NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Jan 10, 2015 15:20:59 GMT -5
That's fair. And I hardly agree with all of JTIII's decisions. I just think people put way too emphasis on the coach versus the players -- good and bad. JTIII is a good coach. He knows how to beat a zone -- his teams have done it a ton of times. He does have systematic weaknesses, I think, but they aren't often what people say. But he's not going to make a bad team great or a great team bad. He's currently making a good team with a lot of talent and depth into a very average or below average team. The sets he runs of offense make this team waaay too easy to guard. He gets paid too much money to be so predictable on offense. He needs to try and run sets teams hasn't seen us run before. Some of the stuff he sent out there today was horrible. I am not sure what you want III to do when matching up against a zone? The team has no reliable shooters this season, despite some lofty reputations, so automatically beating a zone becomes very difficult. III's stud player, DSR, continues to underperform and pass up shots (even at the end of games!!) - are you pegging his obvious confidence issues on III? III can only put his players in position to succeed, he does that to a large extent. The players sometimes simply cannot make the basketball play. The adjustment this game was getting White into the elbow area which worked. The ball moved to the short corner and foul line areas (the soft parts of the zone) much more. There were also some very good interior passes that Hopkins basically destroyed. We did not get much transition but that is a credit to PC (and Dunn), not an indictment on III's coaching. Also, take an unbiased look at this "talent" you are touting, who in that group is going to consistently beat a zone either by shooting or penetrating and dishing? Who exactly is going to do that? Being athletic does not beat zones, period. The kids need to grow up and get some skills, being fast or jumping high does not win games in D1 basketball.
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Post by JohnnyJones on Jan 10, 2015 15:23:37 GMT -5
I tend to agree with SF, we played pretty well against the zone. I am really surprised to hear you guys say this. Maybe I am just focusing on and remembering the negative. I know there were a handful of strong offesive possessions against the zone, but it felt like we had a lot more uninspired passing around the perimeter with little movement.
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Post by sleepy21 on Jan 10, 2015 15:23:59 GMT -5
Why is Hopkins reaching for the ball 25 feet from the basket. Why is he allowed to play shooting ft so badly. I just do not get what is the criteria to receive playing time for GTown. He does this every game. You would think a guy that has played fairly high level basketball since probably middle school would have just a little bit of court awareness. Every time you watch him play, you get the sense he just learned the game 2 years ago and is in his first year of playing organized ball. There have been many lesser talented players but I've never seen a clueless yet fairly talented player like Hopkins in my 30 years of following Hoyas hoops. This guy literally will attempt a drop step from the 3 point line!
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 10, 2015 15:26:14 GMT -5
Nobody gets a high grade today, from the Coach all the way down. Most everyone had good moments, some more than others. Still far too many senseless turnovers and fouls - the refs were supbar today, but Josh and Hopkins each had a stupid foul that affected the rotation.
Coach needs to tighten up this team quickly, and figure out a way to make teams pay for playing zone. We are going to face zones the rest of the way until we move the ball better, and also shoot it better from the perimeter.
A tough road game that we should have won.The freshmen need to start stepping up very quickly.
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bamahoya11
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Post by bamahoya11 on Jan 10, 2015 15:26:48 GMT -5
After taking a few minutes to calm down following a VERY difficult game to watch, I'll offer a few thoughts...
(1) The Impact of this Loss-- A lot of folks think this was a big loss in the scheme of the season, and I get it. This was a game where we controlled most of the second half, and frankly we should have gotten it done. However, I really think this season is at a turning point right now, and it could go either way from here. This is at least some reason for optimism. If you compare this road game (our second) to Xavier (our first), we played better in some critical respects. The freshmen looked more comfortable on the road, and White's aggressiveness seemed to be coming back. I really admired his "I want the shot" mentality early in the season, and I was glad to see it resurface today. Plus, we played defense, and we controlled the flow of the game. We never let Providence slip too far in front in the first half, and we had control of the game in the second half until the end. This is a very young team with little road experience, and although the offense bogged down, we are getting better on the road.
