prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 10, 2015 15:49:52 GMT -5
It's not that simple though. White is already replacing Hopkins a lot at power forward. The problem starts when Josh Smith gets in foul trouble. Then Hopkins has to come in the game to play center. The only other option is really Bradley Hayes but honestly Hayes doesn't do much on either end of the court so you are almost playing 4-5 on offense and defense. It's not even a foul trouble problem because Josh is only good for about 25 mins anyway. It's a personnel problem at the 5 because we don't have anyone to play the other 15 mins but Hopkins or Hayes. At this point I'd rather they split the remaining minutes. Hayes at least hit that baseline 5 footer and I think could probably execute a pick and roll. Exactly. Hayes and Hops need to divide the other minutes at the 5 not played by Josh.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 10, 2015 15:54:06 GMT -5
It's not that simple though. White is already replacing Hopkins a lot at power forward. The problem starts when Josh Smith gets in foul trouble. Then Hopkins has to come in the game to play center. The only other option is really Bradley Hayes but honestly Hayes doesn't do much on either end of the court so you are almost playing 4-5 on offense and defense. It's not even a foul trouble problem because Josh is only good for about 25 mins anyway. It's a personnel problem at the 5 because we don't have anyone to play the other 15 mins but Hopkins or Hayes. At this point I'd rather they split the remaining minutes. Hayes at least hit that baseline 5 footer and I think could probably execute a pick and roll. The problem with Hayes is defense and rim protecting. He's not explosive at all and isn't the shot blocking factor that a seven footer should be. Alot of times he gets in the right position but his hands are always down by his hips and he's slow to get them up high for a rebound or shot alteration. He should just keep his hands high all the time. On top of that he is a foul machine as well so 20 minutes is probably about the max you could get out of him. Despite all that III put Hayes in at a critical juncture in the game for 7 minutes so there is an awareness that Hayes needs to develop and improve this year at the cost of some games. I think playing all these freshman and Hayes critical minutes may hurt us now (with all their errors) but pay off later on. This is kind of what Rick Pitino does, especially during his championship run, the team always starts slow and then peaks at the right time because he is working on giving PT to guys who can help him later on.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 10, 2015 15:56:06 GMT -5
I think you assume that Hopkins must be used as Smiths's backup primarily. It means going a little smaller but honestly we are playing that way now for large stretches of the game. Copeland is too skinny to play center. He just can't get defensive or offensive boards against Big East caliber centers. He would have been killed defensively by DeRosiers and Chukwu. White cannot play center either. He has a hard enough time boxing out or getting rebounds against power forwards.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Jan 10, 2015 16:00:48 GMT -5
Yes, we know you don't like the offense. We'e heard it. What do you find "unpredictable"? Isolation plays? What is this offense missing? We run. We run pick and roll (3 that Hopkins botches), we flash to the FT line and to the baseline against the zone. We dribble drive into the seams. We run cuts every once in a while. We dump it down the big man (not enough). We don't run all these that well. We get stagnant at times. But these are all in the playbook. Things I think we are missing: isolation plays (for who, I don't know); curls off screens. The latter one is just about the only thing I can think of that I'd really like to see. I also think this team could go inside-out quicker. Mostly I just think we are slow at rotating the ball. What are we missing? When have you seen us properly execute a pick and roll??? Let's be real here. Yes we set the high pick up top, but it's not a designed pick and roll, it's a pick to get the ball handler free, and possibly create enough space to get a shot off. If we're really wanting to execute the pick and roll, we need to run it on different areas of the court, and get someone in there to pick, like White, Jabril, or Cope, who can take a dribble and finish. Doing it with Hop and Josh that far from the basket doesn't work. There are too many stretches against the zone in which there is no outlet at the ft line. If we're going to do that, then we need to overload a side, and not have 2 guys at the top of the key. I'll talk more about overloading shortly. We need to run way more high low than we do, flashing Hop, Whit or Cope to the ft line, and immediately dumping inside to Josh, who establishes front of the rim post position. As far as Hop and his poor play goes, he doesn't check himself in and out of games, that's COACHING. Now back to overloading the zone. Please try to see this, because it may be hard to visualize. We set up offensively against the zone, as we normally do, then we send the wing from one side, to the baseline of the opposite side of the floor. Now you have 4 offensive players vs 3 defensive players, one just above the 3 point line extended, the other on the wing, and the 3rd player along the baseline corner. This will leave one wing player alone on the weak side, Josh playing the low block ball side, and the 4 playing the ft line, ball side In this offense, I would have Peak or White at the point, and DSR on the wing, or running the baseline extended. When the ball is passed to the wing, he will draw a defender, when he does, he can drive and kick to the baseline player or simply pass it to him. That's going to draw a big man running out to defend that shot. Trust me, when that ball is passed a few times, he doesn't want to get out there, but when he does, that leave the low block open, and it leave the lane open for the wing player to cut for an easy basket. There are so many scoring options when you overload a zone in that way, it creates openings and mismatches that can be exploited all game. I have played in and coached this offense, and believe me, it works. Anytime we run it against a zone, the opposing team quickly goes back t man to man. I just don't see us doing much movement at all vs the zone, just a lot of stagnant passing around the perimeter. We did try to run a decent amount of high/low against the zone with Paul flashing to the post and looking low, but that's certainly a way to get Josh the ball. The problem is that teams are just daring us to shoot there and dropping both baseline guys on the zone down. I'd have to go back and see if we tried to overload it....we did a ton against Marquette (although it was a different zone). The huge problem with an overload is a trap in the short corner -- that's why Syracuse almost never gets burned by an overload.
