GOT, Season 2

[CTHoya08]

May 8, 2012 12:02:49 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

May 7, 2012 22:03:13 GMT -5 CTHoya08 said:

How has Arya not had Tywin whacked? The obvious reason is that she doesn't have that opportunity in the book. But it seems like an obvious decision to make, especially knowing (as she must) that Robb holds Jaime captive. I can understand not using her first one on him, but once she saw how the Tickler was dispatched without anyone getting caught, why not try to win the war?

She does have that opportunity in the book. She chooses Chiswyck after hearing him brag about gang raping people. Then she chooses Weese -- she is the serving girl for Weese and he had hit her.

But Tywin is at Harrenhal at this time. She could have killed him. After he leaves, she laments that she used her kills superficially and stupidly. She is an eight year old girl, and went after people who were much more viscerally problematic, not strategically important.

So she decides to think carefully about the last one...

It's amazing how much I've forgotten since reading the book in August.

[SFHoya99]

I had help, CT. I remembered they were different people than in the show, and remembered Weese but I had completely forgotten Chiswyck completely. The internet was helpful.

[SFHoya99]

I know I'm a total fanboy here, but last night's episode was incredible.

• The CGI shot opening the Arya/Tywin scene was well placed. Seeing Harrenhal in all its destruction was both well done and relevant to the ensuing conversation.
  
  
• I love all the little touches to this episode. It addressed a lot of the small nitpicks people had earlier like "Doesn't Tywin notice she doesn't talk like a commoner?" Yes, he did. He just wasn't telling. This is Tywin Lannister, people!
  
  
• Jeyne, er, Talisa, is afraid to go to the Crag. Wonder why that is.
  
  
• This was the Lannister episode, no? I thought maybe I was getting tired or Tywin and Arya talking in a room last week, but no, coming back to this week, which was mostly just exposition (even if talking about Dragons is always fun) and a bit o tension over whether Arya will take out Tywin or get taken out. But we get another small gem here: Tywin is indulging Arya because she reminds him of Cersei. How true that must be and how mad Arya must be at that!
  
  
• Cersei also had two scenes and both were great. The scene with Sansa was reminiscent of last year's discussion with Robert -- and is a great example of obstensibly being about Sansa when it's Cersei talking about herself. Then Lena Headey follows it up with the great scene with Tyrion where he almost hugs her in comfort, but, you know, it's Cersei. A lot of people had problems with Lena's eyebrow-ice-queen act last year. Those same people have problems with Littlefinger's obvious act. They are two sides of the same coin -- sometimes the characters are acting and you have to let the characters breathe.
  
  
• Lastly, the two scenes with Jaime were great. Missing the last five episodes, we get the scene that Nikolaj Coster Waldau is most proud of in his career. It's to his credit that I'm not sure if it is the scene with Alton Lannister or Catelyn. Both were awesome acted and written, with lines cribbed from different parts of the books. I love Jaime's wiShut uplness turned viciousness in the first scene, but the "Too Many Vows" speech in the second -- and Michelle Fairley's reaction -- is one of the keystones of the entire series thematically. Excellent of them to nail it.
  
  
• Ygritte and Jon were fun, if unspectacular to me. I enjoy the way they are playing the Wildling culture -- frankly something in many ways much more similar to modern culture, at least in terms of freedom. I feel like while many book readers may be unsatisfied with the immediate Jon future, the overall arc is in good hands. Jon is questioning not only his vows, but the entire Southron culture.
  
  
• I liked the bit of action that Qarth gave us -- Jorah showing up, etc. Still, aside from the Dany-Jorah dynamic, it still plods a bit, like the book. At least we're heading to the House of the Undying.
  
  
• Where the heck is my female nudity?!?! What do I pay HBO for? I'm joking, but I still find it weird the outrage over nudity and the subsequent "it's better without nudity" but it really has to go extremely far on the violence for anyone to mention it (e.g. a scepter...).
  
  
• There were spoilers leaked to the internet before this aired and the book purists went nuts. I think even most of them can look now and see that the literal transcription of changes sounded much worse than how it played. For example, if you can't see how Jaime Lannister -- who only values himself as a sword and only wants to be near Cersei -- would kill random sixteenth cousin to get free, I don't know what to tell you. You're not really giving the show a fair shake. (I will agree that the scene could have been shot better to tie Alton's death in with Karstark showing up... weird delay).
  