(2) Hopkins-- He's not a great player, and he's not going to be a great player. He is one of our best two or three defensive players most of the time (not today), and he is one of our two or three worst offensive players. I don't blame him for the loss, however, both because JTIII played him (as many posters have pointed out) and our players (including DSR) continued to feed the ball to him on offense at critical points in the game. Like most teams, we have a weak spot in our lineup, and this year it's the four spot. Most teams other than say, Kentucky, have a weak spot in their starting lineup, and good teams will exploit that weakness. Today, we got exploited because Hopkins got hacked, went to the line, and couldn't convert anything. The coaches AND the other players need to realize Hop's weaknesses and make sure that he is utilized where he brings strengths, on defense, and he is avoided where he is weak, on offense. We can win games, make the tournament, and have lots of success this season, even with a weakness at the four-spot. We just need to find ways to mask the weakness and not put Hop in a position where he needs to make big plays to win the game.
(3) Our Offense-- Our offense, especially in the second half was good at times, but it still bogged down at multiple key points in the game. We definitely need to work on our movement, and we need DSR to be more aggressive. We need him putting up more shots, and I think we should consider playing Tre more. When he came into the game in the first half, the team seemed to settle down a little bit and start moving.
(4) Going Forward-- I don't see this as the end of our season. We are, however, in the midst of a very big four-game set. Going into the year, I had really circled these four games (at Providence, at DePaul, vs. Butler, vs. Villanova) as a key stretch in the year. Going in, I thought 3-1 would put us on solid tournament footing, 2-2 is okay and probably still in good tournament shape, but 1-3 or worse puts us in a big hole. Losing today makes the DePaul game all the more important, and they look like a tough out right now. We really need that game, and then we need to be able to come home and hold serve. I think if we can do that a lot of the frustration coming from this loss will be a thing of the past. For now, I continue to trust that JTIII and the team will keep working hard and get it done. Going into the year, I knew it wouldn't be easy with so many young players. I continue to have faith that these rough times will pay off by February and March.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 15:27:09 GMT -5
That doesn't follow a logical progression. Because Hop missed two fts with 4 mins remaining, that has an affect on How everyone plays for the rest of the game? That's not how sports work, they are about getting hit in the mouth and seeing how well you respond. Math is hard, I know. Make a few of those free throws, and the Hoyas win in regulation. He never would've had to make a good play in OT if there is no OT. Seems pretty logical to me. Of course things wouldn't have played out exactly the same. But if he even hits 3 of 6, I'm willing to bet we have about a 95% chance of winning in regulation. Want to disagree w that?
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Jan 10, 2015 15:27:47 GMT -5
Today will be remembered in History as the day the shots did not fall in Providence, Rhode Island. JT did a fantastic job of coaching--don't care what anyone says. Josh played, perhaps, his best game as a Hoya. The team played well. Hopkins played well. He also had six free throws that you have to make in this kind of situation, in this league. What happened? He missed all six free throws. That's the game.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 15:28:32 GMT -5
Exactly what I was thinking Seems like we rarely go 2 for 1 in scenarios where it seems fairly obvious. If I had to guess, JT3 would say he cares more about getting a good shot than worrying about the clock. He might find it gimmicky, but to me it's just good math....