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joey0403p
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Post by joey0403p on Jan 10, 2015 16:00:55 GMT -5
I don't think you can blame hop so much for the loss. He is 21? 22? He is a kid. Give him a break.
Jt iii and I am a huge supporter didn't have a good day. He didn't have a good day because he has never developed a consistent zone offense. I don't understand why every big east team that had to play cuse didn't develop a good to great zone offense. That could shred other teams outside of cuse who prob plays it the best.
I just do t get it. Every time someone flashed to the foul line something good happend. Not always points. But good looks etc. I just don't get it.
Hop shouldn't get a pass for the fts. But it's hard to blame a 22 year old that tries his best. He didn't play well today. But he put max effort out there. So I can't be upset at him. (Frustrated for sure! But not mad)
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Jan 10, 2015 16:01:07 GMT -5
If Mikael continues like this at the FT line, the opponents will revert to a Hack a Hop!
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jan 10, 2015 16:07:37 GMT -5
Let's put it this way, Hop is entering the "Anyone but him" zone.
If White needs help defending against centers you can plan for that. But there is no remedy for Hop on offense. He's a game-changing liability 4 out of 5 games.
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DallasHoya
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Post by DallasHoya on Jan 10, 2015 16:08:18 GMT -5
It should have been obvious from the last game that you cannot play Smith and Hopkins together against a zone, especially when you play Hopkins in the middle of the zone, at the foul line. He can't shoot it from there, he can't pass to anyone, he certainly can't take it to the basket and make a close in shot (or make FTs if he's fouled).
How has the coach who figured out how to beat the Syracuse zone by putting Chris Wright in the middle not figured this out about Hopkins?
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 10, 2015 16:09:35 GMT -5
If Mikael continues like this at the FT line, the opponents will revert to a Hack a Hop! I think that's exactly what Cooley was doing. He was baiting LJ Peak and DSR to throw the pass into Hopkins by leaving him wide open. That way you can double team some one else. From Cooley's perspective it's a high percentage play because Hopkins might turn it over or blow the layup/get shot blocked. Worst case scenario he gets fouled and then he misses free throws. All Cooley has to do is read this board and then he would know that you live with letting Hopkins try to beat you rather than DSR or Josh Smith.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 10, 2015 16:10:34 GMT -5
The Dunk crowd was very disappointing without the PC students - even with PC's comeback it was relatively quiet.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 10, 2015 16:13:40 GMT -5
So we can't blame this on being intimidated by the crowd? Rats.
