hoyazeke
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by hoyazeke on Jan 10, 2015 14:43:56 GMT -5
Hop's d is so good but if he goes 2-6or3-6 we would have won this game. Easy to say that, but that would be to ignore the other variables that go into winning close games. I agree with your sentiment, but his last missed ft came with like 4 mins remaining in regulation and has no bearing on how we played in the final minute or even OT. Hop's last miss was at 1:57 but he missed 4 in a row with the score tied at 46. I'm not putting the loss squarely on Hop but when you're on the road it's important to control the crowd. 2or3 of those 6 puts Provy down and puts more pressure on their shots. Maybe they step up and make big shots but late in the game I would like to see if they can.
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 10, 2015 14:44:18 GMT -5
Good: Josh 14 and 12. Can't ask for more than that. White: Didn't shoot well but came to play.
Bad: No #2 option in offense when DSR is struggling. Peak in a slump. Can't figure out a zone defense. Bowen can't play D and faded out of the lineup.
Ugly: Hopkins 0-6 from the line. One GU basket in final 3 mins. of regulation and one in its final 4:30 of overtime. Copeland seemingly a non-factor now. Cameron, even less.
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by guru on Jan 10, 2015 14:44:27 GMT -5
Guru, as an in game poster, you are awful. I guess it's pile on guru day, huh? On a message board, I'd rather be correct than popular. And on the subject of JT3's coaching this season, I am 100% correct. It has been subpar, often egregiously so. I do not enjoy taking this position. I admire JT3 as a person and hope he can turn it around. But this season, he has not been good. Today was just the latest proof.
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NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by NCHoya on Jan 10, 2015 14:44:43 GMT -5
I tend to agree with SF, we played pretty well against the zone. White played his role very well, and took the shot we had all been clamouring for after last game from the elbow area. We got quality shots and that is all III can really do.
I think people are disregarding how BAD Hopkins played. I hate picking on individual players, but his teammates set him up perfectly on several occasions where he either missed FTs or did not even get a real shot up. If that is a competent player there, the offensive results are completely different.
The plays were there, we just do not always have the personnel to make them.
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iverwig
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 130
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Post by iverwig on Jan 10, 2015 14:45:17 GMT -5
To all the folks whining about JTIII, it would help if you had a single specific complaint anywhere in there. We get a great road win today if Hopkins doesn't completely and utterly Edited the bed. Four turnovers, 0-6 from the FT line, two colossally stupid and bad goaltends. We get a great road win if DSR would be more aggressive. We get a great road win if Josh Smith actually thinks about how many fouls we have. We have a great road win if the officials don't decide halfway through the second half to give it to Providence. And yeah, some of those set plays were awful. But you're a moron if you think JTIII is in the huddle going "stop moving on offense; DSR -- never shoot!" Guru -- you did type a bunch of things a couple of days ago. I completely debunked a couple as factual incorrect. You didn't bother to respond. And if your brother in arms is freaking hoyacane -- the dude who only complains about the coach, well, good luck with that. Cry me a freakin river. III coached horribly in that game, and has in others this year as well. We run the same elementary sh.. on offense every single game. Never do you see anything new from him. We have too much talent and depth on this team to have sustained droughts and look so stagnant on offense. You know how you get your star player to shoot more when he's not shooting? You call a freakin play for him. Problem is, III doesn't have any. That garbage he called at the end of regulation was embarrassing, but that was the best he could do. smh I've been a Hoya for 30 years, so don't pull that superfan sh.. on me bruh. If he's not doing a good job coaching I will say it. If you don't like it, don't read it. This^^^^I agree wholeheartedly!