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Jan 10, 2015 15:30:30 GMT -5
I tend to agree with SF, we played pretty well against the zone. I am really surprised to hear you guys say this. Maybe I am just focusing on and remembering the negative. I know there were a handful of strong offesive possessions against the zone, but it felt like we had a lot more uninspired passing around the perimeter with little movement. No question ball movement and pace are an issue, but overall, the scheme is fairly solid. The players are just not performing. The young guys are going to be hesitant and gradually improve, but I am not liking the seniors being slow and indecisive. The shots are there, they are either passing them up (which is infuriating) or missing them. For example, White did not really take a bad shot today, but he was only 4-12. Tough when guys are simply not able to make shots.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Jan 10, 2015 15:30:32 GMT -5
Apparently the outcome of the game was the determinative factor in deciding whether the coach did a good job? Really. What people should discuss is the recurring problems that plague this team, including no answer for the zone defense and inept FT shooting. Add the loss of composure by a senior who has played a lot and the return of the pass the ball around the perimeter offense. Seriously, did anyone , supporter or critic of JT III, really think that the Hoyas looked competent in running their offense today? Did anyone think that this team deserved to win? There are some serious flaws that have to be addressed or this is just another NIT season. 1) FT Shooting -- We just came off a game shooting like 83%. Players like Trawick and Smith have clearly changed their form and are taking more time at the line. This game we missed one FT by someone not named Hopkins. That's on the staff? How about just on Hopkins this time? 2) Zone Offense -- I think the offense looked bad at times and great at times. It's hard to play well against the zone when you can't hit an open jumpshot and your strength is big men down low -- basically the zone is designed to kill us. I thought White looked great at times and especially through most of the second half we looked very good on offense -- lots of penetration and interior passing. Lots of open looks. We missed quite a few of them, including three great plays that Hopkins got 0 points of because he couldn't convert at the rim or at the line. Does it stagnate at time? Absolutely. But it wasn't terrible. The second half box score isn't up yet, but I bet our offense was pretty strong there, especially if you adjust for the Hopkins screw-up. As for the comment people make "We're never good against the zone" -- that's absolute bull Edited. It's been debunked like 50 times. Just look at our O efficiencies over the years against Syracuse. We don't consistently perform worse against the zone. I think we played this game with a Editeding anchor on our team, poor shooting, dumb plays by Josh, inexplicable lack of early aggressiveness by DSR and some bull Edited refs. And we still lost by three in OT. Poor shooting is a recurring problem for this team and that inhibits the ability to solve a zone defense. Also,please don't reference the one game when we shot FTs well as evidence of our FT skill. The team is shooting below 70% for the season and that is with DSR at 87%. Only Peak and Smith are above 70% among the regulars. Several players are shooting very poorly. Since the Hoyas started facing zone on a regular basis the team has struggled to solve it. Have there been moments? Of course once someone hits a few shots, but look at our outside shooting and you will see that it has been poor all year. No one fears any Hoya shooter not named DSR. Also, I agree that Smith played poorly today at times, but just as bad was the play of others. It would be hard to single out anyone today as solely responsible for this loss. I have always believed that you evaluate a team and a player over a series of games, not a single game. My comments were made following today's game but reflect a pattern that is ongoing. Maybe there are no answers this year. What I can say is that without some changes in our offense, this team will struggle against everyone. That change can be as simple as inserting White in place of Hopkins or replacing Trawick and Peak more often with Tre.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 10, 2015 15:30:49 GMT -5
Today will be remembered in History as the day the shots did not fall in Providence, Rhode Island. JT did a fantastic job of coaching--don't care what anyone says. Josh played, perhaps, his best game as a Hoya. The team played well. Hopkins played well. He also had six free throws that you have to make in this kind of situation, in this league. What happened? He missed all six free throws. That's the game. It was more than six free throws I think because he missed some one and ones IIRC.
