Olympic Hoops: Dream Team vs. 2012

[Buckets]

Regarding the skills argument, the Dream Team's best shooter in Barcelona went 64/175 in '91-'92 NBA (about on par with what Shannon Brown, Nate Robinson, Leandro Barbosa, and Jrue Holliday shot last season). The NBA decided two years later that the early '90s players were so unimaginably skilled that they needed to move the three point line in and make scoring easier.

Your average player in '91-'92 weighed about 208 pounds, that's up to about 218 now, possibly because there are fewer 6'6", 180 pound guys like Craig Ehlo running around.

[bmartin]

So are you saying there is no way a slim guy could make it in the NBA today? Like Durant or Nowitzki or Curry or Lin?

[kchoya]

Jul 24, 2012 8:37:35 GMT -5 Buckets said:

Regarding the skills argument, the Dream Team's best shooter in Barcelona went 64/175 in '91-'92 NBA (about on par with what Shannon Brown, Nate Robinson, Leandro Barbosa, and Jrue Holliday shot last season). The NBA decided two years later that the early '90s players were so unimaginably skilled that they needed to move the three point line in and make scoring easier.

Your average player in '91-'92 weighed about 208 pounds, that's up to about 218 now, possibly because there are fewer 6'6", 180 pound guys like Craig Ehlo running around.

Are you seriously equating Chris Mullin with Shannon Brown, Nate Robinson, Leandro Barbosa and Jrue Holliday? The level of stupidity in this thread is astounding.

And what's with the Craig Ehlo fetish that suddenly popped up?

[Buckets]

Merely pointing out that there were much few 3-point shots and guys who could make them in the '91-'92 NBA and that the Dream Team's best shooter who actually played would be an extremely unremarkable shooter in today's NBA.

[bmartin]

Because players back then could hit pull-up mid-range jumpers and did not spend their careers either launching threes or driving out of control into traffic expecting bailout calls.

[kchoya]

Jul 24, 2012 9:46:23 GMT -5 Buckets said:

Merely pointing out that there were much few 3-point shots and guys who could make them in the '91-'92 NBA and that the Dream Team's best shooter who actually played would be an extremely unremarkable shooter in today's NBA.

I think you're overrating the stats. Look at Larry Bird's career stats from behind the arc. They don't blow you away, and will be less impressive than, say, Steve Kerr.

[theexorcist]

I tend to think that the 1992 team would win in a walk, simply because Jordan would not let them lose. The interesting difference is that there's a greater emphasis on the three-pointer now, so, if the shots fall, Kobe and company may have a chance.

No, not really. Jordan would kill them.

[NTAMM]

What makes board members think that Chandler would eat Ewing or Robinson alive? Chandler has no offensive game -- none. The only shots he has demonstrated mastery over are lay ups and dunks. He has no post game, he cannot post up and cannot beat his defender to the basket by attacking off the dribble, he cannot/does not back down his defender, he can't turn and face up his defender and hit short to midrange jumpers, he struggles to make shots more than five feet from the basket. In contrast, Ewing and Robinson had offensive games that were light years ahead of Chandler (and Dwight Howard for that matter).

For all Chandler's athleticism, his physical gifts don't transfer to his offensive game. In addition, although Chandler won "NBA Defensive Player of the Year," he is not really a great one-on-one defender. Chandler's strength is in help defense. Both Ewing and Robinson were better one-on-one defenders than presently is Chandler -- and Chandler plays in an era where there is a dearth of even serviceable centers. The last center to win "Defensive Player of the Year" and was actually a great one-on-one defender was Ben Wallace -- in his prime. Ben Wallace used his strength, along with his athleticism, to defend his opponents. Chandler's defensive game is one of finesse. It is based on agility not strength. Ewing's and Robinson's approach to defense was much closer to Wallace, in their reliance on strength and athleticism.

When it is said that Chandler is too powerful and too quick for Ewing and Robinson, what is that based on? Both Robinson and Ewing were more powerfully built than Chandler. Both had huge upper bodies. Robinson's upper body was probably larger than Chandler's. Robinson definitely had a muscular physique that was much more defined than Chandler's. Ewing's upper body was muscular and larger than is Chandler's. Both, played with more power than Chandler possesses.

