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Post by hoyawatcher on Aug 23, 2012 11:55:04 GMT -5
Both teams are really really good. So saying 2012 couldn't beat the Dream Team as I believe isn't to say today's team or individual players are somehow "bad". It is simply IMHO an issue of matchups. In that context I think the Spain game is really instructive. 2 good but not great post players plus several marginal to OK NBA players came uncomfortably close to beating the 2012 team by exposing the fact it really had trouble guarding legit post players or pick and roll. I don't think anyone would contend that the Gasols are in the same league as Ewing, Robinson, et al.
If Marc Gasol had been able to play the second half it would have really gotten even more interesting. And I still have visions of LaBron switching the pick and roll and watching Chris Paul trying to guard the Gasol on the roll with Mello coming over to try to provide off side help. Ouch
It is possible Durant or maybe Kobe could have simply shot the 2012 team to victory from the deep wing. But that is a longshot. And avoids the recognition that the 2012 team was a flawed team primarily due to the injuries to Howard and other bigs that kept them off the team. But that is reality though I still don't think K adjusted his roster appropriately - but that is a different topic.
The Dream Team would have pounded the block and pick and roll all game long. While this year's team may have shot it well enough to keep it close, I am not sure how many of them would still be around with the fouls they would have gotten trying to stop better players than the Gasols.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2012 13:03:58 GMT -5
I don't think anyone would contend that the Gasols are in the same league as Ewing, Robinson, et al. I agree. they are not in the same league-The Gasols are better. You describe them as good. They are NBA all-stars in today's league. I will pose the same question that no one wants to answer. How do explain the deterioration of the top players of the NBA league today compared to 1992. You state that the Gasol's are good, but not great and not in Ewing or Robinson's class. All four of them are or were NBA all stars. Why do you think that the abilities of the top players in the NBA have degraded?  |
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 23, 2012 13:07:02 GMT -5
I agree. they are not in the same league-The Gasols are better. You describe them as good. They are NBA all-stars in today's league. [personal attack] DELETED [/personal attack] |
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Post by hoyawatcher on Aug 23, 2012 13:18:59 GMT -5
Wow this is one board I never thought I would have to explain that a one time all star in Marc Gasol is not quite the player HOF level Patrick Ewing is. Mello had trouble and fouled Marc Gasol on the roll. Ewing puts Mello in the third row if he tries to help on D - especially late as he usually was.
This is about matchups. Put Howard on this team and you have a better argument. We are not talking about Russell and Wilt. Not enough time to make the case the players are just so much better it doesn't matter. Spurrious argument.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Aug 23, 2012 13:53:21 GMT -5
I don't think anyone would contend that the Gasols are in the same league as Ewing, Robinson, et al. I agree. they are not in the same league-The Gasols are better. I believe that you have a romanticized view of players of 20 years ago. What? Surely you jest! I believe you have a romanticized view of players today, if you truly believe what you espouse in this thread. I admit that I am really surprised that you feel as you do. Did you not join the board when we hired III? I thought I recalled many excellent basketball posts you have authored. I just can't understand why you think players today are better than Ewing et al. simply because they played 20 years later. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2012 14:08:50 GMT -5
will pose the same question once again that no one wants to answer. How do explain the deterioration of the top players of the NBA league today compared to 1992. You state that the Gasol's are good, but not great and not in Ewing or Robinson's class. All four of them are or were NBA all stars. Why do you think that the abilities of the top players in the NBA have degraded? I don't think that player are better just because they played 20 years later. I just look around at ALL team sports and there is no comparison with the teams 20 years ago. BTW-Gasol can dribble and shoot well with both hands. He can start beyond the foul circle and cross over dribble. He is also cat quick. These are skills that Ewing never had. As a matter of fact, most NBA players today can shoot and dribble with both hands. You didn't see that back in the early 1990s Thanks for the compliments on the other posts. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2012 14:16:53 GMT -5
