guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,654
|
Post by guru on Nov 27, 2016 23:51:16 GMT -5
I think the signs in the Verizon center and the people holding them were classless and disgraceful. I for one am hoping for the best for this young team and Coach, and prefer to wait and pass judgement later on as the season progresses. There are many more games to be played and I am really tired of all this negativity. They are students first, players second, and fine young men. Lets give them the respect that they deserve. Go Hoyas! Yeah, whoever did that should be ashamed. Its one thing if pro-sports fans want to try to embarrass their team for poor performance. Pro athletes are well compensated adults who deserve to be judged on performance alone. College athletes are a whole other story and deserve to be treated better than that, regardless of the team or individual performance level. I'd expect bags/insulting signs/other stupid displays from a fan base like Syracuse, not from Hoya fans. The signs I have seen were all critical of the coach, who is a highly paid professional. If there were signs about players I missed them.
|
|
eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
|
Post by eagle54 on Nov 27, 2016 23:52:43 GMT -5
I think the signs in the Verizon center and the people holding them were classless and disgraceful. I for one am hoping for the best for this young team and Coach, and prefer to wait and pass judgement later on as the season progresses. There are many more games to be played and I am really tired of all this negativity. They are students first, players second, and fine young men. Lets give them the respect that they deserve. Go Hoyas! Yeah, whoever did that should be ashamed. Its one thing if pro-sports fans want to try to embarrass their team for poor performance. Pro athletes are well compensated adults who deserve to be judged on performance alone. College athletes are a whole other story and deserve to be treated better than that, regardless of the team or individual performance level. I'd expect bags/insulting signs/other stupid displays from a fan base like Syracuse, not from Hoya fans. Agreed it shouldn't happen in that atmosphere but let's be clear that this is directed at the coach and not the players. To think JTIII will be shielded from that is naive as he's making a lot of money and doing a poor job that everyone wants to ignore or make excuses for. It's actually people on this board who blame the players more than the coach for the performance of this team which I find laughable when it repeats itself with different player groups. We continue to find new lows and this season is shaping up to be rock bottom.
|
|
prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,531
|
Post by prhoya on Nov 27, 2016 23:58:56 GMT -5
I think the signs in the Verizon center and the people holding them were classless and disgraceful. I for one am hoping for the best for this young team and Coach, and prefer to wait and pass judgement later on as the season progresses. There are many more games to be played and I am really tired of all this negativity. They are students first, players second, and fine young men. Lets give them the respect that they deserve. Go Hoyas! Yeah, whoever did that should be ashamed. Its one thing if pro-sports fans want to try to embarrass their team for poor performance. Pro athletes are well compensated adults who deserve to be judged on performance alone. College athletes are a whole other story and deserve to be treated better than that, regardless of the team or individual performance level. I'd expect bags/insulting signs/other stupid displays from a fan base like Syracuse, not from Hoya fans. Most, if not all of us, were not there today to see the signs and bags. Was there a sign directed at a player or was it at the coach?
|
|
tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,572
|
Post by tashoya on Nov 28, 2016 0:15:17 GMT -5
Yeah, whoever did that should be ashamed. Its one thing if pro-sports fans want to try to embarrass their team for poor performance. Pro athletes are well compensated adults who deserve to be judged on performance alone. College athletes are a whole other story and deserve to be treated better than that, regardless of the team or individual performance level. I'd expect bags/insulting signs/other stupid displays from a fan base like Syracuse, not from Hoya fans. The signs I have seen were all critical of the coach, who is a highly paid professional. If there were signs about players I missed them. Because it's unacceptable to go after young men for their shortcomings. I'm not saying that the coach shouldn't be criticized. But it's not remotely as though the players are faultless. Point to one instance where a home crowd put up signs ripping their own players. I'd bet you, literally, can't find one instance of that having happened.
|
|
tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,572
|
Post by tashoya on Nov 28, 2016 0:17:21 GMT -5
Yeah, whoever did that should be ashamed. Its one thing if pro-sports fans want to try to embarrass their team for poor performance. Pro athletes are well compensated adults who deserve to be judged on performance alone. College athletes are a whole other story and deserve to be treated better than that, regardless of the team or individual performance level. I'd expect bags/insulting signs/other stupid displays from a fan base like Syracuse, not from Hoya fans. Most, if not all of us, were not there today to see the signs and bags. Was there a sign directed at a player or was it at the coach? Then you were there for the wrong reasons and need to find a new hobby. I get that you hate the coach. And that's defensible. But if you don't want to go to root for the Hoyas, don't go. You can see the signs on Instagram later.