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Buckets
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Post by Buckets on Jan 10, 2015 16:16:56 GMT -5
Seems like we rarely go 2 for 1 in scenarios where it seems fairly obvious. If I had to guess, JT3 would say he cares more about getting a good shot than worrying about the clock. He might find it gimmicky, but to me it's just good math.... I'll stay away from most of this thread but I have to comment on this. Most baffling part of the college game versus pro. Just makes no sense. Every college team does this, not just us, and it's horrible. I don't know if it's the limited practice time or college coaches generally being insane but I can't explain it. It's not that hard to get a shot with twenty seconds in the half court. That said, we are horrible at running plays. We run our offense where there's a lot of individual discretion and clearly don't run any specific sets in practice. Inbounds, getting a basket in any set amount of time, we are consistently bad. Last play of regulation where we got lucky, last play of overtime, a very lengthy list of past games. Probably should cut some time in practice "running our stuff" and focus on actual set plays. EDIT: Also our offense against any unanticipated zone appears to consist of passing the ball around a perimeter five feet beyond the NBA three point line. Was out in full force today.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Jan 10, 2015 16:19:43 GMT -5
I think you assume that Hopkins must be used as Smiths's backup primarily. It means going a little smaller but honestly we are playing that way now for large stretches of the game. Copeland is too skinny to play center. He just can't get defensive or offensive boards against Big East caliber centers. He would have been killed defensively by DeRosiers and Chukwu. White cannot play center either. He has a hard enough time boxing out or getting rebounds against power forwards. Agree on White and Copeland as neither can play the 5 yet. So the only real choice is Hopkins and I would limit his minutes at the 4 to use him as backup for Smith. I actually think that the Hoyas play better at times without Smith. Clearly they are better defensively with Hopkins, but they give up any hope of scoring in the post.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 10, 2015 16:29:17 GMT -5
Still January. It's not winning these games (though that would be nice) it's what you do with the information. I can't be too terribly upset with losing a road game to a good team in this conference especially given the officiating. Missed opportunity but not a back breaker. That said, the Hoyas are at a crossroads with two games they have to win ahead of their only underdog home game versus Nova. Will the Hoyas learn? Will Hop play less? Will DSR be more aggressive? Will Peak attack the rim? Is Tre going to be point guard? I think III knows what he has right now. The question will be how he uses it. Steadfast dedication to Hopkins would be potentially the biggest mistake. I want to see how these next couple games go before declaring this team in trouble. This is the big question. Does JT3 make the hard choices that are needed to help this team win? Does he tell his senior forward his playing time is cut for Copeland/White? Does he give the keys to Tre and let him play the pg position? I think JT3 probably knows he needs to do these things deep down, but he's conservative by nature.... I mean, he does it for Peak over Bowen a disproportionate amount, why not for Hop?
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 10, 2015 16:35:43 GMT -5
I don't think you can blame hop so much for the loss. He is 21? 22? He is a kid. Give him a break. Jt iii and I am a huge supporter didn't have a good day. He didn't have a good day because he has never developed a consistent zone offense. I don't understand why every big east team that had to play cuse didn't develop a good to great zone offense. That could shred other teams outside of cuse who prob plays it the best. I just do t get it. Every time someone flashed to the foul line something good happend. Not always points. But good looks etc. I just don't get it. Hop shouldn't get a pass for the fts. But it's hard to blame a 22 year old that tries his best. He didn't play well today. But he put max effort out there. So I can't be upset at him. (Frustrated for sure! But not mad) Exactly. Can't say he doesn't bring it consistently. At the end of the day I think many of the posters on this board would agree an area in which we lack quality is the ability to express our disappointments in terms of frustration, rather than anger. Sometimes posters are quick to criticize without realizing that a player may be giving it their all and that it might just not be good enough on that day. No one, person or player, really deserves to be put down for their inherent limitations. But that's just my view on our players, after all they are young men still figuring it out.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 10, 2015 16:36:09 GMT -5
Copeland is too skinny to play center. He just can't get defensive or offensive boards against Big East caliber centers. He would have been killed defensively by DeRosiers and Chukwu. White cannot play center either. He has a hard enough time boxing out or getting rebounds against power forwards. Agree on White and Copeland as neither can play the 5 yet. So the only real choice is Hopkins and I would limit his minutes at the 4 to use him as backup for Smith. I actually think that the Hoyas play better at times without Smith. Clearly they are better defensively with Hopkins, but they give up any hope of scoring in the post. Honestly this is already what is happening. Hopkins gets his senior start at power forward and then is subbed out real early (like 3-5 minutes) in the first half for Paul White. When Hopkins comes back in he is subbing in at center for Josh Smith. Then to start the 2nd half, Paul White starts at power forward and Hopkins is on the bench and when Hopkins comes in it's to spell Josh Smith at center. I've never liked Hopkins game. Reminded me of a smaller Elden Campbell when I first saw him. But he has become a defensive force and Providence with their long athletic bigs would have killed us defensively today without him. In all honestly, Hopkins has been a trooper playing all 4 years out of position as an undersized center instead of at his natural power forward position. On the offensive side is where playing out of position really hurts him as he isn't an explosive leaper and isn't strong enough against legit centers.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 10, 2015 16:37:42 GMT -5