Wow this is one board I never This is about matchups. Put Howard on this team and you have a better argument. We are not talking about Russell and Wilt. Not enough time to make the case the players are just so much better it doesn't matter. Spurrious argument. I can't let this one sit. Do you think Chamberlain at 7'1", who couldn't shoot at all and with one move (the scoop shot after backing in). He also couldn't dribble at all. Do you really believe that that would work in the league today. |
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 24, 2012 15:19:00 GMT -5
Wow this is one board I never This is about matchups. Put Howard on this team and you have a better argument. We are not talking about Russell and Wilt. Not enough time to make the case the players are just so much better it doesn't matter. Spurrious argument. I can't let this one sit. Do you think Chamberlain at 7'1", who couldn't shoot at all and with one move (the scoop shot after backing in). He also couldn't dribble at all. Do you really believe that that would work in the league today. 1. Shaq and Dwight Howard called in to laugh at your implied theory that a big man cannot dominate based on power alone. 2. Your minimization of Wilt's skills and abilites is almost as crazy as your assertion that the Gasols would mop the floor with Ewing and Robinson. 3. You are correct - players in the 1990's could only dribble with one hand.  Also popular in the 1990's? The two-handed set shot and peach baskets. 4. Gasol is "cat quick?" You better get your cat checked out by the vet because you have one slow-ass cat. |
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Aug 25, 2012 9:41:24 GMT -5
Do you think Chamberlain at 7'1", who couldn't shoot at all and with one move (the scoop shot after backing in). He also couldn't dribble at all. For once in his life, kc is right correct.  You have obviously never seen video of Wilt when he was young. I have, and that statement is incorrect. I've seen clips of Wilt leading the fast break (going around his back in the process), hitting the jumper off the pullup, hitting fadeaways... You are correct in that basketball in the late '50's and early '60's is quite different than today. Like everything, the game and the players have evolved. The players today are far more skilled and athletic. But, sorry, your characterization of the Big Dipper is just wrong. And I do not believe that the Gasols are better than Ewing, despite playing several years after him. Clearly, we just have to agree to disagree on this one. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2012 18:31:05 GMT -5
HI
With respect, you have no idea what you are talking about. I saw Wilt play in the flesh over 20 times and many more times on TV. First of all Wilt could run the floor, and he was a very good passer(he wasn't given enough credit for that). However, he couldn't dribble or shoot. Look, anyone can bounce a ball and he could dribble alone. However, if he had someone in front of him, he couldn't dribble. He had two shots, When he was close to the basket, he could occasionally turn in the opposite direction and hit a bank shot, like Walton did in college. However, in the NBA, almost all of his points were scored on offensive rebounds and the little dip shot where he he would back his man down, reach back and lay the ball in. He was 7'1" and played most of his career at 275 pounds. For a short period, he actually got his weight up to 300lb. Most of the players he played against were much shorter and not nearly as strong. One exception was the Knick's Willis Reed who was 6'10" and was pretty hefty. He actually could shoot and actually neutralized Wilt to some extent. Incidently, Wilt couldn't hit his free throws either, shooting just a little over 50% for a career. You are just wrong. I saw Wilt up close and I am telling you, he would be a bench player today.
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Post by kchoya on Aug 25, 2012 23:11:08 GMT -5
HI With respect, you have no idea what you are talking about. I saw Wilt play in the flesh over 20 times and many more times on TV. First of all Wilt could run the floor, and he was a very good passer(he wasn't given enough credit for that). However, he couldn't dribble or shoot. Look, anyone can bounce a ball and he could dribble alone. However, if he had someone in front of him, he couldn't dribble. He had two shots, When he was close to the basket, he could occasionally turn in the opposite direction and hit a bank shot, like Walton did in college. However, in the NBA, almost all of his points were scored on offensive rebounds and the little dip shot where he he would back his man down, reach back and lay the ball in. He was 7'1" and played most of his career at 275 pounds. For a short period, he actually got his weight up to 300lb. Most of the players he played against were much shorter and not nearly as strong. One exception was the Knick's Willis Reed who was 6'10" and was pretty hefty. He actually could shoot and actually neutralized Wilt to some extent. Incidently, Wilt couldn't hit his free throws either, shooting just a little over 50% for a career. You are just wrong. I saw Wilt up close and I am telling you, he would be a bench player today. Stop these stupid posts.
