JB5
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Post by JB5 on Apr 25, 2012 7:41:21 GMT -5
-------------- As for the Dragons, I'm sure CGI played a role, but I also think Dany knew her one trump card is Dragons -- except those Dragons are small and defenseless -- and revealing them for less than what you need is giving away the last thing she has. I realize its small, but she couldn't give in for nothing. I appreciate that the producers made a virtue of necessity and gave Dany a good reason for the dragons not appearing, but let's face it, the dragons are the only interesting thing about Dany's plotline for several books, and I for one want to see more of them. |
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 25, 2012 8:51:22 GMT -5
-------------- As for the Dragons, I'm sure CGI played a role, but I also think Dany knew her one trump card is Dragons -- except those Dragons are small and defenseless -- and revealing them for less than what you need is giving away the last thing she has. I realize its small, but she couldn't give in for nothing. I appreciate that the producers made a virtue of necessity and gave Dany a good reason for the dragons not appearing, but let's face it, the dragons are the only interesting thing about Dany's plotline for several books, and I for one want to see more of them. What, not a Daario Naharis fan? (Now there's a character I'd love them to cut!) I don't think the dragons are the only thing, but I don't imagine we'll be seeing much more of them than we have. They'll show up at the big parts -- HotU, Astapor, etc., but it's expensive to add scenes with them just to see them. The production budget is already $70M. |
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on Apr 25, 2012 9:48:29 GMT -5
My overall favorite, I think: "There's no cure for being a Edited." Thank you! I expected to see that line dominate my facebook and twitter feeds for the last couple days and when I didn't see a single overt reference to it, I started to imagine whether I had imagined the line altogether! The Qarth scene reflected my only major disappointment of the series adaptation thus far and that is the inability to depict crowds decently. I admittedly know nothing about the costs of CGI nor the producers' ability to find a critical mass of dusky-complexioned individuals in Wales or wherever these scenes are set, but I lacked the imagination to believe for a second that the Thirteen were at all scared by the Dothraki "horde" outside their gates, all 40 of them, mostly women and children. This was a problem last season, when they just couldn't convey with the <200 actors they were allotted that Khal Drogo led the largest khalasar ever assembled (over 30,000?). The heart-eating scene at Vaes Dothrak should have featured the majority Dothraki nation, at least 100,000 strong, but looked more like a Patriot League football game than a Big 10/SEC stadium filled with crazed horsemen. I don't mind that the battles are all offscreen; I think that's actually a clever way to keep the budget down since none of us are tuning in for the fight choreography. Is the new Margaery King-Husband content the first "invented" scene that has any ambiguity to it? All of the other "new" material has seemingly been used to expose ideas that were too subtle or expansive to express with the novel text alone and brought clarity to the plot. I wonder if they have opted for a more fully developed Margaery to avoid casting the Queen of Thorns. An intelligent Margaery with political acumen could easily pick up those plot elements instead. On that note, I've got to agree with the critics who can't understand why Catelyn Stark has been stripped of all agency. She's a strongwilled, purposeful individual in the novels, but on TV she just bounces along doing whatever she's told to do, e.g., by Robb or now by Littlefinger. A quick question: has the show revealed any of Littlefinger's history with the Tullys and the Starks? Aiden Gillen's performance has been wonderfully passionate, but I can't recall if his childhood situation has ever been explained outright to the non-reading population. His dashed face last week when he realized Tyrion wasn't really going to make him Lord of Harrenhal and rule over the Riverlands was pitch perfect - if you have any idea why the notion mattered so much to him. All in all, I think this was one of the best episodes thus far. |
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Apr 25, 2012 10:39:46 GMT -5