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rockhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 10, 2015 14:45:20 GMT -5
DSR had the shot initially on the josh screen but did not take it for some reason. Here you go, rock. Not just me. Ok, I wasn't implying that it was just you but just because he had a sliver of space doesn't mean he should take it if it's not a good shot. The Paul three was more wide open and in rhythm. The problem with that play is that rather than wittle down the clock, then run out set we ran the set, and then tried to run down the clock (to make sure Providence didn't have a chance to tie/win). In that situation you either take the quickest clean shot, or the last possible shot and we were stuck in between.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,899
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 10, 2015 14:45:59 GMT -5
To all the folks whining about JTIII, it would help if you had a single specific complaint anywhere in there. We get a great road win today if Hopkins doesn't completely and utterly Edited the bed. Four turnovers, 0-6 from the FT line, two colossally stupid and bad goaltends. We get a great road win if DSR would be more aggressive. We get a great road win if Josh Smith actually thinks about how many fouls we have. We have a great road win if the officials don't decide halfway through the second half to give it to Providence. And yeah, some of those set plays were awful. But you're a moron if you think JTIII is in the huddle going "stop moving on offense; DSR -- never shoot!" Guru -- you did type a bunch of things a couple of days ago. I completely debunked a couple as factual incorrect. You didn't bother to respond. And if your brother in arms is freaking hoyacane -- the dude who only complains about the coach, well, good luck with that. Cry me a freakin river. III coached horribly in that game, and has in others this year as well. We run the same elementary sh.. on offense every single game. Never do you see anything new from him. We have too much talent and depth on this team to have sustained droughts and look so stagnant on offense. You know how you get your star player to shoot more when he's not shooting? You call a freakin play for him. Problem is, III doesn't have any. That garbage he called at the end of regulation was embarrassing, but that was the best he could do. smh I've been a Hoya for 30 years, so don't pull that superfan sh.. on me bruh. If he's not doing a good job coaching I will say it. If you don't like it, don't read it. Ahhh, the always collossally brilliant posting stylings of hoyacane. *Over the last few years, we've constantly evolved our offense depending on who is on the team. With Josh, without. Last year's focused on Markel and DSR creating. The offense of the Final Four years was drastically different. *I don't think he's great with set plays. I don't think he's terrible either. He had a couple of great plays along the baseline off the timeout this game that no one has given credit and he had some bogged down plays at the end. He gets blasted when he uses DSR as a decoy and when he sets it up for him. If Paul White makes that 3, he's a genius. He didn't, so he's not. *There's a great post by CO on droughts. Providence had massive droughts this game -- does Cooley suck, too? Tell me this coach without droughts, please. Let's see the list of coaches clearly better than JTIII. Since you think he sucks, it should be AT least 100 coaches long. *What superfan ? It's not superfan to say you only bitch about the coach. *I love this: "If you don't like it, don't read it." You posted on a public message board and apparently you get all Editeding butthurt when someone actually responds in something other than the affirmative. This is like talking with a five year old. There's no guarantee people aren't going to disagree with you.
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njhoya78
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,807
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 10, 2015 14:46:31 GMT -5
This board right now resembles Dresden, Germany after the Allies attacked in WW2. Nothing but flames and ruins.
About Hopkins (and this is just my two cents): Yes, he had some nice shot blocks and rebounds today. However, I am at the point that his contributions defensively are not enough to offset his lack of contribution offensively. It was putrid today. We are better off turning down the foul shots when he is fouled, and just take the ball out of bounds. I haven't looked at the box score (and, to keep my blood pressure in normal range, I may never look at it), but Hopkins's line score in today's game might be as bad a game by a Hoya as we've seen in decades. At least Nate Lubick could pass the ball.
As for what JT3 should have done. . .when your best player is not looking to take the game over in crunch time, there are not many options. Only Paul White wanted the ball down the stretch. He is going to be a very special player. He did not shy away from the moment.
This game was eminently winnable. We didn't get it done. I don't have a great amount of confidence that they will get it done as the season progresses, without some changes in player rotation (i.e. more time for White and Ike Copeland, less for Hopkins) and game pace; I didn't see a whole lot of urgency out there when it was needed, and that causes me more than a little concern.
If JT3 is wedded to using Hopkins in this role going forward, I'm going to stock up on Maalox.
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Post by capcenterhoya on Jan 10, 2015 14:47:06 GMT -5
I think we need to look long and hard at this "talent" we are praising. LJ Peak cannot buy a basket outside of 3 feet right now. Copeland looks completely lost out there. White was 4-12 with 4 turnovers, and people are praising his performance compared to others. Trawick is never going to be a guy we can rely on for offense. I think these guys can play better, but it may not be this season. DSR can only do so much on his own, and Smith can only be effective for so many minutes a game.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Jan 10, 2015 14:47:29 GMT -5
This was a poorly played, officiated, and coached game. Literally everyone on the court was bad. I award them no points. And may God have mercy on their souls.
Seriously, it's OK to be critical of JTIII in this one, because I'd like to see us play quicker against the zone and get the ball in to the middle faster. We try to expand the zone through perimeter passing first, which is fine if it's packed in, but today it wasn't. It's also OK to be critical of that final possession....as with some times in the past, I'm OK with DSR having the ball there, but just have another three point shooter set the pick for DSR, so we can get a pop out of a shooter. I have no problem at all with that final shot of regulation by White.
But to everyone saying "execute a half-court offense," we got decent looks. But when you're 4-17 from three. And when your primary zone buster at the foul line is 4-12. And when every time you successfully get inside the zone for an easy look they (smartly) hack the crap out of you. Well, you're going to have a hard time.