|
|
eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
|
Post by eagle54 on Nov 28, 2016 0:24:24 GMT -5
Most, if not all of us, were not there today to see the signs and bags. Was there a sign directed at a player or was it at the coach? Then you were there for the wrong reasons and need to find a new hobby. I get that you hate the coach. And that's defensible. But if you don't want to go to root for the Hoyas, don't go. You can see the signs on Instagram later. TAS, I hear you but the issue is the fanbase wants change and no one on this board or in this admin group listens rather they continue to get defensive. You can keep trying to fight that and maybe those fans will go away but then you are eroding your fanbase. If fans are showing up to call out the coach and it's gotten that bad then it is what it is at this point. At least they bought a ticket which is more than another 12k or so did. We have a problem that hasn't been addressed and a fanbase feeling like no one is listening.
|
|
prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,531
|
Post by prhoya on Nov 28, 2016 0:37:14 GMT -5
Most, if not all of us, were not there today to see the signs and bags. Was there a sign directed at a player or was it at the coach? Then you were there for the wrong reasons and need to find a new hobby. I get that you hate the coach. And that's defensible. But if you don't want to go to root for the Hoyas, don't go. You can see the signs on Instagram later. I'm not sure if you are directing your comment at me or using the "you" in general referring to the students and fans. Just in case, as I've mentioned in other posts, I don't hate JT3. He has been good to the university and the university has been good to him. To clarify, my question is: was there a sign directed at a player other than the one sign directed at the coach? I ask because I wasn't there and most here were not there to see if it was just that sign shown above or if there were others signs. A lot of the posters here are hundreds to thousands of miles away from D.C. Naturally, going to every home game is not an alternative. My question is directed at posters who were there today and can answer after witnessing it themselves.
|
|
tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,572
|
Post by tashoya on Nov 28, 2016 0:38:26 GMT -5
Then you were there for the wrong reasons and need to find a new hobby. I get that you hate the coach. And that's defensible. But if you don't want to go to root for the Hoyas, don't go. You can see the signs on Instagram later. TAS, I hear you but the issue is the fanbase wants change and no one on this board or in this admin group listens rather they continue to get defensive. You can keep trying to fight that and maybe those fans will go away but then you are eroding your fanbase. If fans are showing up to call out the coach and it's gotten that bad then it is what it is at this point. At least they bought a ticket which is more than another 12k or so did. We have a problem that hasn't been addressed and a fanbase feeling like no one is listening. Eagle, I get your point. But it was a picture of exactly ONE sign. I think you're reaching. I'm not saying the sentiment isn't there or that there aren't valid cases to be made. But it's one sign.
|
|
eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
|
Post by eagle54 on Nov 28, 2016 0:42:36 GMT -5
TAS, I hear you but the issue is the fanbase wants change and no one on this board or in this admin group listens rather they continue to get defensive. You can keep trying to fight that and maybe those fans will go away but then you are eroding your fanbase. If fans are showing up to call out the coach and it's gotten that bad then it is what it is at this point. At least they bought a ticket which is more than another 12k or so did. We have a problem that hasn't been addressed and a fanbase feeling like no one is listening. Eagle, I get your point. But it was a picture of exactly ONE sign. I think you're reaching. I'm not saying the sentiment isn't there or that there aren't valid cases to be made. But it's one sign. Maybe I'm missing something. The point you are making is there was one sign so not a real concerted effort or is your point that the signs were against the student-athletes? Not sure I'm folliowing as all I've seen is the same picture I think we all saw from casualhoya.
|
|
Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,653
|
Post by Bigs"R"Us on Nov 28, 2016 7:34:40 GMT -5
One sign directed at the coach in an empty arena does stand out, I guess. Looks like most fans have voted with their feet. Over time, the lack of attendance itself will have an impact on the coaching situation. I still will root for us to win and watch every game- I just wish the product were better.
|
|
|
Post by johnnysnowplow on Nov 28, 2016 7:40:29 GMT -5
I have to agree here. To me it appears he has made absolutely no improvements in the offseason. His hands are weak, his game is soft, he doesn't rebound and he still has no idea how to defend. Everytime he's doubled its an instant turnover. It's nice to have a C that knock down a three from time to time but if that's all he can do effectively on the floor, he's going to be a net negative. I think it's fair to question his work ethic. I'm not saying he definitely didn't put in the offseason work, but I think it's certainly fair to ask the question. If you want to really be fair make sure you look back at games 1 - 4 where he averaged 13 pts and 6 rbs a game. He wasn't setting the world on fire but he wasn't "a waste of a scholarship" either. That said I'm glad Thompson is sitting him because he has looked really soft in the last three games. Stats are fine but hardly tell the whole story. My eyes tell me he hasn't improved at all since last season. Which seems to be a concerning trend among this team with few exceptions.
|
|
DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 32,081
|
Post by DanMcQ on Nov 28, 2016 8:01:32 GMT -5
The box score attendance was probably pretty accurate.