My overall favorite, I think: "There's no cure for being a Edited." Thank you! I expected to see that line dominate my facebook and twitter feeds for the last couple days and when I didn't see a single overt reference to it, I started to imagine whether I had imagined the line altogether! I would put that on my Facebook page, but my mom reads it. Not to mention young, impressionable nieces & nephews. ;D I have also had this problem last season. I am trying to not be too disappointed after others informed me of budget constraints, but it definitely detracts. Again, trying to be understanding, but there is a battle that will happen this season that simply cannot -- CANNOT -- happen off-screen. I am really hoping they saved up and blew the budget on that. If not, I am going to find it really hard to be forgiving. I think they used that scene to set Margaery up for becoming a much more active political player. Again, not to list too many spoilers (at least not specific ones), but this does happen in the books as well. Agree 100%. I think the CAt of the show bears very little resemblance to the Cat of the books, and that is a shame. Yes, this has been addressed, briefly and in detail. I'll have to do some looking though to remember specifically in which episodes Baelish recounted his history with Cat Tully, Branden Stark, and Ned Stark. |
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JB5
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Post by JB5 on Apr 25, 2012 11:39:26 GMT -5
Again, trying to be understanding, but there is a battle that will happen this season that simply cannot -- CANNOT -- happen off-screen. I am really hoping they saved up and blew the budget on that. If not, I am going to find it really hard to be forgiving. I'm hoping that's what they're saving the budget for. I'll agree to fewer CGI dragons in exchange for an epic clash of Kings. I was thinking about this. In the books (MINOR SPOILER WARNING) Catelyn means well but most everything she does ends up leading to disaster. By the time the story got to certain events in book 3, I was thinking "Robb, do the opposite of what your mom says." TV Cat gets to be a little more constructive. She warned Robb not to trust Balon Greyjoy and made more of an effort to get Renly to see reason than I remember from the book. I'd like to see her get more, but the series can't include everything. |
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Apr 25, 2012 12:06:51 GMT -5
Again, trying to be understanding, but there is a battle that will happen this season that simply cannot -- CANNOT -- happen off-screen. I am really hoping they saved up and blew the budget on that. If not, I am going to find it really hard to be forgiving. I'm hoping that's what they're saving the budget for. I'll agree to fewer CGI dragons in exchange for an epic clash of Kings. I hope you're right. I think it was wise of them to change Tyrion's role in the first battle in Season One. That part of the book seemed silly to me, and him getting knocked out of the fight before it was joined (and thus avoiding risk of real injury) seems much more fitting to me. But there is one battle that we must see. |
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 25, 2012 12:15:45 GMT -5
I know that the battle you speak of is the focus of the season. The title of the ninth episode is Blackwater. Martin wrote it. From comments in the press there's a decent amount of evidence that we don't leave King's Landing, e.g. The episode description only mentions KL instead of its usual five or so items.
Now, I don't expect Helm's Deep or the Pelennor Fields. I imagine it's still going to be closer shots and a decent amount of dialog amidst the carnage. But I think they will get it right. The Hound, Pod, Tyrion, Meryn ( in place of Mandon Moore), Cersei and Sansa in the keep. The chain and wildfire. I can see it taking the whole ep.
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hoopsmccan
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Post by hoopsmccan on Apr 30, 2012 10:26:48 GMT -5
A bit of a plot moving episode. Will be interested in nonreaders take on Renly’s death…I suspect most will see it as a “cheat” of sorts. I hope they hit the gas pedal on Dany’s storyline like they are doing with Jon’s (which I wouldn’t mind if they pumped the breaks on), but then again, I am only an intermittent fan of her storyline (which explains me not loving ADwD as much as others). I wish they spent a little more time on the Stannis/Davos relationship last episode…I think the back story adds a lot to the understanding of both men. I guess they couldn’t figure out a reason to have Ros at Dragonstone for the sexposition. Ros is the Forest Gump of Westeros…I’ll be disappointed if she is not bathing in Blackwater Bay at the time of the battle.
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derhoya
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Post by derhoya on May 1, 2012 8:10:31 GMT -5
Where is a good flow chart to connect these names/faces with the series? Something like Southpark (Mr. Garrison trying to explain the connections to the class, pretty hilarious) mocked up in a recent episode should do + faces.