  

[SFHoya99]

Last point, since I completely forgot the Winterfell plotline -- how well is this show at integrating funny in with the rest? Jaime, Osha with Hodor, Tywin and Arya, Tyrion, Ygritte -- they all have had moments of humor right in the middle of the tension. I think that's a lot of what's missing in Qarth. There's no funny there. Everything is very serious.

[thebin]

May 14, 2012 10:37:42 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Last point, since I completely forgot the Winterfell plotline -- how well is this show at integrating funny in with the rest? Jaime, Osha with Hodor, Tywin and Arya, Tyrion, Ygritte -- they all have had moments of humor right in the middle of the tension. I think that's a lot of what's missing in Qarth. There's no funny there. Everything is very serious.

I think that may be part of the reason I'm getting a little sick of Daenerys' character full stop. She is starting to seem awfully entitled on the strength of no accomplishment outside of being born fireproof. Now that she's acting like her brother a bit to Jorah I'm a bit fed up with her. But I have been warned that this book is not really about her at all. The entire Dany/Dothraki plot has been my least favorite of them all since the first season. I may be one of the few who loves this show inspite of the dragons rather than because of them in any way.

[Boz]

What is completely missing from Dany's character, IMO, is her concern for her people.

This comes across as very genuine in the books, but it is almost entirely absent here. Even at the gates, when she was saying they would die if they were not allowed in, you kind of got the feeling she was concerned mostly for herself (and her dragons).

The Dani of the books is far more selfless. Yes, she still wants her birthright, it is not her primary concern, most of the time. And her actions back that up.

I agree. She is acting too much like her brother in the show. Granted, some of us have a fuller picture of her character, but I don't remember her ever being this petulant.


Also, why did it say "only two episodes left" last night? Aren't there three??

Or was it one of those "only two episodes left until the season finale" gimmicks?

[thebin]

Is it possible they made the finale or the second to last one a double-episode and thus only two episodes left even though 3 hours spread over 3 Sundays?

[SFHoya99]

May 14, 2012 12:37:12 GMT -5 Boz said:

What is completely missing from Dany's character, IMO, is her concern for her people.

This comes across as very genuine in the books, but it is almost entirely absent here. Even at the gates, when she was saying they would die if they were not allowed in, you kind of got the feeling she was concerned mostly for herself (and her dragons).

The Dani of the books is far more selfless. Yes, she still wants her birthright, it is not her primary concern, most of the time. And her actions back that up.

I agree. She is acting too much like her brother in the show. Granted, some of us have a fuller picture of her character, but I don't remember her ever being this petulant.


Also, why did it say "only two episodes left" last night? Aren't there three??

Or was it one of those "only two episodes left until the season finale" gimmicks?

The two episode thing was an error -- at least I think it was because it was not in the west coast feed.


BOOK SPOILERS:

As for Dany, she was always a bit of a whiner. And she always acted entitled. I think you are right that it was somewhat balanced by her concern for her people, and that has generally been lacking in the series (except for parts of season one).

I do think they are trying to create a less subtle arc for her. In the books, she is concerned for others, but her overall actions often don't reflect that. Her main goal is getting her birthright and ruling -- like Jon or Stannis or any of the potential kings, she has not real concern about what she will do as Queen.

Later on, she begins to actually marry actions to her compassion -- namely staying in Mereen and helping to rule rather than cutting a swatch to Westeros.

I think part of the Irri commentary on her losing her Dothraki-ness was part of this. Dany cares about Irri, but she doesn't think about Irri or the other Dothraki. Asking them to fight for her birthright, to die for her, with the only upside living a life in a culture they do not want -- this is not truly caring for someone. It's caring without thought.

It's a very subtle distinction in the books -- so much so that from reading a lot of people's commentary (not yours), I think people miss it. Dany goes from weak to strong, from caring viscerally but not intelligently to really trying to act selflessly, and now I think the next step for her in the books is to execute -- her attempts to occupy Mereen were full of classical errors.

[Boz]

According to wikipedia, it's three episodes over the next three weeks. They must've meant two episodes until the season finale. Lots of shows do that now. I think it's lame, but it's not worth making a fuss about.

I am very curious about which events from Book Three will make it into these last three episodes.

Very, VERY curious indeed!!