I don't really know what to say about Hopkins. It is what it is. If Josh is in foul trouble, what are you going to do on the defensive end at the five position? You can talk about White and Copeland all you want, but they can't play the five. And Hayes can't secure a rebound or be a defensive presence, which was what we desperately needed (and what Hopkins gave us). He makes any of the free throws, we win.
Finally, it's losses like this that will send us to the NIT? Really? We lost to an RPI top-20 team on the road. Our RPI is still in the 30s. It'd be nice to win the next two and be playing well going into the home game with Nova.
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NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by NCHoya on Jan 10, 2015 14:48:49 GMT -5
Easy to say that, but that would be to ignore the other variables that go into winning close games. I agree with your sentiment, but his last missed ft came with like 4 mins remaining in regulation and has no bearing on how we played in the final minute or even OT. Hop's last miss was at 1:57 but he missed 4 in a row with the score tied at 46. I'm not putting the loss squarely on Hop but when you're on the road it's important to control the crowd. 2or3 of those 6 puts Provy down and puts more pressure on their shots. Maybe they step up and make big shots but late in the game I would like to see if they can. Exactly and the OT score was 50-50, so there were only 4 points scored after he missed 4 FTs in a row, so it is hard to see how Hop did not cost us the game.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 14:49:28 GMT -5
well, to be fair, jt3 had a role in hopkins terrible play, by, you know, putting him in the game. It should be clear by now that Hop's minutes should be highly limited and Copeland and White should play the 4. If we must lose due to our power forward making bonehead plays I'd rather it be because Copeland is learning on the job. And frankly, I think he'll do just fine in the 4 spot. But at this point, we know exactly what we're getting from Hopkins in that position..... Except he has to play the 5 because Josh is only good for about 25 mins regardless of foul trouble and Hayes can't rebound. Agreed Hopkins should never play the 4. White and Copeland split those minutes and be done with it but we're stuck at the 5. Ok, that's fine, but Hopkins is still minutes at the 4.....
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iverwig
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 130
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Post by iverwig on Jan 10, 2015 14:50:15 GMT -5
I think we need to look long and hard at this "talent" we are praising. LJ Peak cannot buy a basket outside of 3 feet right now. Copeland looks completely lost out there. White was 4-12 with 4 turnovers, and people are praising his performance compared to others. Trawick is never going to be a guy we can rely on for offense. I think these guys can play better, but it may not be this season. DSR can only do so much on his own, and Smith can only be effective for so many minutes a game. The issue is JT III is not designing the offense to fit the teams athleticism. They look lost out there against certain defenses and this is not the first year with these issues.
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,593
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Post by This Just In on Jan 10, 2015 14:50:23 GMT -5
Final Thoughts:
1. I am not going to bother whining about the refs cause if the team plays better than it is a non-factor. 2. In-spite of things that went wrong the Hoyas got the game to OT and only lost the game by 3pts. 3. You are not going to win many games shooting under 36% FG and 23.5% 4/17 3pt. FG's 4. Hopper has officially become this year's whipping boy 5. A lot of frustrations about JTIII seems to come from the high expectations given to the 4 Freshmen and the struggles of Hopper
Questions:
1. Do posters want to see a different starting 5? 2. Do posters want to see a different playing rotation? 3. Are posters frustrated with the performance of the Freshman? 4. Do posters feel the Freshmen are not being coached up? 5. Have posters given up on Hopper? 6. Are poster more frustrated with the Hoyas' defensive performance or the offensive performance?
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Post by aleutianhoya on Jan 10, 2015 14:50:26 GMT -5
That's fair. And I hardly agree with all of JTIII's decisions. I just think people put way too emphasis on the coach versus the players -- good and bad. JTIII is a good coach. He knows how to beat a zone -- his teams have done it a ton of times. He does have systematic weaknesses, I think, but they aren't often what people say. But he's not going to make a bad team great or a great team bad. He's currently making a good team with a lot of talent and depth into a very average or below average team. The sets he runs of offense make this team waaay too easy to guard. He gets paid too much money to be so predictable on offense. He needs to try and run sets teams hasn't seen us run before. Some of the stuff he sent out there today was horrible. What "sets"? We're not going to run a flex against their defense. This was a zone defense, virtually the entire game. We tried a lot of different things. We picked the high defender to get White the ball in the short corner (I actually think a fair criticism is we didn't do that enough). We spread the zone early and tried to flash to the high post late. We tried to post against it. We tried reversals. We simply didn't move the ball fast enough. I still think Josh at the high post is something we need to try; he has a good feel for quick ball movement and reversals. No one else does. But to suggest that we need to try to do things teams haven't seen before is absurd. It's a 2-3 zone! We did all the things you can try! I suppose we didn't have DSR get a hand-up from Mikael and somersault in the air for an alley-oop to Paul. But other than that?