Need to tighten up the turnovers now.
Derrickson was really good on the boards on both ends. Shot was rusty but he kept shooting it until it went twice. He will be a major piece going forward. His knee seemed fine - he went full speed end to end a couple of times without hesitation. Lateral quickness has never been his strong suit.
Love Pryor's shooting but he still needs to give it up quicker in break situations. A previous post noting slow guard rotations when he got trapped is an accurate and key observation. Pryor still seemingly cannot locate his man to box out on the defensive boards (he and most of the guards still do not do this well).
Hayes played well but needs to mix in some drop step dunks and start to use the glass on some of his shots.
Nice to see Campbell's three-point shot fall. Lots of other areas in his game still need work.
Agau is progressing nicely and will be a key piece - he and Derrickson bring some of the interior aggression that has been missing.
Nice to see Cameron back on the bench - not surprised he did not play but a leave of absence means he was also not practicing.
Peak is far and away this team's best, most athletic player. The team needs Pryor's points but Peak has far more upside.
Few students (I counted about 30) but expected given Thanksgiving break.
Did not see paper bag / sign guy. There were no other signs I saw.
|
|
|
Post by x-centercourt400s on Nov 28, 2016 9:21:35 GMT -5
Eagle, I get your point. But it was a picture of exactly ONE sign. I think you're reaching. I'm not saying the sentiment isn't there or that there aren't valid cases to be made. But it's one sign. Maybe I'm missing something. The point you are making is there was one sign so not a real concerted effort or is your point that the signs were against the student-athletes? Not sure I'm folliowing as all I've seen is the same picture I think we all saw from casualhoya. Let's be clear. The sign was directed at the coach but I'm sure few people could read it or even noticed it (I was there but didn't see it). Hell, you can't even read it in the picture. The bag however was instantly recognizable as an indictment of the TEAM, as in "I'm so embarrassed to witness this poor performance I need to disguise myself". Anyone who sees a bag-on-the-head doesn't have to think twice about what is intended, and the intention to embarrass the team is disgraceful.
|
|
|
Post by HometownHoya on Nov 28, 2016 9:56:57 GMT -5
Was there a game played or was it a sign holding competition?
|
|
drquigley
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,397
|
Post by drquigley on Nov 28, 2016 10:24:19 GMT -5
I have to agree here. To me it appears he has made absolutely no improvements in the offseason. His hands are weak, his game is soft, he doesn't rebound and he still has no idea how to defend. Everytime he's doubled its an instant turnover. It's nice to have a C that knock down a three from time to time but if that's all he can do effectively on the floor, he's going to be a net negative. I think it's fair to question his work ethic. I'm not saying he definitely didn't put in the offseason work, but I think it's certainly fair to ask the question. If you want to really be fair make sure you look back at games 1 - 4 where he averaged 13 pts and 6 rbs a game. He wasn't setting the world on fire but he wasn't "a waste of a scholarship" either. That said I'm glad Thompson is sitting him because he has looked really soft in the last three games. The last 3 games Govan has played 7, 6, and 5 minutes respectively. If that's not a waste of a scholarship then I don't know what is. Jesse got plenty of pt last year and early this year. So regardless of what you or I think it's obvious that JT3 and his staff do not think he is the "big man" center they were hoping for when they recruited him two years ago. And sadly, this seems to be the recurring theme of our recruiting the last 5 years. We have too many guys who were thought to be great additions to the program who, after a few turns around D1 play, have not lived up to expectations. That is why we are hurting now and will be in the future unless our staff learns how to effectively evaluate high school talent.
|
|
|
Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 28, 2016 11:22:29 GMT -5
I don't understand all the Govan bashing - saying he's not worth a scholarship is ridiculous. I can understand why people are down on him, and I agree he's got some trouble spots, like rebounding. But given the obsession with offense, you'd think that people would be higher on him, at least in comparison to Hayes.
Some stats:
Govan: Offensive Efficency - 107.9; 2 PT % - 54.5; FT% - 69.6%; Offensive Rebounding Rate - 7.2; Defense Rebounding Rate - 18.5; Turnover Rate - 20.4 Hayes: Offensive Efficency - 86.8; 2 PT % - 47.6; FT% - 30%; Offensive Rebounding Rate - 8.2; Defense Rebounding Rate - 26.1; Turnover Rate - 18.3
Based on the stats, Govan is a much superior offensive player, except that his rebounding is not quite as good as Hayes - and that's mostly on the defensive boards. Both of them have turned the ball over a pretty fair amount. Govan's FT percentage is down from last year, but Hayes' is much worse thus far.