(sorry for non-readers that I keep writing teaser posts like that, but I really am trying not to give stuff away; and yet it is hard to contain sometimes).

[Boz]

SF, I think your analysis is a lot better than mine.

This has tripped me up often on the show, doing a little revisionist history in my head based on knowledge of things the characters will do later.

I haven't gone back and looked through Book 2, but I'm guessing that you're right, and maybe she was a little more selfish and entitled at first, before she grew up and became more of how I described her.

I still think the show isn't doing right by her, but it's probably not quite as egregious as I first noted.

[SFHoya99]

May 14, 2012 13:02:14 GMT -5 Boz said:

SF, I think your analysis is a lot better than mine.

This has tripped me up often on the show, doing a little revisionist history in my head based on knowledge of things the characters will do later.

I haven't gone back and looked through Book 2, but I'm guessing that you're right, and maybe she was a little more selfish and entitled at first, before she grew up and became more of how I described her.

I still think the show isn't doing right by her, but it's probably not quite as egregious as I first noted.

I think people are always going to have slightly different interpretations.

It's also a consequence of the POV structure. We never see Dany from anyone else's perspective until very late. I think I tend not to trust the POV of someone describing themselves as much as I trust their actions.

Dany's POV doesn't really notice the Dothraki are blindly following her around the world... because she doesn't notice it. It's not explicit in the book because Dany's not the type to notice she's doing something hurtful and not stop -- but she is pretty self-centered to my mind.

She changes significantly, of course. Then she's just incapable of executing her vision. More experienced people than her have failed to occupy enemy territory, though.

[rosslynhoya]

A rather "bleh" episode this week: the plots were spread too thinly, probably to give everyone a splash of story before the big episode on Sunday, and what scenes did exist lacked the sizzle of the novel's dialogue.

• Cat Stark. Again, wth? I'll repeat my recurring angst about the writers completely destroying this character. One, in the book, she's motivated out of concern for the deaths of Bran and Rickon, and two, she's already saved Jaime from being murdered once by Karstark and probably won't be able to do it the next time the mood seizes him, meaning she'll lose her daughters to Cersei's vengeance. So, as a result of plausible motivation, the Cat of the novel decides to carry out a meaningful action knowing full well the consequences. How much more interesting is that, instead of a woman simply in hysterics?
  
  
• Arya and Jaqen. This just seemed to lack the lively back and forth, the "unsay that name" banter that really made this scene in the novel come alive. There also appear to be some unresolved elements, like, Jaqen's backstory, the Many-Faced God, two words in Old Valyrian, and an old iron coin? Is there room for Jaqen's reappearance yet this season? I think something is also lost storywise by the kids' simply walking out of Harrenhal, rather than Arya having to use the pointy end for the first time since King's Landing. Again, I'm just lost at the idea of decisive characters "floating" more or less when their moral calculus and choosing to seize control of their destiny are important points in liking them as characters. On the bright side, they did inject a plausible reason for why Arya doesn't use Jaqen to whack Tywin (no control over the timing).
  
  
• Jon and Qhorin. It seems like there should have been more here here for the amount of time spent on this scene. See also Dany and Qarth.
  
  
• I rather liked the Asha and Theon scene, as well as the solid recap of the Stannis and Davos relationship. I'm not sure what the point was of Bronn's slaughtering of the "known" thieves, but perhaps it's a prelude to something interesting next week. At least Tyrion and Cersei managed to salvage one truly great line: "A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid."
  

I can't wait for the Blackwater.

[SFHoya99]

May 22, 2012 20:58:52 GMT -5 rosslynhoya said:

A rather "bleh" episode this week: the plots were spread too thinly, probably to give everyone a splash of story before the big episode on Sunday, and what scenes did exist lacked the sizzle of the novel's dialogue.

Agree. It's always better for me on rewatch, but it just missed some pop. This is probably just missed execution on some scenes.

• Cat Stark. Again, wth? I'll repeat my recurring angst about the writers completely destroying this character. One, in the book, she's motivated out of concern for the deaths of Bran and Rickon, and two, she's already saved Jaime from being murdered once by Karstark and probably won't be able to do it the next time the mood seizes him, meaning she'll lose her daughters to Cersei's vengeance. So, as a result of plausible motivation, the Cat of the novel decides to carry out a meaningful action knowing full well the consequences. How much more interesting is that, instead of a woman simply in hysterics?
  