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Post by guru on Aug 26, 2012 8:58:24 GMT -5
HI With respect, you have no idea what you are talking about. I saw Wilt play in the flesh over 20 times and many more times on TV. First of all Wilt could run the floor, and he was a very good passer(he wasn't given enough credit for that). However, he couldn't dribble or shoot. Look, anyone can bounce a ball and he could dribble alone. However, if he had someone in front of him, he couldn't dribble. He had two shots, When he was close to the basket, he could occasionally turn in the opposite direction and hit a bank shot, like Walton did in college. However, in the NBA, almost all of his points were scored on offensive rebounds and the little dip shot where he he would back his man down, reach back and lay the ball in. He was 7'1" and played most of his career at 275 pounds. For a short period, he actually got his weight up to 300lb. Most of the players he played against were much shorter and not nearly as strong. One exception was the Knick's Willis Reed who was 6'10" and was pretty hefty. He actually could shoot and actually neutralized Wilt to some extent. Incidently, Wilt couldn't hit his free throws either, shooting just a little over 50% for a career. You are just wrong. I saw Wilt up close and I am telling you, he would be a bench player today. Stop these stupid posts. Love that kc posted from a mobile device to make the idiot call. This sort of idiocy could not wait to be addressed! As for JerryLH, he's bonkers. And horrible at arguing - he has taken an entirely defensible position (I believe the 2012 team is better than the Dream Team) and rendered it absurd by using truly stupid and over-the-top supporting points - the Gasols are better than Ewing/Robinson! Wilt Chamberlain sucked! He has earned his ignore status well. |
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Post by DanMcQ on Aug 26, 2012 10:26:39 GMT -5
MOD NOTE: We have a well-established set of posting rules here. You may attack the posts, but not the poster directly. There is a certain amount of hyperbole that we will tolerate, but be aware, we will start deleting posts that cross this line henceforth.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2012 12:52:07 GMT -5
deleted Stop these stupid posts. Love that kc posted from a mobile device to make the idiot call. This sort of idiocy could not wait to be addressed! As for JerryLH, he's bonkers. And horrible at arguing - he has taken an entirely defensible position (I believe the 2012 team is better than the Dream Team) and rendered it absurd by using truly stupid and over-the-top supporting points - the Gasols are better than Ewing/Robinson! Wilt Chamberlain sucked! He has earned his ignore status well. where did I say that Chamberlain sucked?? There are many who believe as I do. Finally, Guru and others. You absolutely ignore my question: Explain why there has been a degrading of skills in top NBA basketball players in the past 20 years. If you want to continue to argue that the Dream team of 1992 was better than the 2012, then you need to address that, rather than just calling me names. Jerry |
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Post by hoyawatcher on Aug 26, 2012 15:52:15 GMT -5
Jerry, I will try one more time
Your question you keep bringing up is just a spurrious rabbit trail. We are not talking about the generalized state of today's players versus 20 years ago. We are talking about HOF level players from the dream team. In that context just saying Marc Gasol is better than Patrick Ewing because he is 20 years newer is really just bazaar. And since we are focusing on the trouble Spain gave this year's team, we would need to extend the comparisons beyond the Gasols to the perimeter players for Spain. Is your contention that someone like Fernadez is better than Jordan because he is 20 years newer?
The question remains the matchup of this year's team to the Dream Team. If you want to contend that the perimeter players for this year's team would simply shoot and maybe run their way past the Dream Team then I guess OK but I think you are way wrong. But you need to say how this year's team that showed it couldn't guard the pick and roll or post game would contend with the post players on the Dream Team. Saying Marc Gasol is better than Ewing doesn't cut it and really just undercuts anything else you try to say.