Obviously, these stats don't tell the full story, but I think it's important to not sell Govan short. He might not be playing his best, but he's still a very solid offensive player. If he can get rebounding and turnovers under control, he will be very solid.
|
|
|
Post by johnnysnowplow on Nov 28, 2016 11:42:45 GMT -5
I don't understand all the Govan bashing - saying he's not worth a scholarship is ridiculous. I can understand why people are down on him, and I agree he's got some trouble spots, like rebounding. But given the obsession with offense, you'd think that people would be higher on him, at least in comparison to Hayes. Some stats: Govan: Offensive Efficency - 107.9; 2 PT % - 54.5; FT% - 69.6%; Offensive Rebounding Rate - 7.2; Defense Rebounding Rate - 18.5; Turnover Rate - 20.4 Hayes: Offensive Efficency - 86.8; 2 PT % - 47.6; FT% - 30%; Offensive Rebounding Rate - 8.2; Defense Rebounding Rate - 26.1; Turnover Rate - 18.3 Based on the stats, Govan is a much superior offensive player, except that his rebounding is not quite as good as Hayes - and that's mostly on the defensive boards. Both of them have turned the ball over a pretty fair amount. Govan's FT percentage is down from last year, but Hayes' is much worse thus far. Obviously, these stats don't tell the full story, but I think it's important to not sell Govan short. He might not be playing his best, but he's still a very solid offensive player. If he can get rebounding and turnovers under control, he will be very solid. I'm not speaking for everyone, but personally, my gripe is not that he has performed badly. Maybe in my initial post it seemed that way, so that was probably a bit misleading. My gripe is that, from my standpoint, he's made no discernible improvements in any facet of the game from last year to this year so far. He's still pretty good at the same things he was pretty good at last year, and he's still bad at the same things he was bad at last year. And yes, there's a reason he's been stapled to the bench in recent games. And it's because he's just as abhorrent defensively as he was last year. And he still can't get an offensive rebound. And he still can't hold on to the ball. And he still doesn't finish with any kind of authority around the rim. He hasn't improved at all. And he's not the only one. It's a common theme recently.
|
|
drquigley
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,397
|
Post by drquigley on Nov 28, 2016 11:43:17 GMT -5
I don't understand all the Govan bashing - saying he's not worth a scholarship is ridiculous. I can understand why people are down on him, and I agree he's got some trouble spots, like rebounding. But given the obsession with offense, you'd think that people would be higher on him, at least in comparison to Hayes. Some stats: Govan: Offensive Efficency - 107.9; 2 PT % - 54.5; FT% - 69.6%; Offensive Rebounding Rate - 7.2; Defense Rebounding Rate - 18.5; Turnover Rate - 20.4 Hayes: Offensive Efficency - 86.8; 2 PT % - 47.6; FT% - 30%; Offensive Rebounding Rate - 8.2; Defense Rebounding Rate - 26.1; Turnover Rate - 18.3 Based on the stats, Govan is a much superior offensive player, except that his rebounding is not quite as good as Hayes - and that's mostly on the defensive boards. Both of them have turned the ball over a pretty fair amount. Govan's FT percentage is down from last year, but Hayes' is much worse thus far. Obviously, these stats don't tell the full story, but I think it's important to not sell Govan short. He might not be playing his best, but he's still a very solid offensive player. If he can get rebounding and turnovers under control, he will be very solid. I'm sorry, but schools like GU that don't have tons of top prospects knocking down our doors have to be sure that they use their scholarships judiciously. We just can't afford to give scholarships to guys who, by their sophomore years, are playing less than 10 minutes a game. Especially when you had expected that guy to help us control the paint. I hope I'm dead wrong and Jesse comes around and by next year is a solid contributor to this team. But if you're like me, and my buddies, you have to cringe when Jesse touches the ball down low or finds himself trying to defend under the basket.
|
|
calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,382
|
Post by calhoya on Nov 28, 2016 11:50:54 GMT -5
Govan is not quick enough or strong enough yet to excel. I think that he will start playing more as the season progresses. Still would like to see him in a big line-up where he could go outside and present a threat. Hayes tries hard and rebounds better than Govan but also remains slow and an offensive liability. I think that the playing time issue with Govan is about sending him a message involving effort. Agau is a very nice surprise right now.
|
|
|
Post by johnnysnowplow on Nov 28, 2016 11:59:23 GMT -5
Govan is not quick enough or strong enough yet to excel. I think that he will start playing more as the season progresses. Still would like to see him in a big line-up where he could go outside and present a threat. Hayes tries hard and rebounds better than Govan but also remains slow and an offensive liability. I think that the playing time issue with Govan is about sending him a message involving effort. Agau is a very nice surprise right now. Exactly. And if that's the case, I think it's very fair to question whether or not he put in the effort in the offseason. Where there's smoke...
|
|