I've seen this criticism a lot and I can't agree. In the book, she's more distraught -- her sons are dead (to her) and she wants her daughters back. It's not a great decision but understandable.

Here, her sons are merely captive, though in real danger (hostages often don't live), and Jaime is in more danger of getting killed that night. A dead Jaime likely means a retribution against one of her daughters at least, so this is not just an attempt to set them free but it must be done now in order to save their lives.

I really don't see any difference in the ownership of action or motivation here. At least not material.

[/li][li]Arya and Jaqen. This just seemed to lack the lively back and forth, the "unsay that name" banter that really made this scene in the novel come alive. There also appear to be some unresolved elements, like, Jaqen's backstory, the Many-Faced God, two words in Old Valyrian, and an old iron coin? Is there room for Jaqen's reappearance yet this season? I think something is also lost storywise by the kids' simply walking out of Harrenhal, rather than Arya having to use the pointy end for the first time since King's Landing. Again, I'm just lost at the idea of decisive characters "floating" more or less when their moral calculus and choosing to seize control of their destiny are important points in liking them as characters. On the bright side, they did inject a plausible reason for why Arya doesn't use Jaqen to whack Tywin (no control over the timing).[/quote]

I think we get the coin and the face-changing in Episode 10, since the actor has mentioned the latter and the Episode name is Valor Morghulis.

I'm with you on the verbal punch -- either it didn't translate or it didn't work but either way I was let down.

And I'm with you on the stabby stabby, though admittedly there's plenty of time for Arya to stabby stabby.

[/li][li]Jon and Qhorin. It seems like there should have been more here here for the amount of time spent on this scene. See also Dany and Qarth.[/quote]

I wish they had been whispering at night and a longer conversation. I'm still hoping we get "Is your blade sharp, Jon Snow?" in episode 10. And I'm really hoping Ghost is there.

I wish they had cut Dany's scene. Stop stalling. Fire and Blood, got it.

[/li][li]I rather liked the Asha and Theon scene, as well as the solid recap of the Stannis and Davos relationship. I'm not sure what the point was of Bronn's slaughtering of the "known" thieves, but perhaps it's a prelude to something interesting next week. At least Tyrion and Cersei managed to salvage one truly great line: "A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid."
[/li][/ul][/quote]

The Asha scene was great -- first time I've really liked the actress. The Stannis story was great as well -- "never liked cats, so ok."

I LOVED the Cersei and Tyrion scene -- just perfect and pretty much from the book (actually a ton of dialog this ep was from the book).

On the Bronn point, I think they are just demonstrating what was true in the book -- Tyrion was never wholly comfortable with how callous and amoral he is.

I can't wait for the Blackwater.

I hope its awesome. The budget is still nowhere near a real action movie, but the producers went and got extra cash for it, hired Neil Marshall, just did everything they seemingly could.

[jgalt]

May 8, 2012 14:21:58 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

The Reeds and Ramsay haven't been cast for this season. Ramsay was mentioned, and I expect him to be cast for season 3 (and to show up in this season in armor or with a mask or whatever). Actors are expensive and apparently reserving them for large segments of time is pretty expensive as well. That said, who knows if the Reeds come in. Both the writers and George love Natalie Tena as Osha so we may see the Reeds absorbed.

That really bothers me. (I guess I should say Spoilers, because i am talking about characters that arent in the show apparently) I think its a terrible idea to use Osha as the Reeds replacement. The Reeds gave purpose to Bran's plot line for the rest of the story. They are the ones who know what is going on with him more or less and who he will become. And if Osha is the Reeds, then how can Bran and Rickon split up? I know Rickon isnt a very well developed character in the show, but in the books the two of them being apart was key. It meant that all the stark children (and dire wolves) were apart and it was clear that the end of the story would be their reunion.

In the first season I was ok with many of the changes they made from the books. They were mostly to clear up things that wouldnt translate well from page to screen, or cutting scenes that arent necessary. The changes they made involved plots that were essentially closed (meaning they had no ramifications after they happend) But now it feels like they are adding things that change events for multiple books. This could make it a completely different story, and I dont think it will be one that I like as much as the books.

Also, I maybe be remember the plot points of the end book 2 and the beginning of book 3 wrong (i read them back to back so it is a little fuzzy), but they must need to pack a crap ton of stuff in that last episode if they need to include everything i think they do.