And BTW you need to improve your reading skills. The post I made that you cut up to start the other rabbit trail on Wilt was saying we are NOT talking about players from the 50s where your point might hold. Glad you got to see him and all that but trying to use him to justify a one time NBA all star in Marc Gasol is better than a recent HOF level player like Ewing or Robinson doesn't cut it.
Again put Howard on this team and it is a much more interesting argument. Until you explain to me how this current team can hide its obvious flaw that it showed against Spain your generalized question about the last 20 years is not relevant.
Anyway, you haven't answered the real question about matchups between these teams
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2012 20:19:12 GMT -5
Hi Hoyawatcher:
I went back to your post about Wilt and Russell and you are correct. I did misead I put those sentences together and I thought you when the players in the following sentence, that you were speaking about them. With that being said, I am frustrated in the same vein. In your last post, you state "In that context just saying Marc Gasol is better than Patrick Ewing because he is 20 years newer is really just bazaar." Where did I say that?? I stated what I felt were skills that the Gasol's have that Ewing and Robinson didn't have. Please reread my post. With respect, I don't believe you understand pick and roll as he was back then and as it is run today. We lost to Lithuania a few years back because our players didn't understand. Let me give you an example. Suppose Barkely the small forward is guarding the 2012's small forward Durant. Durant runs Barkley into the the pick. Now Barkley has two choices, he can go in front of the pick or behind. If he runs in front of the pick, he frees up Durant for an open three. If he goes behind the pick, he has to pick up the pick to guard and the pick's defender now has to guard Durant. That is why you need players who can guard all positions. Lithuania killed us with the pick and roll because our defender always went in front of the pick and we were destroyed with 3 point shots. The Lithuanian who hurt us the most is still on their team. If you notice, this team was stocked with players who can guard almost anyone at any position. Our defenders now go behind the pick for the most part to prevent the open 3 point shot as the Europeans are really good 3 point shooters
You state that the Dream team would pound it inside. Well the 2012 team would play zone, packing it in and challenging the dream team to beat them with 3 point shots. A very good strategy, since the only player who would be a reliable shooter that far out was Mullins (Bird was hurt).
Let's look at matchups as you requested. 2012 starts Labron James and Durant at the forward position. Malone was about the same size as James, but wasn't nearly as fast and was never known as a defensive player. Barkley was under 6'5" and also not known to be a good defensive player. He would have to guard Durant who has a wingspan of someone 7'4" and is a terrific shooter. As he showed in the Olympics, Durant is also an excellent defensive player. Pippin the 3rd forward and for 2012 it is Anthony. Pippen was 6'7" and not that strong. An excellent defender, but he could never stop James, Durant or Anthony. Let's go to center. The dream team has Ewing and Robinson. 2012 has Chandler and Love. As the announcers stated many times, Love's skill set was made for the international game. When Love is in Ewing has to go outside to guard him since he is an excellent 3 point shooter. Chandler was NBA defensive player of the year. Even giving Ewing and Robinson their due, this is a push.
Now for guards. the Dream has Stockton or Magic (well past his prime) and Michael Jordan. Of course Jordan is Jordan, but his presence doesn't make up for the liabilities of the other Dream Team guards as compared to the 2012 team. They go against Paul (Chris) and Kobe. The next guard for the Dream team is Drexler. For the 2012 it is Deron Williams and Westbrook. Is there any question who has the advantage here?? I should also mention, that the only member of the 2012 starters who was not a member of the NBA all defensive team was Durant and he is a dam good defender.
What kills the Dream team against the 2012 is the lack of quality of 3 point shooters. Another problem the dream team has is lack of team speed and quickness. Jordan is the only guard on the Dream team that can keep Kobe or Paul in front of him. Kobe, Paul, Williams or Westbrook get past Magic or Stockton or Drexler with ease.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2012 20:23:30 GMT -5
Hi Hoyawatcher:
I have to post in two parts.