This is the big question. Does JT3 make the hard choices that are needed to help this team win? Does he tell his senior forward his playing time is cut for Copeland/White? Does he give the keys to Tre and let him play the pg position? I think JT3 probably knows he needs to do these things deep down, but he's conservative by nature.... I mean, he does it for Peak over Bowen a disproportionate amount, why not for Hop? True. I would be very surprised if JT3 changes the starting line-up, so for the first few minutes it will be what we have seen. Today's sequence beginning the game was particularly bad, with four TOs, etc... We were down quickly. It's happened a few times, like the team needs time to gel and get over the initial mistakes to get going. It's time to see what happens when Hops comes off the bench after the first time-out and first breathing break for Josh.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 10, 2015 16:38:02 GMT -5
If Mikael continues like this at the FT line, the opponents will revert to a Hack a Hop! I think that's exactly what Cooley was doing. He was baiting LJ Peak and DSR to throw the pass into Hopkins by leaving him wide open. That way you can double team some one else. From Cooley's perspective it's a high percentage play because Hopkins might turn it over or blow the layup/get shot blocked. Worst case scenario he gets fouled and then he misses free throws. All Cooley has to do is read this board and then he would know that you live with letting Hopkins try to beat you rather than DSR or Josh Smith. Yep that's what I saw as well and oftentimes our guards had no choice but to throw the pass because they were receiving so much contact from ball pressure that was going uncalled.
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richfame
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Post by richfame on Jan 10, 2015 16:39:32 GMT -5
Ok so tough loss, I hate playing at the DUNK. Here is my 2 cents:
1. The starting line up has to be: TRE DSR PEAK WHITE SMITH
Now keep in mind Hopper and Smith are interchangable since Smith will have 2 fouls in like 5 game minutes..
2. I dont understand why LJ and TRE are so passive on the offensive end. We need LJ to step up and shoulder the load especially if DSR is going to be passive or play the point and facilitate. Also we need to Play TRE more, and shift DSR to the of guard slot. TRE also cant pass up on open shots, the kids a player. Im not saying jack up shots but take them where they are there.
3. Clearly a poor coaching performace from JT3. Im not a JT3 hater but his in game decisions are not always great. We are never sharp out of a time out and our end game execuation is not good.
4. This was the worst ref'ing job ever. The first 2 foul calls on hopper were awful and at least 2 on Smith were equally as awful I cant tell you how many times a foul was called and it was BS or there was a non call that killed us.
This was a game we should have won, Providence was sleepwalking most of the game and we just matchd there Chit energy. This game really scares me cause we have teh athletes and I know that this group of guys are capable of much better. DSR should be more aggressive, LJ should be more aggressive. I like Paul Whites game if JT3 can get him shots. Smith was good today but he's just so limited. He cannot sustain the energy to play the way we need him. Utlimately if he cant give us more minutes and avoid the stupid fouls hes going to be a negative...
I hope we can sharpen up because its no longer early, its conference play and time to rack up the W'S
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 10, 2015 16:43:16 GMT -5
Ok so tough loss, I hate playing at the DUNK. Here is my 2 cents: 1. The starting line up has to be: TRE DSR PEAK WHITE SMITH Now keep in mind Hopper and Smith are interchangable since Smith will have 2 fouls in like 5 game minutes.. 2. I dont understand why LJ and TRE are so passive on the offensive end. We need LJ to step up and shoulder the load especially if DSR is going to be passive or play the point and facilitate. Also we need to Play TRE more, and shift DSR to the of guard slot. TRE also cant pass up on open shots, the kids a player. Im not saying jack up shots but take them where they are there. 3. Clearly a poor coaching performace from JT3. Im not a JT3 hater but his in game decisions are not always great. We are never sharp out of a time out and our end game execuation is not good. 4. This was the worst ref'ing job ever. The first 2 foul calls on hopper were awful and at least 2 on Smith were equally as awful I cant tell you how many times a foul was called and it was BS or there was a non call that killed us. This was a game we should have won, Providence was sleepwalking most of the game and we just matchd there Chit energy. This game really scares me cause we have teh athletes and I know that this group of guys are capable of much better. DSR should be more aggressive, LJ should be more aggressive. I like Paul Whites game if JT3 can get him shots. Smith was good today but he's just so limited. He cannot sustain the energy to play the way we need him. Utlimately if he cant give us more minutes and avoid the stupid fouls hes going to be a negative... I hope we can sharpen up because its no longer early, its conference play and time to rack up the W'S Agree with pretty much all of it....
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