It is generally true that the athletes of today are generally larger and have better nutritional and work out regiments than 1992. Yet, there are a number of things to consider. Take those players from the past, whom had relatively other-worldly careers when compared to players of their era AND players of today. Games of most of the dominant super-stars of past eras would transfer to the present. Players like Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, John Havlicek Abdul-Jabbar, Elvin Hayes, Jerry West, Rick Barry, Oscar Roberson and yes David Robinson and Patrick Ewing (as well as Olujuwon, Bird, Magic, Malone, Barkley, and others) would excel, if not dominate in 2012. What defined these players as superstars was that even in a league of freakishly gifted basketball players, these superstars' skill-sets were far advanced than their peers. Having such advanced games, their skill-sets would easily transfer to today's games and stand out among today's players.

Another consideration is the way the games have changed. Since the 1970s, NBA has instituted numerous rule changes to open up the offense. Post players used to literally get mugged; hard fouls were par for the course. Now these types of fouls are considered flagrant fouls. In today's NBA, there is no hand checking. There are no charging fouls called under the basket. Rules changes have made it much harder to guard players.

[Boz]

Jul 23, 2012 20:45:08 GMT -5 hoyarooter said:

Anyone who thinks that Tyson Chandler, who can't hit a shot outside three feet, would dominate Ewing and Robinson is smoking something.

That's OK. So are most of the players...on both squads.

;D

[hoyainspirit]

The quickness argument is the one that gets me. I saw Ewing play in college, almost every game, either live or on tv. I thought one of his greatest strengths was how quick he was for such a big man, especially around the goal. I actually used to marvel at how quick he was. Until his knees became an issue in the pros, I thought he was as quick or quicker than practically every big man in the league. Tyson is nice. I thought the Hornets made a mistake, essentially swapping him for Okafor. I like Tyson. Never did it enter my mind, however, that Chandler was in the same class as Ewing, in practically any aspect of the game, especially quickness, unless one is judging Ewing in the latter part of his career.

[rosslynhoya]

Back to the present day Games, will the 2012 men's team be doomed by the very personnel issue that prompted this thread in the first place?

www.washingtonpost.com/sports/us-mens-olympic-basketball-team-is-unbeaten-but-says-its-not-unbeatable/2012/07/25/gJQAaLkv8W_story.html

The biggest question — maybe the only one — facing the Americans since they assembled their team was how they would overcome their size problem. Spain had NBA big men Pau Gasol and Serge Ibaka on their front line Tuesday, an advantage that seemed even bigger when starting center Tyson Chandler quickly went to the bench with two fouls.

Carmelo Anthony came in and played on the front line with James and Kevin Durant. That made the Americans vulnerable on defense but unguardable on offense, forcing someone who would rarely find himself on the perimeter suddenly having to check one of the NBA’s top scorers out there.

“Their athleticism and quickness makes up for the lack of size. Interior players are not used to guarding players 20 feet away from the basket, so it’s sort of a double-edged sword,” Gasol said. “You have to try to punish them at one end, then adjust at the other end. And they’re loaded, so you have to be alert at all times.”

Hmm, none of these teams could possibly figure this out by the end of the Games could they? No one was sandbagging during the friendlies to give the U.S. a false sense of confidence.

[Filo]

Hmmm. Seems like Greg Monroe would really help that team. Too bad the powers that be didn't see that.

[Deleted]

Well, here I am for some more laughable, inane comments.
Consider this
Golf-courses have been made much more difficult and tees have been moved back
Swimming-times continue to decrease and are much faster than 20 years ago
Track and field-running and field events are much better than 20 years ago
Baseball-if you threw a baseball 93 miles per hour in 1992, you were a flame thrower and today they throw 100 mph. Not only that, if you throw it down the center of the plate, today's hitter will hit it in the upper deck.
Football-I looked up the Washington Redskins who won the1992 superbowl with Mark Rypien as the quarterback. they were known for the offensive line called the Hogs. Joe Jacoby and Russ Grim were all pros on that line weighing 260 and 272 lb. Today's offensive linemen are 40 pounds more and just as fast if not faster.
Oh-and I am sure that US open 1992 Champ Stephan Edberg would have beaten Federer-yeah right!!