[CTHoya08]

I must be in the minority here. I really disliked week seven, but liked week eight a lot.

[JB5]

This week was clearly a transitional episode to set up next week. I'm looking forward to seeing how they handle it. One advantage to the changes from the book is that the Blackwater will have to play out at least somewhat differently, and we don't know exactly what to expect.

I also noticed that Jaqen's gift to Arya was left out. I guess that means we see Jaqen again next week. Arya's scenes this season have been so good, any excuse for more is OK with me.

I appreciate that the producers are trying to make the Qarth storyline a little more interesting than it was in the book, but I'm still not caring. Dany's plotline is still a sideshow that takes away valuable screentime from the main conflict.

On the other hand, it's good to see Jaime again. Nice scene on the river this week. ("Have you known many men? Women? Horses?") Hopefully, we'll get more of these.

One of my friends who has not read the books made the observation "Robb's an idiot to trust his brothers to someone named 'the Bastard of the Dreadfort.'"

[CTHoya08]

I'm glad they incorporated "Rains of Castamere" to sow the seed for . . . later events.

[JB5]

I have to say they delivered a worthy Battle of Blackwater. I read where the original idea was to set the whole episode inside Maegor's and have reports come in to describe the action, but HBO came through with extra funding. Money well spent. So many greta moments: Bronn faces off with Sandor Clegane, Sansa taunts Joffrey ("My brother leads from the front."), drunk Cersei, WILDFIRE!, the look on the pyromancer's face, Stannis leading the assault, Tyrion's speech, Joffrey leaving, Cersei ready to poison her child.

One thing that could have been better was that I had to watch the end twice to see that Loras was actually wearing Renly's armor. That should have been clearer. I'm also hoping there will be more explanation next week as to why a member of the Kingsguard attacked Tyrion.

Despite having read the book, I was sort of hoping Sansa would take the Hound's offer.

[SFHoya99]

Loved the episode. Highlights for me:

• Warrior Stannis doesn't make any sense; there's a missing chain; the battle isn't anywhere near as good as the book -- who cares? That was some fun-ass action starting with the KABOOM and I just love that they did the whole thing. Honestly, what TV show DOES this? What was the total number of complete cleavings?! Stannis took off the top of a dudes head! I'm not even sure that's possible, but it is awesome!
  
  
• Drunk Cersei is awesome. How much fun would the Lannisters be to go drinking with if they didn't hate you? I imagine drinking with Cersei is a lot like drinking with Boz -- full of alcohol, funny quips and some not so subtle bitterness -- but with less 80s music.
  
  
• I'm no SanSan shipper, at least not in the sense that I'd like them to get together, though I find the dynamic interesting and creepy, but they definitely toned down the creepiness, didn't they? Do we think it was because she's 16 in real life?
  
  
• Love The National's version of the Rains of Castamere in the end credits -- just wish they recorded more than one verse.
  
  
• Reading the reviews, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who equated Sandor walking out with dropping the mic -- of course, I just watched the 8 Mile rap battles the other day in which Rabbit's final rap is basically the same thing as Sandor walking out.
  
  
• Cersei jabbing Lancel in his wound! It definitely seems like there's some intent to keep Lancel's future storyline intact.
  
  
• JE pointed it out, but the reactions to KABOOM were priceless. Also, Davos getting blasted off the boat -- that's major movie effect, right there.
  
  
• I continue to be very happy about two little things that the writers do: one, that this dour, depressing show can be fairly funny; and two, that they continually incorporate little foreshadowings, subtle connections to the past, and tips o' the caps to the readers. The Rains of Castamere is a great example of the last point, but my favorite was the Tyrion/Varys exchange about Bells being harbingers of bad news: "...And Weddings."
  
  
• After a few eps where I didn't feel this way, I'm back to thinking some of the best scenes were added. The above Varys scene where we get motivation for him that's not revealed until much later in the books, of course, but also the throne room scene with Cersei and Tommen. Just fantastic filmmaking.
  
  
• Also think Martin did a beaucoup job of having Tyrion's speech not come off as too cheesy. There are brave men knocking at our door. Let's go kill them!
  
  
• Seeing what is going to happen next week makes me wonder if Blackwater shouldn't have been episode 8.
  

[Boz]

I'm not bitter when I'm drunk. Only when I'm sober.