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by prhoya on Jan 10, 2015 14:50:29 GMT -5
Here you go, rock. Not just me. Ok, I wasn't implying that it was just you but just because he had a sliver of space doesn't mean he should take it if it's not a good shot. The Paul three was more wide open and in rhythm. The problem with that play is that rather than wittle down the clock, then run out set we ran the set, and then tried to run down the clock (to make sure Providence didn't have a chance to tie/win). In that situation you either take the quickest clean shot, or the last possible shot and we were stuck in between. Plus, have someone else bring the ball up.
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mfk24
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by mfk24 on Jan 10, 2015 14:52:28 GMT -5
Winning today doesn't negate the poor decisions that he's made today. I don't understand that logic. That isn't the point. When we come from behind and beat a team like Indiana in the 2nd half, there is no acknowledgement of coaching success but when we lose a Big East game on the road where your Senior PF goes 0 for 6 from the foul line in the second half and the whistles got extremely uneven after the 12:30 mark, the coach sucks. Exactly. I think everyone acknowledges that III has deficiencies as a coach but there isn't a single coach out there without them. He definitely made some mistakes in this game, namely in managing the lineup ( see Hopkins, no minutes for Cameron against a zone, etc. )but It's as if people honestly believe III. Is telling guys to stand around the perimeter and pass the ball around not looking to penetrate, not flashing to the middle, and telling DSR not to shoot. We've seen him in the huddle telling guys the right thing. We've seen him drawing up new plays. I can think of one right off the top of my head in THIS game where he drew up the play for the Peak layup down the middle of the lane out of a time out. III is not without faults but he's a plus coach in the grand scheme.
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rockhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 10, 2015 14:52:50 GMT -5
Easy to say that, but that would be to ignore the other variables that go into winning close games. I agree with your sentiment, but his last missed ft came with like 4 mins remaining in regulation and has no bearing on how we played in the final minute or even OT. Hop's last miss was at 1:57 but he missed 4 in a row with the score tied at 46. I'm not putting the loss squarely on Hop but when you're on the road it's important to control the crowd. 2or3 of those 6 puts Provy down and puts more pressure on their shots. Maybe they step up and make big shots but late in the game I would like to see if they can. True. I thought it was 4 mins left, my b. That does make a difference. I was just cautioning the "he had a goaltend three minutes into the game, so it's on him that the game is still tied" logics. But I agree, horrible performance from him at the line today. It's interesting because, as a coach and fan, you're not usually supposed to get upset with a player when they make a mistake that's a result of thei physical limitations, more when they make a mental mistake that's indicative of a lack of preparation or discipline. Personally, I'd put FTs into the category of physical limitation for some players more than others, and I can't tell whether to put al the blame on Hop or give him some measure of a pass based on the fact that he may be trying his hardest.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 10, 2015 14:52:57 GMT -5
That's fair. And I hardly agree with all of JTIII's decisions. I just think people put way too emphasis on the coach versus the players -- good and bad. JTIII is a good coach. He knows how to beat a zone -- his teams have done it a ton of times. He does have systematic weaknesses, I think, but they aren't often what people say. But he's not going to make a bad team great or a great team bad. He's currently making a good team with a lot of talent and depth into a very average or below average team. The sets he runs of offense make this team waaay too easy to guard. He gets paid too much money to be so predictable on offense. He needs to try and run sets teams hasn't seen us run before. Some of the stuff he sent out there today was horrible. Yes, we know you don't like the offense. We'e heard it. What do you find "unpredictable"? Isolation plays? What is this offense missing? We run. We run pick and roll (3 that Hopkins botches), we flash to the FT line and to the baseline against the zone. We dribble drive into the seams. We run cuts every once in a while. We dump it down the big man (not enough). We don't run all these that well. We get stagnant at times. But these are all in the playbook. Things I think we are missing: isolation plays (for who, I don't know); curls off screens. The latter one is just about the only thing I can think of that I'd really like to see. I also think this team could go inside-out quicker. Mostly I just think we are slow at rotating the ball. What are we missing?
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rockhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 10, 2015 14:53:46 GMT -5
I guess it's pile on guru day, huh? On a message board, I'd rather be correct than popular. And on the subject of JT3's coaching this season, I am 100% correct. It has been subpar, often egregiously so. I do not enjoy taking this position. I admire JT3 as a person and hope he can turn it around. But this season, he has not been good. Today was just the latest proof. Better to be correct than popular, especially on this board.
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