GOT, Season 2

[SFHoya99]

May 29, 2012 11:50:09 GMT -5 Boz said:

I'm not bitter when I'm drunk. Only when I'm sober.

Ha. I was trolling for something funny.

Since people here were worried -- both Reeds are in next season, as is the Blackfish & Edmure, Mance & Tormund, Daario, Beric & Thoros and the Queen of Thorns.

I honestly thought many of these would be combined or cut, so awesome.

EW Linky

[jgalt]

May 29, 2012 13:48:40 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

May 29, 2012 11:50:09 GMT -5 Boz said:

I'm not bitter when I'm drunk. Only when I'm sober.

Ha. I was trolling for something funny.

Since people here were worried -- both Reeds are in next season, as is the Blackfish & Edmure, Mance & Tormund, Daario, Beric & Thoros and the Queen of Thorns.

I honestly thought many of these would be combined or cut, so awesome.

EW Linky

I am happy to hear this

[JB5]

May 29, 2012 13:48:40 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Since people here were worried -- both Reeds are in next season, as is the Blackfish & Edmure, Mance & Tormund, Daario, Beric & Thoros and the Queen of Thorns.

I honestly thought many of these would be combined or cut, so awesome.

EW Linky

No Red Viper? Maybe for Season 4.

[SFHoya99]

There's no way Oberyn is cut, so yes, I expect Season 4.

[glow=red,2,300]MASSIVE SPOILER FOR BOOK 3![/glow]

I think there's a decent chance a well known actor (relatively speaking) takes that role. It's a lot of fun, it's not a lot of work -- maybe six or seven scenes max (though the fight choreography could take time). And it's got a defined end. If they are ever going to get another Sean Bean - level type of guy, this is the role. Mance is similarly fun, but they'll want a commitment for season six or whatever at this point. Quentyn Martell might be a similar spot, but he's young and that role ain't all that fun.

[derhoya]

Dragon fire > warlock magic ... who knew? That entire 5-10 min period contained some interesting foreshadowing (honestly, like every damn scene it seems). I just may have to read these books now.

[SFHoya99]

Jun 4, 2012 10:25:52 GMT -5 derhoya said:

Dragon fire > warlock magic ... who knew? That entire 5-10 min period contained some interesting foreshadowing (honestly, like every damn scene it seems). I just may have to read these books now.

The books are excellent.

Despite the book-reader teeth grinding going on on the interwebs, the only thing I struggled a bit with this episode was the special effects at the end. The dragonfire and the Walkers were meh. Which is fine, but it was the climax.

The rest of it I really enjoyed.

[jgalt]

Jun 4, 2012 11:03:35 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Jun 4, 2012 10:25:52 GMT -5 derhoya said:

Dragon fire > warlock magic ... who knew? That entire 5-10 min period contained some interesting foreshadowing (honestly, like every damn scene it seems). I just may have to read these books now.

The books are excellent.

Despite the book-reader teeth grinding going on on the interwebs, the only thing I struggled a bit with this episode was the special effects at the end. The dragonfire and the Walkers were meh. Which is fine, but it was the climax.

The rest of it I really enjoyed.

I say definitely read the books. Only if to satisfy your cravings until next season. But be prepared for differences that you may or may not like.

I am intrigued/worried about some changes they made and too see where they go with it.

I thought the episode was pretty good though. I didnt like the siege of Winterfell at all, it was very confusing, even more so than in the book.

[thebin]

Who burned winterfell? I presumed the 500 northern allies laying siege allowed the 20 sans theon safe passage provided they handed Theon over, but surely not after they first sacked winterfell? The northern allies didn't burn it down, did they? So confused on that part....

[rosslynhoya]

Jun 5, 2012 21:15:12 GMT -5 thebin said:

Who burned winterfell? I presumed the 500 northern allies laying siege allowed the 20 sans theon safe passage provided they handed Theon over, but surely not after they first sacked winterfell? The northern allies didn't burn it down, did they? So confused on that part....

Thanks for offering up that confusion! As a reader, it was a point that I didn't think they hit hard enough but apparently it was enough (Had the producers budget enough, the scene should've been a warg scene seen through the eyes of wolf-Bran and wolf-Rickon whilst roaming through the rubble).

I'm also a bit confused by the House of Undying treatment (no, not all the really freaky scenes that should have happened) but simply by the absence of the Three Treasons prophecy, etc. Is this GRRM's way of saying that those lines are not as invested with meaning as most readers have presumed?

Minor quibble- I was floored by Robb Stark being wed in the Light as opposed to some kind of Old Gods ceremony. It seemed completely out of character, or at least as much as the whole Talisa subplot allows anything to be out of character for him. In most cases dealing with the religious/historical aspects of the world, I really think it's a touch sad how much backstory/context/depth ends up lost from the HBO series.

All in all, I think it was a fine conclusion to A Clash of Kings and am patiently looking forward to Season 3 in due time.

