hoyarooter
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by hoyarooter on Sept 14, 2012 20:42:12 GMT -5
"I never thought of athletic conferences--with the exception of the Ivy League--from an academic point of view."
And neither does anyone else, other than happyhoya.
Notre Dame is clearly a huge loss academically. No one could deny that. But let's face it, this conference never was and never will be an academic powerhouse. Going by happyhoya's logic, there was little reason for our having gone along with the founding of the Big East in the first plaee. Does anyone want to reverse that decision?
The worst thing about Notre Dame leaving is that it lends some credence to Ranch's Chicken Little routine. In the meantime, many people outside of the clearly biased WWL still think that the Big East is going to get a significant TV contract after the WWL's 60 day waste of time window expires. If that fails to happen, then I'll worry.
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Post by fsohoya on Sept 14, 2012 20:43:00 GMT -5
Like it or not, the company we keep with our athletic partners has a great deal to do with sustaining the academic reputation of the university. Look at what the Big East has lost over the past few years. While Syracuse and UPitt were not great schools, at least the former had the Maxwell School and the latter a strong medical school and AAU membership. Notre Dame is a top 20 school. Virginia Tech is one of the top 10 engineering schools in the nation. WVU may be a huge party school but it at least had a phi beta kappa chapter. The loss of these members is devastating. That's an overstatement. Syracuse and Pitt are each #58 in the US News survey. But newcomer SMU is #58 as well. West Virginia is #164, not far removed from Central Florida. The US News numbers (and many methodologies) skew favorably to research universities. Thirteen of the 15 ACC schools qualify as such. But because Catholic schools do not score highly in institutional rankings (only seven of the US News Top 100 are Catholic) and reseach institutions are comparatively rare among Catholic schools (e.g., GU is the only Catholic school in the East--and one of only four nationally--with both a law and a medical school), only half of the Big East schools would even be considered research oriented. Schools like Villanova and Providence aren't even ranked as national universities, while St. John's (#147) is alongside South Carolina State and Illinois-Chicago. A research school like Florida State or Virginia Tech dwarfs a Seton Hall or DePaul in rankings, but they have much different missions, too. But in the long run, no one is measuring Georgetown's national prestige because they play Memphis or Cincinnati in basketball. But the Big East remains far preferable to the available options out there, emphasis on "available". The ACC or Big 10 isn't interested. Neither is the Ivy. The best option is the house it built. The Big East needs more builders, not more bailers. Nova is the #1 regional university in the North. Providence is #4. Not terrible. |
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Post by reformation on Sept 14, 2012 21:40:42 GMT -5
I think part of the frustration with the "academic" downgrading of the conference also reflects the fact that there are only a few universities left in the BE that Gtwn fans really care about playing. There are clearly a few left, but its just not what we've been used to and now is less interesting than the ACC certainly and probably the Big 10 etc.. Also to some degree all of our peers/rivals are part of a conference which is substantially better athletically, academically or both vis a vis where we are. I guess also there is some feeling of helplessness as Gtwn basically watches events around us unfold generally to our detriment. Also I think most of us either think the admin lacks either the competence or concern to navigate these issues for Gtwn
I think that something as simple as scheduling can help address some of the academic + athletic rivalry issues caused by the Big East exodus. Joining a premier conference for some sports is a long shot, but it should at least be explored for certain sports if not the program overall.
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jgalt
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,380
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Post by jgalt on Sept 14, 2012 22:07:52 GMT -5
I never thought of athletic conferences--with the exception of the Ivy League--from an academic point of view. Conferences are a creation of the NCAA sports machine. Regardless of historical purpose, they continue to exist today for the purpose of providing vehicles to promote sports competition. As we now know, in the case of football and basketball, revenue enhancement is also a major factor. I have no problem with the Hoyas playing in a conference with the remaining BE schools. I am certain they each have many alumni worthy of us. When I went to GULC, I never could understand the arrogance of some (though by no means all) of my classmates who had attended Ivy League schools, the undergraduate school on the hilltop, Notre Dame or other elite liberal arts colleges. All of these schools are great institutions, but the performance of students in the law school over the three years I attended did not reflect any obvious discrepancy between quality academic institutions and "lesser" schools. Yes exactly. The level of education at large state schools varies wildly with how much you put into it. Many of the top programs in various subjects are at State schools that most people consider "safety" schools. Programs like the Gem Stone one at Maryland are in many ways just as good as Gtown. |
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Post by ivyhoya on Sept 15, 2012 12:43:46 GMT -5
Let's have it all. Why can't we keep basketball in the Big East and have alll the other sports go to the Ivy League? After all, Notre Dame can have it all keeping football and hockey independent while being in the ACC for all else. That way we could fund all our secondary sports, play all our secondary sports, keep our football team non-scholarship and just generally enjoy life from September through June.