Gracias.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on May 1, 2012 9:56:00 GMT -5
HBO does a nice one, with the added bonus that they aren't going to accidentally spoil you: This is the Houses section: Viewers Guide |
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on May 1, 2012 10:42:05 GMT -5
A bit of a plot moving episode. Will be interested in nonreaders take on Renly’s death…I suspect most will see it as a “cheat” of sorts. I hope they hit the gas pedal on Dany’s storyline like they are doing with Jon’s (which I wouldn’t mind if they pumped the breaks on), but then again, I am only an intermittent fan of her storyline (which explains me not loving ADwD as much as others). I wish they spent a little more time on the Stannis/Davos relationship last episode…I think the back story adds a lot to the understanding of both men. I guess they couldn’t figure out a reason to have Ros at Dragonstone for the sexposition. Ros is the Forest Gump of Westeros…I’ll be disappointed if she is not bathing in Blackwater Bay at the time of the battle. Well as a non-reader I can definitely see it as a cheat, but then again you fall back on the all's fair in love and war. Definitely felt a lot like an episode of lost. Lots of things happened but sort of not much happened as well. Plus there was a smoke monster. |
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on May 1, 2012 11:24:32 GMT -5
A bit of a plot moving episode. Will be interested in nonreaders take on Renly’s death…I suspect most will see it as a “cheat” of sorts. I hope they hit the gas pedal on Dany’s storyline like they are doing with Jon’s (which I wouldn’t mind if they pumped the breaks on), but then again, I am only an intermittent fan of her storyline (which explains me not loving ADwD as much as others). I wish they spent a little more time on the Stannis/Davos relationship last episode…I think the back story adds a lot to the understanding of both men. I guess they couldn’t figure out a reason to have Ros at Dragonstone for the sexposition. Ros is the Forest Gump of Westeros…I’ll be disappointed if she is not bathing in Blackwater Bay at the time of the battle. It didn't come off as a cheat to me in the book. I think this was true because Renly wasn't a character but the Stannis crew are. The focus was more on Davos' opinion of it than anything. I definitely agree with the plot moving episode and I'm sure they are just gathering momentum for the rest of the season. However, there were two fantastic scenes: - Jorah and Dany was just done perfectly. Perfect writing, perfect acting. Jorah's half-fatherly, half-romantic feelings for Dany and Dany's willful ignoring of it are one of the nice touches I love about the novels. They managed to display it while simultaneously hitting on the overall theme of the episode: does a leader need to be loved to be deserving? Does it help a leader any? Is it necessary? - Another scene brilliantly done that addresses the same theme is the Arya-Tywin scene. Just perfectly done and I love this show because it seems that about twice every episode, there is a just a scene done perfectly with tremendous impact. Very few shows do that for me. Heck, very few shows try. But even in this plot mover of an episode, it was great to get this scene. - Brienne is badass. I like that they set her up immediately as not just capable but really, freaking good. - The shots north of the Wall -- shot in Iceland -- are gorgeous. |
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JB5
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Post by JB5 on May 1, 2012 14:02:14 GMT -5
The clue that Renly was not going to survive long was that the actor's name never appeared in the opening credits.
SF, I'm with you on the Arya-Tywin scene. One of the best of the whole series thus far.
I also liked the Littlefinger-Margaery scene ("I want to be THE Queen.") Also well done. Where do I sign up to vote for Margaery over Dany in the clash of queens?