You guys just have a romanticized view of the dream team.

[Boz]

None of those sports are basketball.

Just sayin'.

;D


On a more serious note, the golf and tennis examples are not really appropriate. Those games have changed primarily because of equipment.

Yes, if you gave a 30-year old Jack Nicklaus today's clubs, he could probably hit it as far as anyone and kick most of today's players' asses.

And if Stefan Edberg was using Roger Federer's racquets, he could compete evenly with him.

As for baseball, umm, if you throw the ball down the middle of the plate in any era, it's going into the upper deck.

[kchoya]

Jul 26, 2012 11:57:25 GMT -5 @jerrylh said:

Well, here I am for some more laughable, inane comments.
Consider this
Golf-courses have been made much more difficult and tees have been moved back
Swimming-times continue to decrease and are much faster than 20 years ago
Track and field-running and field events are much better than 20 years ago
Baseball-if you threw a baseball 93 miles per hour in 1992, you were a flame thrower and today they throw 100 mph. Not only that, if you throw it down the center of the plate, today's hitter will hit it in the upper deck.
Football-I looked up the Washington Redskins who won the1992 superbowl with Mark Rypien as the quarterback. they were known for the offensive line called the Hogs. Joe Jacoby and Russ Grim were all pros on that line weighing 260 and 272 lb. Today's offensive linemen are 40 pounds more and just as fast if not faster.
Oh-and I am sure that US open 1992 Champ Stephan Edberg would have beaten Federer-yeah right!!

You guys just have a romanticized view of the dream team.

Golf - because equipment has nothing to do with it. Tom Watson says he drives the ball longer now, at 62, than he did 20-30 years ago.

Swimming - equipment has played a big part.

Tennis - yes, let's diminish the guy with the most majors who, ironically, doesn't really base his game on athelticism and a 150mph serve.

Track - there are plenty of events with records that are 20 years old, or records that have stood for 10, 15 or more years at a time.

Football - if the Hogs played today, they'd all weigh 300+ and play just as well.

Are you part of LeBron's entourage or something?

[Deleted]

Golf has something to do with it, but not much. The courses are much more difficult in addition to the added length.
Swimming-what equipment. The special swim suits are outlawed and the records are still fallling. the times aren't even close. Is there any other equipment that a male swimmer may have to propel himself forward???
Track-what records are 20 years old. I may be forgetting one or two, but I can't think of any that are 20 years old. However, that isn't even the point. the average olympian of today is faster and stronger than his or her counterpart from 1992
Football-you said "if the Hogs played today, they'd all weigh 300+ and play just as well"
I can't believe you just said that. I have read your posts before, and I know you are smarter than to make an argument like that. That fact is that they did play at that weight (remember we are comparing 1992 to 2012), and if they went up against the linemen of today as they were then, they would get creamed.

As far as Ewing and Robinson are concerned, Chandler is quick and would give them fits (he wasn't named first team all defense for nothing). He doesn't have to score. BTW-if you didn't notice, the 2012 Olympic team did best against Spain when LeBron played center. Basketball has changed. The widespread use of the pick and roll requires that all player be able to guard anyone on the court unless you play a zone. The days of the classic center of the 1992 generation are practically gone. I would also argue that the 2012 team is an infinitely better defensive team than the dream team. Yes Pippen and Jordan were excellent defenders, but the 2012 starting 5 have 4 all pro defenders ahnd have Iguadala coming off the bench.

[bmartin]

The 2012 team is not that big, so the argument that guys are bigger today is irrelevant to this discussion. They are playing like Duke, relying on jumpers and begging for foul calls when they drive. They do not feed the post, so your hero Tyson Chandler may not get to show how awesome he is. Maybe the rest of the teams will be Wake Forest, maybe not.

[bmartin]

Also, Spain dominated the US inside:
US: Tyson Chandler 2 points; Kevin Love 2 points.
Espana: Pau Gasol 19 points; Serge Ibaka 16 points.

The US won because they were 13/23 from three and because Spain's guards were terrible.