[thebin]

Wait- so who burned Winterfell in the books? Theon's 20 or the Northern 500?

Also, can you explain a bit more about the Stark wedding as it relates to the Stark religion. I presume the Starks are more old Gods? What made the ceremony "in the Light?" Perhaps that's Talisa's religion? Was that wedding in secret, ie, nobody knows they are married? Doesn't make for an especially proper Queen in the North.

Also, without massively spoiling it for this non-reader...are the white walkers and wildlings totally unaffiliated? Neither mortal enemies nor allies?

[Boz]

Jun 6, 2012 10:17:54 GMT -5 thebin said:

Wait- so who burned Winterfell in the books? Theon's 20 or the Northern 500?

Also, can you explain a bit more about the Stark wedding as it relates to the Stark religion. I presume the Starks are more old Gods? What made the ceremony "in the Light?" Perhaps that's Talisa's religion? Was that wedding in secret, ie, nobody knows they are married? Doesn't make for an especially proper Queen in the North.

Also, without massively spoiling it for this non-reader...are the white walkers and wildlings totally unaffiliated? Neither mortal enemies nor allies?

Question 1: Neither, sort of. There were a lot more machinations in the books, with Theon trying to negotiate with a contingent of the Northerners (led by Bastard Bolton), who first turned on the rest of the Northerners, then turned on Theon and burned Winterfell when they got in.

Question 2: Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure Robb's wedding was never in the books. He went off to the Crag and when he got back, he was married. But yes, the Starks do not worship the 7 or the Lord of Light. They worship the old gods.

Question 3: The wildlings and Others are not affiliated, and certainly not allies. I think the wildlings regognize them as a threat to everyone, including themselves. They have some plans along these lines, but that would be spoiling things.

Actually, anyone can correct me if I am wrong on any of these, not just #2.

[SFHoya99]

Jun 6, 2012 10:36:22 GMT -5 Boz said:

Question 1: Neither, sort of. There were a lot more machinations in the books, with Theon trying to negotiate with a contingent of the Northerners (led by Bastard Bolton), who first turned on the rest of the Northerners, then turned on Theon and burned Winterfell when they got in.

SPOILER!

I think the book's going to play out, we won't just see it. In the books, Theon takes into his confidence a smelly stablehand named Reek while in possession of Winterfell. Reek is Ramsay Bolton in disguise. He's the one who brings up the idea of killing the Miller's sons in place of Rickon and Bran.

After Asha/Yara abandons him, Reek sneaks out to find allies for Theon. The Northerners return from Theon's faint (led by Rodrik Cassel -- who came back basically alone -- he's the one Theon beheaded) but are taken from behind by Ramsay (Bolton's bastard) leading Bolton men (so Rodrik thinks they are friends).

Theon thinks he is saved, unless Ramsay kills all the Ironborn and burns down Winterfell. SPOILER FOR ALL THE BOOKS!!! The book leaves it with Theon presumed dead. Ramsay has really taken him to the Dreadfort to torture him mercilessly.

Given Ramsay is cast next year, we're likely to see some of what Theon flashes back to in Dance. Lady Hornwood, maybe, Kyra, torture, general badness.

Question 2: Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure Robb's wedding was never in the books. He went off to the Crag and when he got back, he was married. But yes, the Starks do not worship the 7 or the Lord of Light. They worship the old gods.

It's off screen. He gets injured, Jeyne (a minor Lannister Bannermen's daughter and the young lady of the castle he took) nurses him back to health and falls into his bed. His argument to Catelyn is that he had to marry her for honor, but that she's a really wonderful person. We never see Robb's POV or the wedding.

As for the Starks, the family historically worships the Old Gods. Catelyn is a southerner, though and Ned had a Sept built for her in Winterfell. In the books, the children seem to be raised in both religions -- Sansa definitely tends to the Southern Gods as you'd expects, Jon (who has no affiliation to Catelyn) chooses the Northern when he says his oath, etc.

I believe they are actually having a Southern Ceremony in front of a Weirwood Tree in the show -- so dual religion. The Old Gods don't have priests and the only ceremony ever shown in the book is blood sacrifice, which is pretty much out of use, so I don't even know if there is a marriage ceremony.

So Robb's alright there. Lady Talisa, if actually Volantene, would likely worship neither, but I also doubt there is a priest of whatever religion she might claim in the middle of the Riverlands.

Question 3: The wildlings and Others are not affiliated, and certainly not allies. I think the wildlings regognize them as a threat to everyone, including themselves. They have some plans along these lines, but that would be spoiling things.

Actually, anyone can correct me if I am wrong on any of these, not just #2.

The Wildlings are running south because the Others are coming. They are definitely not allies, just dual threats in some ways. The conversations with Ygritte become more important -- historically the Seven Kingdoms view the Wildlings as an enemy and the White Walkers as myth; sometimes you are fighting the last war.