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Post by hoyacane11 on Jan 10, 2015 15:32:32 GMT -5
He's currently making a good team with a lot of talent and depth into a very average or below average team. The sets he runs of offense make this team waaay too easy to guard. He gets paid too much money to be so predictable on offense. He needs to try and run sets teams hasn't seen us run before. Some of the stuff he sent out there today was horrible. Yes, we know you don't like the offense. We'e heard it. What do you find "unpredictable"? Isolation plays? What is this offense missing? We run. We run pick and roll (3 that Hopkins botches), we flash to the FT line and to the baseline against the zone. We dribble drive into the seams. We run cuts every once in a while. We dump it down the big man (not enough). We don't run all these that well. We get stagnant at times. But these are all in the playbook. Things I think we are missing: isolation plays (for who, I don't know); curls off screens. The latter one is just about the only thing I can think of that I'd really like to see. I also think this team could go inside-out quicker. Mostly I just think we are slow at rotating the ball. What are we missing? When have you seen us properly execute a pick and roll??? Let's be real here. Yes we set the high pick up top, but it's not a designed pick and roll, it's a pick to get the ball handler free, and possibly create enough space to get a shot off. If we're really wanting to execute the pick and roll, we need to run it on different areas of the court, and get someone in there to pick, like White, Jabril, or Cope, who can take a dribble and finish. Doing it with Hop and Josh that far from the basket doesn't work. There are too many stretches against the zone in which there is no outlet at the ft line. If we're going to do that, then we need to overload a side, and not have 2 guys at the top of the key. I'll talk more about overloading shortly. We need to run way more high low than we do, flashing Hop, Whit or Cope to the ft line, and immediately dumping inside to Josh, who establishes front of the rim post position. As far as Hop and his poor play goes, he doesn't check himself in and out of games, that's COACHING. Now back to overloading the zone. Please try to see this, because it may be hard to visualize. We set up offensively against the zone, as we normally do, then we send the wing from one side, to the baseline of the opposite side of the floor. Now you have 4 offensive players vs 3 defensive players, one just above the 3 point line extended, the other on the wing, and the 3rd player along the baseline corner. This will leave one wing player alone on the weak side, Josh playing the low block ball side, and the 4 playing the ft line, ball side In this offense, I would have Peak or White at the point, and DSR on the wing, or running the baseline extended. When the ball is passed to the wing, he will draw a defender, when he does, he can drive and kick to the baseline player or simply pass it to him. That's going to draw a big man running out to defend that shot. Trust me, when that ball is passed a few times, he doesn't want to get out there, but when he does, that leave the low block open, and it leave the lane open for the wing player to cut for an easy basket. There are so many scoring options when you overload a zone in that way, it creates openings and mismatches that can be exploited all game. I have played in and coached this offense, and believe me, it works. Anytime we run it against a zone, the opposing team quickly goes back t man to man. I just don't see us doing much movement at all vs the zone, just a lot of stagnant passing around the perimeter.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 10, 2015 15:35:23 GMT -5
1) FT Shooting -- We just came off a game shooting like 83%. Players like Trawick and Smith have clearly changed their form and are taking more time at the line. This game we missed one FT by someone not named Hopkins. That's on the staff? How about just on Hopkins this time? 2) Zone Offense -- I think the offense looked bad at times and great at times. It's hard to play well against the zone when you can't hit an open jumpshot and your strength is big men down low -- basically the zone is designed to kill us. I thought White looked great at times and especially through most of the second half we looked very good on offense -- lots of penetration and interior passing. Lots of open looks. We missed quite a few of them, including three great plays that Hopkins got 0 points of because he couldn't convert at the rim or at the line. Does it stagnate at time? Absolutely. But it wasn't terrible. The second half box score isn't up yet, but I bet our offense was pretty strong there, especially if you adjust for the Hopkins screw-up. As for the comment people make "We're never good against the zone" -- that's absolute bull Edited. It's been debunked like 50 times. Just look at our O efficiencies over the years against Syracuse. We don't consistently perform worse against the zone. I think we