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thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by thebin on Sept 15, 2012 15:21:15 GMT -5
I can't believe there are people still that think joining the ivy league is a remote possibility if we only we could lower OUR standards. And join without bringing our only valuable asset no less!
It is a closed club and they are not looking for members. If they were, we would not be on their top 5 list. Way too poor.
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jgalt
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,380
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Post by jgalt on Sept 15, 2012 16:15:59 GMT -5
There is more of a chance of football going FBS than Gtown going Ivy
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Post by reformation on Sept 15, 2012 18:51:20 GMT -5
I wonder if DeGioia or Lee Reed have said anything about the BE /our athletic program since the ND exit--
neither of them generally says much other than list out platitudes, but i'm curious if anyone has seen them in some kind of Q&A oost the ND announcement.
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DanMcQ
Moderator 
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Post by DanMcQ on Sept 15, 2012 21:48:20 GMT -5
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Sept 15, 2012 23:44:46 GMT -5
Uh huh.
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hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
Posts: 8,398 
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Post by hoyainspirit on Sept 18, 2012 6:54:22 GMT -5
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Sept 18, 2012 9:37:29 GMT -5
It's hard to quibble with this analysis, though I do think there's a possibility that the new Big East programs will improve in the next several years, which would obviously elevate the programs. No doubt, recruiting for SMU, Houston, Temple, and UCF should improve. SMU and Houston have been awful, but Temple has been a contender and UCF isn't as bad as people would think. Still, it illustrates the weakness of the Big East. Georgetown's priority should be getting out of the Big East into a conference with a more stable outlook. The Big East is the best of our current options, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking elsewhere, even if it seems like there are no other options. |
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hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
Posts: 8,398
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Post by hoyainspirit on Sept 18, 2012 9:54:26 GMT -5
It's hard to quibble with this analysis, though I do think there's a possibility that the new Big East programs will improve in the next several years, which would obviously elevate the programs. No doubt, recruiting for SMU, Houston, Temple, and UCF should improve. SMU and Houston have been awful, but Temple has been a contender and UCF isn't as bad as people would think. Still, it illustrates the weakness of the Big East. Georgetown's priority should be getting out of the Big East into a conference with a more stable outlook. The Big East is the best of our current options, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking elsewhere, even if it seems like there are no other options. |
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 18, 2012 11:31:11 GMT -5
The Big East is the best of our current options, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking elsewhere, even if it seems like there are no other options. A brief look at the landcsape leaves very few options. Eliminate those conferences in the Pacific, Mountain and Central time zones, conferences which require I-A football to join, and the HBCU's. You're left with these conferences, few if any that can support a $9 million basketball program: A-10, America East, Atlantic Sun, Big South, Colonial, Ivy, MAAC, NEC, and Patriot. None of these are serious candidates to get Georgetown to pay $5-10 million to leave where it is now. And the CYO League concept fails on this competitive point: the NCAA now has a seven year wait before a new conference can earn an autobid. |
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thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by thebin on Sept 18, 2012 11:44:32 GMT -5
While I remain a proponent of sticking with the biggest football teams we can cash in on the dearth of available college sports programming on the market during a boom time tv sports-wise....does it really matter that the CYO league won't have an auto bid? I mean it will be a good enough conference so that surely the best 2-4 teams will get at larges. It seems to me the auto-bid was huge in BCS football but didn't matter much in hoops unless you were in one of the really bad to middling leagues. Nobody will be able to say a league with Gtown, Nova, Marquette, Xavier, etc is a middling league.
I'm not saying let's move towards CYO until all other options are exhausted- which I do not expect them to be- but isn't the auto bid a formality on a league with several proven big time hoops programs? Isn't that really only important to the Patriot leagues of the world?