I went back to your post about Wilt and Russell and you are correct. I did misead I put those sentences together and I thought you when the players in the following sentence, that you were speaking about them. With that being said, I am frustrated in the same vein. In your last post, you state "In that context just saying Marc Gasol is better than Patrick Ewing because he is 20 years newer is really just bazaar." Where did I say that?? I stated what I felt were skills that the Gasol's have that Ewing and Robinson didn't have. Please reread my post. With respect, I don't believe you understand pick and roll as he was back then and as it is run today. We lost to Lithuania a few years back because our players didn't understand. Let me give you an example. Suppose Barkely the small forward is guarding the 2012's small forward Durant. Durant runs Barkley into the the pick. Now Barkley has two choices, he can go in front of the pick or behind. If he runs in front of the pick, he frees up Durant for an open three. If he goes behind the pick, he has to pick up the pick to guard and the pick's defender now has to guard Durant. That is why you need players who can guard all positions. Lithuania killed us with the pick and roll because our defender always went in front of the pick and we were destroyed with 3 point shots. The Lithuanian who hurt us the most is still on their team. If you notice, this team was stocked with players who can guard almost anyone at any position. Our defenders now go behind the pick for the most part to prevent the open 3 point shot as the Europeans are really good 3 point shooters
Continued....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2012 20:24:32 GMT -5
Hi Hoyawatcher:
You state that the Dream team would pound it inside. Well the 2012 team would play zone, packing it in and challenging the dream team to beat them with 3 point shots. A very good strategy, since the only player who would be a reliable shooter that far out was Mullins (Bird was hurt).
Let's look at matchups as you requested. 2012 starts Labron James and Durant at the forward position. Malone was about the same size as James, but wasn't nearly as fast and was never known as a defensive player. Barkley was under 6'5" and also not known to be a good defensive player. He would have to guard Durant who has a wingspan of someone 7'4" and is a terrific shooter. As he showed in the Olympics, Durant is also an excellent defensive player. Pippin the 3rd forward and for 2012 it is Anthony. Pippen was 6'7" and not that strong. An excellent defender, but he could never stop James, Durant or Anthony. Let's go to center. The dream team has Ewing and Robinson. 2012 has Chandler and Love. As the announcers stated many times, Love's skill set was made for the international game. When Love is in Ewing has to go outside to guard him since he is an excellent 3 point shooter. Chandler was NBA defensive player of the year. Even giving Ewing and Robinson their due, this is a push.
Now for guards. the Dream has Stockton or Magic (well past his prime) and Michael Jordan. Of course Jordan is Jordan, but his presence doesn't make up for the liabilities of the other Dream Team guards as compared to the 2012 team. They go against Paul (Chris) and Kobe. The next guard for the Dream team is Drexler. For the 2012 it is Deron Williams and Westbrook. Is there any question who has the advantage here?? I should also mention, that the only member of the 2012 starters who was not a member of the NBA all defensive team was Durant and he is a dam good defender.
What kills the Dream team against the 2012 is the lack of quality of 3 point shooters. Another problem the dream team has is lack of team speed and quickness. Jordan is the only guard on the Dream team that can keep Kobe or Paul in front of him. Kobe, Paul, Williams or Westbrook get past Magic or Stockton or Drexler with ease.
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Also popular in the 1990's? The two-handed set shot and peach baskets. 
You have obviously never seen video of Wilt when he was young. I have, and that statement is incorrect. I've seen clips of Wilt leading the fast break (going around his back in the process), hitting the jumper off the pullup, hitting fadeaways... You are correct in that basketball in the late '50's and early '60's is quite different than today. Like everything, the game and the players have evolved. The players today are far more skilled and athletic. But, sorry, your characterization of the Big Dipper is just wrong. And I do not believe that the Gasols are better than Ewing, despite playing several years after him. Clearly, we just have to agree to disagree on this one.