played this game with a Editeding anchor on our team, poor shooting, dumb plays by Josh, inexplicable lack of early aggressiveness by DSR and some bull Edited refs. And we still lost by three in OT. Poor shooting is a recurring problem for this team and that inhibits the ability to solve a zone defense. Also,please don't reference the one game when we shot FTs well as evidence of our FT skill. The team is shooting below 70% for the season and that is with DSR at 87%. Only Peak and Smith are above 70% among the regulars. Several players are shooting very poorly. Since the Hoyas started facing zone on a regular basis the team has struggled to solve it. Have there been moments? Of course once someone hits a few shots, but look at our outside shooting and you will see that it has been poor all year. No one fears any Hoya shooter not named DSR. Also, I agree that Smith played poorly today at times, but just as bad was the play of others. It would be hard to single out anyone today as solely responsible for this loss. I have always believed that you evaluate a team and a player over a series of games, not a single game. My comments were made following today's game but reflect a pattern that is ongoing. Maybe there are no answers this year. What I can say is that without some changes in our offense, this team will struggle against everyone. That change can be as simple as inserting White in place of Hopkins or replacing Trawick and Peak more often with Tre. It's not that simple though. White is already replacing Hopkins a lot at power forward. The problem starts when Josh Smith gets in foul trouble. Then Hopkins has to come in the game to play center. The only other option is really Bradley Hayes but honestly Hayes doesn't do much on either end of the court so you are almost playing 4-5 on offense and defense.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 10, 2015 15:37:43 GMT -5
Math is hard, I know. Make a few of those free throws, and the Hoyas win in regulation. He never would've had to make a good play in OT if there is no OT. Seems pretty logical to me. Of course things wouldn't have played out exactly the same. But if he even hits 3 of 6, I'm willing to bet we have about a 95% chance of winning in regulation. Want to disagree w that? Yes I disagree with that because it doesn't affect an aggregate number of possessions, in theory it only affects the next possession, and from there a different narrative unfolds. Who's to say with any type of accuracy (certainly not 95%) what happens the rest of the game and how much each additional ft positively or adversely affects our team's performance? Maybe he hits his first two, gets overconfident and takes a stupid shot that results in a run out to a transition 3 to get an opposing shooter going on the other end? Maybe he hits 2 of his first three and misses the fourth, but in the process of going after the rebound to try and extend the lead he falls awkwardly on his leg and doesn't play the rest of the game? My point is it's impossible to say what happens in totality with any type of accuracy, that's simply not how sports work, that's why there's coachjng and strategy involved. The coach has to coach based off of what is actually happening, not based off of what should happen on paper or in theory. That's called getting ahead of yourself. By your logic if Henton hits one more three (brings him to 2/6, still below his avg) then they win by three in regulation. You wouldn't argue that had he hit another three that there is a 95% chance they'd win in regulation, regardless of when he hit it, would you?
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 10, 2015 15:39:39 GMT -5
Today will be remembered in History as the day the shots did not fall in Providence, Rhode Island. JT did a fantastic job of coaching--don't care what anyone says. Josh played, perhaps, his best game as a Hoya. The team played well. Hopkins played well. He also had six free throws that you have to make in this kind of situation, in this league. What happened? He missed all six free throws. That's the game. It was more than six free throws I think because he missed some one and ones IIRC. I don't think that was the case. Maybe you're remembering Tre missing the front end.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jan 10, 2015 15:40:37 GMT -5
Still January. It's not winning these games (though that would be nice) it's what you do with the information. I can't be too terribly upset with losing a road game to a good team in this conference especially given the officiating. Missed opportunity but not a back breaker.
That said, the Hoyas are at a crossroads with two games they have to win ahead of their only underdog home game versus Nova.
Will the Hoyas learn? Will Hop play less? Will DSR be more aggressive? Will Peak attack the rim? Is Tre going to be point guard? I think III knows what he has right now. The question will be how he uses it. Steadfast dedication to Hopkins would be potentially the biggest mistake. I want to see how these next couple games go before declaring this team in trouble.