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Sept 18, 2012 12:02:43 GMT -5
A brief look at the landcsape leaves very few options. Eliminate those conferences in the Pacific, Mountain and Central time zones, conferences which require I-A football to join, and the HBCU's. You're left with these conferences, few if any that can support a $9 million basketball program: A-10, America East, Atlantic Sun, Big South, Colonial, Ivy, MAAC, NEC, and Patriot. None of these are serious candidates to get Georgetown to pay $5-10 million to leave where it is now. And the CYO League concept fails on this competitive point: the NCAA now has a seven year wait before a new conference can earn an autobid. I agree. There are very few options, which is one of the frustrating things from a fan's perspective. If I were Georgetown, I would do my best to test the ACC waters and any other major conferences that might be willing to expand. I agree that aside from the ACC, there's not much out there in this regard. When I wrote that I wanted a "stable" place to play, I meant a conference that will continue to allow us to field a top team, get top recruits, and get exposure. In fact, I think that the only acceptable option would be to leave for the ACC or another major conference. Since those options are not likely available, we have no choice but to ride out the Big East. I have said many times before here that starting a new conference is a non-starter because of the wait for an NCAA autobid and I think that stands today. A new conference without an autobid would instantly be viewed as mid-major or below and make the conference look irrelevant. Try to convince recruits to join a team that has no chance with an autobid. The beauty of the autobid is that it gives nearly EVERY TEAM a theoretical chance to make the NCAA tournament if they are even halfway decent. Instead, if the "Catholic League" idea ever happens, my guess is that it would be the direct remnants of the Big East plus a few other teams after most of the football teams have left for better pastures. |
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by calhoya on Sept 18, 2012 12:09:23 GMT -5
I think that the problem at the bottom has been there for some time. I would say that a more likely issue is the strength of the "middle" of the pack. The 8-9 team invitations were based upon the strength of teams finishing 9-12 in the BE. The quality of those teams may be diminished short-term. I am an optimist however, that some of the poor performers are starting to improve--USF, Providence, Seton Hall, and even Depaul. Time will tell.
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skyhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by skyhoya on Sept 18, 2012 12:15:01 GMT -5
Providence, SH and DePaul, no programs worth anything for the near future.
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Post by vamosalaplaya on Sept 18, 2012 13:23:31 GMT -5
Taking a snapshot of last year's Big East and then tallying the comings and goings is an interesting academic exercise - and Winn has to fill his days with something - but overall I think it is premature. The new schools will all benefit from their Big East affiliation in terms of recruiting in hoops and schools like Houston and SMU all have traditions to draw on to make the leap, while Temple and Memphis are already outstanding. As for the departures, watch Pitt in particular - they benefited enormously from the Big East in hoops and playing in the league of Duke, UNC, and Everyone Else may hurt them in a number of ways.
It's all about the NBC TV contract at this point. Whether the Big East has 6, 7, or 8 NCAA teams next year isn't the measure. A solid TV contract and a the BET in NYC and the conference will quickly rise to one of the top two hoops conferences in America.
Also love the new commish. ACC football just got so much worse, and the ND "all for one, one for ND" football agenda is going to make schools like Clemson, Virginia Tech, and Florida State furious over time.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Sept 18, 2012 15:49:45 GMT -5
Taking a snapshot of last year's Big East and then tallying the comings and goings is an interesting academic exercise - and Winn has to fill his days with something - but overall I think it is premature. The new schools will all benefit from their Big East affiliation in terms of recruiting in hoops and schools like Houston and SMU all have traditions to draw on to make the leap, while Temple and Memphis are already outstanding. As for the departures, watch Pitt in particular - they benefited enormously from the Big East in hoops and playing in the league of Duke, UNC, and Everyone Else may hurt them in a number of ways. It's all about the NBC TV contract at this point. Whether the Big East has 6, 7, or 8 NCAA teams next year isn't the measure. A solid TV contract and a the BET in NYC and the conference will quickly rise to one of the top two hoops conferences in America. Also love the new commish. ACC football just got so much worse, and the ND "all for one, one for ND" football agenda is going to make schools like Clemson, Virginia Tech, and Florida State furious over time. I was surprised that those schools agreed to the $50 million fee to secede(I presume it required a unanimous vote, or we would have heard about dissension), since they would seem the most likely targets from the ACC for other conferences; makes me wonder whether they may have an inkling that ND will eventually be joining for football as well, skyrocketing the TV contract. The issue did not pass unanimously. Maryland and Florida State voted no.--Adminarticles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-09-12/sports/os-florida-state-acc-exit-fee-vote-20120912_1_exit-fee-new-fsu-fsu-athletics-director |
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