Nice first appearance by Qhorin. Can't wait for next week to meet another important character north of the Wall.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on May 1, 2012 14:44:15 GMT -5
The clue that Renly was not going to survive long was that the actor's name never appeared in the opening credits. SF, I'm with you on the Arya-Tywin scene. One of the best of the whole series thus far. I also liked the Littlefinger-Margaery scene ("I want to be THE Queen.") Also well done. Where do I sign up to vote for Margaery over Dany in the clash of queens? Nice first appearance by Qhorin. Can't wait for next week to meet another important character north of the Wall. You know nothing, Jon Snow. It will likely never happen as in the Book (Book 3), but I love for them to keep some version of Martin's most Tolkien-esque scene. "...For I am the last of the Giants..." |
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on May 4, 2012 12:36:03 GMT -5
Well as a non-reader I can definitely see it as a cheat, but then again you fall back on the all's fair in love and war. I think the cheat issue could have been avoided if they had been able to spend just a wee bit of time with the Cortnay Penrose/Eric Storm subplot. (For the nonreader, Stannis orignally uses Malisandre's wombdemon to murder one of House Baratheon's most loyal bannermen, for reasons that become much clearer in later books. It does even more to showcase Stannis's "iron" nature). I'm not confident regarding how HBO intends to handle Samwell Tarly's plotline in ADwD without having laid the groundwork in this scene. However, there were two fantastic scenes: - Jorah and Dany was just done perfectly. Perfect writing, perfect acting. Jorah's half-fatherly, half-romantic feelings for Dany and Dany's willful ignoring of it are one of the nice touches I love about the novels. They managed to display it while simultaneously hitting on the overall theme of the episode: does a leader need to be loved to be deserving? Does it help a leader any? Is it necessary? Thanks for imbueing this scene with more meaning than I witnessed. I really didn't care much for how they handled it but your interpretation makes me think more highly of it. I still think part of Jorah's response should have included, "Because I want to go home!!" In any event, there was something missing from this episode (e.g., an action that Jorah takes in Qarth) that ought to have been conveyed directly, perhaps with a callback to Season 1, Episode 5, because I don't think it's been mentioned again. - Another scene brilliantly done that addresses the same theme is the Arya-Tywin scene. Just perfectly done and I love this show because it seems that about twice every episode, there is a just a scene done perfectly with tremendous impact. Very few shows do that for me. Heck, very few shows try. But even in this plot mover of an episode, it was great to get this scene. Loved it, loved it, loved it. It was very well executed. However, (not HBO's fault at all!) how do you have an intense discussion about mortality with Tywin Lannister in front of his generals ("No milord anyone can be killed") and then go valar morghulis on The Tickler?? Argh!!!!! I hate you Arya Stark, I hate you!!!! I think everyone else covered the highest notes of this week (Cat-Brienne, Baelish-Maergary) but I want to acknowledge that I dig the portrayal of Lancel Lannister. He's injecting into the series that much needed humorous element that by right ought to be coming from Podrick Payne, but alas, there's simply no room in the production for Paynes. |
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on May 7, 2012 22:03:13 GMT -5
How has Arya not had Tywin whacked? The obvious reason is that she doesn't have that opportunity in the book. But it seems like an obvious decision to make, especially knowing (as she must) that Robb holds Jaime captive. I can understand not using her first one on him, but once she saw how the Tickler was dispatched without anyone getting caught, why not try to win the war?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on May 8, 2012 12:02:49 GMT -5
How has Arya not had Tywin whacked? The obvious reason is that she doesn't have that opportunity in the book. But it seems like an obvious decision to make, especially knowing (as she must) that Robb holds Jaime captive. I can understand not using her first one on him, but once she saw how the Tickler was dispatched without anyone getting caught, why not try to win the war? She does have that opportunity in the book. She chooses Chiswyck after hearing him brag about gang raping people. Then she chooses Weese -- she is the serving girl for Weese and he had hit her. But Tywin is at Harrenhal at this time. She could have killed him. After he leaves, she laments that she used her kills superficially and stupidly. She is an eight year old girl, and went after people who were much more viscerally problematic, not strategically important. So she decides to think carefully about the last one... |
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on May 8, 2012 12:42:40 GMT -5
What did people think of the last episode? I loved: - Theon, Bran and Rodrick Cassel at Winterfell. Bran screaming in the background; Rodrick saying "Hush, boys, I'm off to see your father," Theon incapable of severing his head in one swift stroke. It echoed both the opening scenes of the show (Ned cleanly executing the NW deserter) and Ned's death (with Sansa screaming in the background). As I've said before, this show seems to absolutely nail one to two scenes an episode that are amongst the best TV out there. This one was it.
- I like how they attempted to spice up a couple of the most boring stories in ACOK: Dany and Jon. Not sure I loved every bit of the changes, but it was really nice to have an action-packed episode. We had the dark torture ep, then the lighter ep, now the action ep in a row here.