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mfk24
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Post by mfk24 on Jan 10, 2015 15:43:54 GMT -5
Poor shooting is a recurring problem for this team and that inhibits the ability to solve a zone defense. Also,please don't reference the one game when we shot FTs well as evidence of our FT skill. The team is shooting below 70% for the season and that is with DSR at 87%. Only Peak and Smith are above 70% among the regulars. Several players are shooting very poorly. Since the Hoyas started facing zone on a regular basis the team has struggled to solve it. Have there been moments? Of course once someone hits a few shots, but look at our outside shooting and you will see that it has been poor all year. No one fears any Hoya shooter not named DSR. Also, I agree that Smith played poorly today at times, but just as bad was the play of others. It would be hard to single out anyone today as solely responsible for this loss. I have always believed that you evaluate a team and a player over a series of games, not a single game. My comments were made following today's game but reflect a pattern that is ongoing. Maybe there are no answers this year. What I can say is that without some changes in our offense, this team will struggle against everyone. That change can be as simple as inserting White in place of Hopkins or replacing Trawick and Peak more often with Tre. It's not that simple though. White is already replacing Hopkins a lot at power forward. The problem starts when Josh Smith gets in foul trouble. Then Hopkins has to come in the game to play center. The only other option is really Bradley Hayes but honestly Hayes doesn't do much on either end of the court so you are almost playing 4-5 on offense and defense. It's not even a foul trouble problem because Josh is only good for about 25 mins anyway. It's a personnel problem at the 5 because we don't have anyone to play the other 15 mins but Hopkins or Hayes. At this point I'd rather they split the remaining minutes. Hayes at least hit that baseline 5 footer and I think could probably execute a pick and roll.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Jan 10, 2015 15:44:42 GMT -5
I think you assume that Hopkins must be used as Smiths's backup primarily. It means going a little smaller but honestly we are playing that way now for large stretches of the game.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 10, 2015 15:47:22 GMT -5
Still January. It's not winning these games (though that would be nice) it's what you do with the information. I can't be too terribly upset with losing a road game to a good team in this conference especially given the officiating. Missed opportunity but not a back breaker. That said, the Hoyas are at a crossroads with two games they have to win ahead of their only underdog home game versus Nova. Will the Hoyas learn? Will Hop play less? Will DSR be more aggressive? Will Peak attack the rim? Is Tre going to be point guard? I think III knows what he has right now. The question will be how he uses it. Steadfast dedication to Hopkins would be potentially the biggest mistake. I want to see how these next couple games go before declaring this team in trouble. I just don't see this steadfast dedication to Hopkins. He only played 21 minutes. He even played Bradley Hayes 7 minutes and in that time Hayes got 1 rebound and two fouls. Somebody has to come in when Josh Smith is in foul trouble and Paul White and Copeland are just too small to play center at the Big East level. (In fact they really aren't strong enough to play power forward at the Big East level this year but White is playing it out of necessity). Defensively the rebounding and rim protecting that Hopkins brings at center is important. If his offense can just be minimized (which it has for the most part this year.) then he is a better option than Bradley Hayes because either way you are playing 4-5 on offense and Hayes' defense and rebounding is miles beind.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 15:49:55 GMT -5
Still January. It's not winning these games (though that would be nice) it's what you do with the information. I can't be too terribly upset with losing a road game to a good team in this conference especially given the officiating. Missed opportunity but not a back breaker. That said, the Hoyas are at a crossroads with two games they have to win ahead of their only underdog home game versus Nova. Will the Hoyas learn? Will Hop play less? Will DSR be more aggressive? Will Peak attack the rim? Is Tre going to be point guard? I think III knows what he has right now. The question will be how he uses it. Steadfast dedication to Hopkins would be potentially the biggest mistake. I want to see how these next couple games go before declaring this team in trouble. This is the big question. Does JT3 make the hard choices that are needed to help this team win? Does he tell his senior forward his playing time is cut for Copeland/White? Does he give the keys to Tre and let him play the pg position? I think JT3 probably knows he needs to do these things deep down, but he's conservative by nature....
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