[thebin]

Wait- Bolton is the guy who is sort of Robb's right hand general? His son attacked Stark's men? (Rodrick?) Is Bolton duplicitous or did the son act on his own?

[jgalt]

The parts in the book about the siege of Winterfell are a bit confusing. Basically The Bastard of Bolton lays siege to the castle along with Rodrik. So the reader thinks there is some hope for the Starks to retake Winterfell. Well Bolton betays the Starks more or less; partly because he is crazy and also because the Boltons and other Stark Bannermen are becoming a bit frustrated with Jon. The book makes these politics more clear. The important thing is that this is the beginning of the Boltons and other Bannermen betraying the starks.

In the book we see some of this. But we dont see what happens to Bran until after the fall of Winterfell. Bran, Hodor, Osha, and Rickon all attempt to escape we are told, but we dont see them again until the emerge from the tombs. They are not in contact with the Maester, as far as we know. There are also two other characters with them by this time in the book who wont be introduced until next season.

[thebin]

"the Boltons and other Stark Bannermen are becoming a bit frustrated with Jon." Snow? Or did you mean Robb? I'm confused...non reader.

[Boz]

Jun 6, 2012 11:54:40 GMT -5 thebin said:

"the Boltons and other Stark Bannermen are becoming a bit frustrated with Jon." Snow? Or did you mean Robb? I'm confused...non reader.

Pretty sure he meant Robb there.


There's a whole 'nother group of people who get frustrated with Jon. ;D

[JB5]

After watching, I initially thought that the producers wanted us to believe that the Ironmen lit Winterfell up as they left, but the door is certainly open for the Dreadfort men to have done so. Or some combination.

I also thought the Robb-Talisa wedding was being done by a Septon in front of a tree so as to cover both of the major religions of Robb's Kingdom -- Westeros political correctness.

The best moment of the finale was the little smile on Sansa's face at the thought of not marrying Joffrey.

The HOTU was anti-climatic, but I've never been much of a fan of Dany. I guess those prophecies aren't all that important after all.

[thebin]

It seems every reader found the HOTU scene disappointing while non-readers did not. It must have had many more moving parts in the books?

Totally agree that the winterfell destruction was prob left ambiguous to make non-readers a bit confused about theon's fate, etc.

[SFHoya99]

Jun 6, 2012 11:48:42 GMT -5 jgalt said:

The parts in the book about the siege of Winterfell are a bit confusing. Basically The Bastard of Bolton lays siege to the castle along with Rodrik. So the reader thinks there is some hope for the Starks to retake Winterfell. Well Bolton betays the Starks more or less; partly because he is crazy and also because the Boltons and other Stark Bannermen are becoming a bit frustrated with Jon. The book makes these politics more clear. The important thing is that this is the beginning of the Boltons and other Bannermen betraying the starks.

In the book we see some of this. But we dont see what happens to Bran until after the fall of Winterfell. Bran, Hodor, Osha, and Rickon all attempt to escape we are told, but we dont see them again until the emerge from the tombs. They are not in contact with the Maester, as far as we know. There are also two other characters with them by this time in the book who wont be introduced until next season.

Actually, they do meet Luwin after the sack, and he is dying. Luwin insists that Osha split up Rickon and Bran. The Reeds (next season) take Bran and Rickon and Osha head off in another direction.

[SFHoya99]

Jun 6, 2012 12:55:28 GMT -5 thebin said:

It seems every reader found the HOTU scene disappointing while non-readers did not. It must have had many more moving parts in the books?

Totally agree that the winterfell destruction was prob left ambiguous to make non-readers a bit confused about theon's fate, etc.

If you're never going to read it, read ahead. If you are, I wouldn't spoil myself. BUT SPOILERS ONLY THROUGH CLASH OF KINGS.

The House of the Undying contains a whole lot of images of the past and future and additional spoken prophecy.

It's important to the book as both backstory and prophecy are more developed.

Some of it is personal to Dany -- prophecy about her. Betrayals she will suffer, all sorts of stuff.

Some of it is relevant to the greater prophecy of the series: the prophecy of a Prince that was Promised, a savior character that will presumably save the human race. It's closely paralleled/the same person as Azor Ahai, which Melisandre thinks is personified in Stannis.

Who this character is (born amidst salt and smoke) is one of the main mysteries of the book series if you're into the fantasy-side. I personally don't know how serious Martin takes his prophecies -- many have come true and some have not. I think the PtwP and Azor Ahai will end up being many people, as quite a few main characters could be said to fulfill the prophecy conditions.

The key scene that 90% of book readers wanted to see but did not is a flashback to Dany's brother Rhaegar (who King Robert killed at the Trident right before Jaime killed his father, the Mad King Aerys) cradling a new born son and saying the line: "He is the Prince that was Promised, and his is the Song of Ice and Fire."

So, yeah, the more fantasy minded folk kind of love the scene where they say the name of the book.