[kchoya]

Jul 26, 2012 13:20:27 GMT -5 @jerrylh said:

Golf has something to do with it, but not much. The courses are much more difficult in addition to the added length.
Swimming-what equipment. The special swim suits are outlawed and the records are still fallling. the times aren't even close. Is there any other equipment that a male swimmer may have to propel himself forward???
Track-what records are 20 years old. I may be forgetting one or two, but I can't think of any that are 20 years old. However, that isn't even the point. the average olympian of today is faster and stronger than his or her counterpart from 1992
Football-you said "if the Hogs played today, they'd all weigh 300+ and play just as well"
I can't believe you just said that. I have read your posts before, and I know you are smarter than to make an argument like that. That fact is that they did play at that weight (remember we are comparing 1992 to 2012), and if they went up against the linemen of today as they were then, they would get creamed.

As far as Ewing and Robinson are concerned, Chandler is quick and would give them fits (he wasn't named first team all defense for nothing). He doesn't have to score. BTW-if you didn't notice, the 2012 Olympic team did best against Spain when LeBron played center. Basketball has changed. The widespread use of the pick and roll requires that all player be able to guard anyone on the court unless you play a zone. The days of the classic center of the 1992 generation are practically gone. I would also argue that the 2012 team is an infinitely better defensive team than the dream team. Yes Pippen and Jordan were excellent defenders, but the 2012 starting 5 have 4 all pro defenders ahnd have Iguadala coming off the bench.

I know we're not supposed to call each other names on here, but seriously, you are an actual moron if you truly think Chandler would "give fits" to Ewing and Robinson (plus Malone and Barkley). I'm not even going to dignify your other claims. It's pointless.

[H2Oya 05]

Jul 26, 2012 13:20:27 GMT -5 @jerrylh said:

Golf has something to do with it, but not much. The courses are much more difficult in addition to the added length.
Swimming-what equipment. The special swim suits are outlawed and the records are still fallling. the times aren't even close. Is there any other equipment that a male swimmer may have to propel himself forward???
Track-what records are 20 years old. I may be forgetting one or two, but I can't think of any that are 20 years old. However, that isn't even the point. the average olympian of today is faster and stronger than his or her counterpart from 1992
Football-you said "if the Hogs played today, they'd all weigh 300+ and play just as well"
I can't believe you just said that. I have read your posts before, and I know you are smarter than to make an argument like that. That fact is that they did play at that weight (remember we are comparing 1992 to 2012), and if they went up against the linemen of today as they were then, they would get creamed.

As far as Ewing and Robinson are concerned, Chandler is quick and would give them fits (he wasn't named first team all defense for nothing). He doesn't have to score. BTW-if you didn't notice, the 2012 Olympic team did best against Spain when LeBron played center. Basketball has changed. The widespread use of the pick and roll requires that all player be able to guard anyone on the court unless you play a zone. The days of the classic center of the 1992 generation are practically gone. I would also argue that the 2012 team is an infinitely better defensive team than the dream team. Yes Pippen and Jordan were excellent defenders, but the 2012 starting 5 have 4 all pro defenders ahnd have Iguadala coming off the bench.

With swimming, you aren't totally accurate. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_swimming If you look at the records, very few have been set since they banned the new suits in January of 2010. And if you look at the records that got broken shortly before the new suits were banned, a handful were very old records. Additionally, swimming rules have changed over the years generally to make the sport faster. For example, you can now do a dolphin kick off your walls in breaststroke, or they now have track like foot holds on the blocks. As to the suit argument. Tom Jager went a 21.81 in 1990 (paper suits); Popov went a 21.64 in 2000 (first generation fast skin); since 2008, his record has been broken most recently by Cielo in 2009 (20.91) in a full body fast suit. I'd say suit tech is the difference, every record faster than 21.64 was set in the last year and a half of the fast suit regime. 21.59 won trials this year and was in the new fastest generation material that one could make in a jammer. With the new suits, swimmers from 20 years ago would be able to compete.

Also, how do you account for Dara Torres? Would you argue that Dara Torres who was able to get third in the Olympic trials at age 46 is a better athlete than Dara Torres who qualified for the Olympics from 1984?

Here is an interesting world record chart, upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/WRP50100200.png Keep in mind, in 2000 the fastskin was invented, then between 2004 and 2009 suits changed basically every few months and became full body technical suits.