using comparisons to the old days is that having a great rim enforcer was way more important since the most efficient shots then were near the basket and you didn't have to defend threes. That said, defending the rim is still super important, but three point defense is super important now too. In 1984, it wasn't a factor.

A finesse player with a frail body like Durant or Wemby would not have survived under the eighties rules set.

1. They would get pushed around both on offense and defense in the low post and with rebounding.

2. They would physically get beat up especially in the legs and knees leading to alot of injuries and short careers. Ralph Sampson is an example of this. Frail body but great height, length and skill like Wemby but physicality led to knee issues which shortened his career as a dominant big man.

3. Mutombo space creating elbows were allowed back then but I guess are illegal now under the pansy modern rules.

Old timers will remember the six foul experiment.

August 10, 1989, the news went out over the wires:

The Big East Conference will allow basketball players six fouls instead of five next season in an experiment that critics say will hurt underdogs by making it harder to get other teams’ star players out of games.

The six-foul rule and the proposed use of the 45-second clock rather than a hand count to measure 10-second violations were approved by a vote of the Big East coaches.

To put it bluntly, the Big East experiment was something of a disaster, though not to Jim Boeheim and Jim Calhoun. “Our league was just as physical with five fouls,” Boeheim said with crusty and defiant truculence (it’s true!) in 1992 when the six-foul rule was ended.

johngasaway.com/2019/01/07/a-very-brief-history-of-the-big-easts-1990s-era-experiment-with-six-fouls/#:~:text=On%20August%2010%2C%201989%2C%20the,star%20players%20out%20of%20games.

[EtomicB]

[sweetness]

Big news. It will be interesting to see how this impacts the hoops program.

The performance of the program over the last 10 years does not exactly stand up to scrutiny.

[hoyaguy]

The social media team from the main account has definitely improved imo for those that care.

[Elvado]

Nov 21, 2024 14:20:24 GMT -5 sweetness said:

Big news. It will be interesting to see how this impacts the hoops program.

The performance of the program over the last 10 years does not exactly stand up to scrutiny.

With all due respect and appreciation to Jack and all best wishes for his recovery, this is at worst, chicken soup in so much as it can’t hurt.

As DFW describes, institutional inertia and rot have kneecapped the program.

A change at the top is an opportunity not to be missed.

[drquigley]

Nov 22, 2024 5:25:47 GMT -5 Elvado said:

Nov 21, 2024 14:20:24 GMT -5 sweetness said:

Big news. It will be interesting to see how this impacts the hoops program.

The performance of the program over the last 10 years does not exactly stand up to scrutiny.

With all due respect and appreciation to Jack and all best wishes for his recovery, this is at worst, chicken soup in so much as it can’t hurt.

As DFW describes, institutional inertia and rot have kneecapped the program.

A change at the top is an opportunity not to be missed.

I hate to tell you guys this but judging a college President by how well his men's basketball team performs is a lot like judging a US President by how well our men's Olympic volleyball team does. I have issues with DeGoia but they involve his failure to make GU affordable to families like mine and many of my SFS '68 classmates. I realize this is a national problem but I fear that by becoming a haven for very smart kids from very rich families we have lost the kind of student body that me and most of my first generation American classmates were part of. Yes it is good that the student body is more diverse racially and ethnically but class is till king and I wonder how welcoming the University feels to kids from poor or lower class families. And ironically this could be having an impact on our ability to attract or retain talented bball players from those families.

[Elvado]

Nov 22, 2024 11:04:41 GMT -5 drquigley said:

Nov 22, 2024 5:25:47 GMT -5 Elvado said:

With all due respect and appreciation to Jack and all best wishes for his recovery, this is at worst, chicken soup in so much as it can’t hurt.

As DFW describes, institutional inertia and rot have kneecapped the program.

A change at the top is an opportunity not to be missed.

I hate to tell you guys this but judging a college President by how well his men's basketball team performs is a lot like judging a US President by how well our men's Olympic volleyball team does. I have issues with DeGoia but they involve his failure to make GU affordable to families like mine and many of my SFS '68 classmates. I realize this is a national problem but I fear that by becoming a haven for very smart kids from very rich families we have lost the kind of student body that me and most of my first generation American classmates were part of. Yes it is good that the student body is more diverse racially and ethnically but class is till king and I wonder how welcoming the University feels to kids from poor or lower class families. And ironically this could be having an impact on our ability to attract or retain talented bball players from those families.

The question to which I responded was how might Jack’s departure impact the basketball program.

I think he has had an active (too active) hand in major decisions that have not worked out for the program (most generous way I can say it).

Thus, I believe his departure is an opportunity for improvement in the basketball program.

My opinions on the rest of his stewardship are not part of that answer.

[jackofjoy]

Nov 22, 2024 11:04:41 GMT -5 drquigley said:

Nov 22, 2024 5:25:47 GMT -5 Elvado said:

With all due respect and appreciation to Jack and all best wishes for his recovery, this is at worst, chicken soup in so much as it can’t hurt.

As DFW describes, institutional inertia and rot have kneecapped the program.

A change at the top is an opportunity not to be missed.

I hate to tell you guys this but judging a college President by how well his men's basketball team performs is a lot like judging a US President by how well our men's Olympic volleyball team does. I have issues with DeGoia but they involve his failure to make GU affordable to families like mine and many of my SFS '68 classmates. I realize this is a national problem but I fear that by becoming a haven for very smart kids from very rich families we have lost the kind of student body that me and most of my first generation American classmates were part of. Yes it is good that the student body is more diverse racially and ethnically but class is till king and I wonder how welcoming the University feels to kids from poor or lower class families. And ironically this could be having an impact on our ability to attract or retain talented bball players from those families.

All due respect, terrible analogy.  Maybe the incoming administration will micromanage down to the level of selecting head coaches for Olympic sports, but let's not kid ourselves - Jack was deeply tied to men's basketball.