- The Hound. Actually, the whole riot scene was awesome. If that's all we get of KL, it was perfect: Cersei threatening Tyrion, Joffrey being Joffrey, Sansa with some backbone, crap on Joffrey's face, the High Septon being ripped apart, a glimpse of Lollys, Tyrion slapping Joffrey, and the Hound absolutely destroying people and saving his little bird.
- The humor in Arya's storyline. There's been a lot of criticism of these scenes for their slightly comical aspect -- the Littlefinger/Arya dance, Arya demanding Jaqen do it RIGHT NOW!, Amory Lorch falling flat (which was a laugh out loud moment for me). For me, I find a bit of levity -- and tension -- created by these changes was a nice change from the constant dark world we have. I think it was Andy Greenwald of Grantland who basically summed it up in Ep 4 as "Westeros just sucks."
I watched Heroes for about half a season, right up until I realized that aside from Hiro, these people were always so intensely serious. We need levity -- no one wants to even wants Westeros without it. And it can't all be Tyrion & Bron.
Things I will wait to reserve judgement on: - Jon and Dany's changes. I am all for added excitement, added scenes, etc., as long as the story reconverges and the characters don't change too much. I worry that Jon's final scene of the book will occur but under different premises (which could change his character). Plus, it's a kick ass scene. I am less worried about Dany -- she didn't do anything really in Qarth anyway, so this is likely fine unless it alters Jorah.
- Dany as Viserys. Season One seems to be Dany going from weak to strong. But she's seemingly backtracked on deserving the Iron Throne. Jorah can tell her she has a gentle heart, but she seems paramountly selfish. She doesn't really seem to care about dead Irri or her Khalasar -- merely that she gets what is hers. Perhaps this is her new arc -- and it won't really reach it's apex until the end of Season Four. That's a lot of FIRE AND BLOOD!
Things I wish had been different: - This is total book purist, but Ygritte has a great line when Jon is about to execute her in the book -- something to the effect of "Hurry up. I don't know how much longer I can be brave" which I've always loved. It's the one moment where she cracks her mask. They do it differently and not as well.
Question of the DayDid Littlefinger identify Arya? If so, what do you think his plans are for that information? |
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on May 8, 2012 14:12:07 GMT -5
Theon's conquest of Winterfell was great. With any luck, Osha, Hodor, Bran, and Rickon will encounter crannogmen in the woods in the next episode. Making Osha carry the Reeds' storyline beyond this season seems like it will be too much of a stretch of the character.
I thought the riot in King's Landing should have taken place in the last episode and (prematurely) regretted its absence. This scene came off very well in my opinion, especially considering the producers' inability to simulate crowds decently. I'm starting to hope the writers can promise more gratuitous Joffrey-slapping in future episodes. I just wish the Hound's story had earned more exposition over the last two seasons though. If you read Books 1 and 2, you've had his cruelty drilled into you from slaughtering Mycah the butcher's boy onward, especially from Arya's perspective, and I think that's been lost in the adaptation, so much so that his nobler moments (helping to save Ser Dontos, refusing to strip-beat Sansa, and rescuing Sansa from the mob) aren't such striking contrasts.
I'm a little irked by how the Jon-Ygritte story was tweaked. Isn't there a significant moral difference between consciously allowing her to escape and accidentally letting her escape? Furthermore, given the time spent on the scene, some kind of emotional bonding could have taken place between the two instead of the hipgrinding (and what was up with the "let's just lie down here on the trail at the cliff's edge instead of finding a cave or something that could pass as a campsite?" I don't think Joffrey would have been that incompetent at surviving outside on his own). I admit I had high hopes for this storyline, but right now I'd just like it to be executed better than the shmoopy eyes between Robb and Talisa-Jeyne. Speaking of which, if they're intent on her not-being-Jeyne, then I think this plotline got dramatically worse.
I agree with you on the humor completely. I've no idea where "stonemason" popped into Arya's head regarding her father's occupation though.
In general, I don't think they've done enough to convey that Qarth is not where Dany needs to be: no one there is going to help and the longer she lingers the less likely it is that she'll ever get to Westeros. A bit of the plot is hurt by the fact that - due to the limitations of CGI - she doesn't have a small army with her as she does in the book. In Book 2, all she really needs is a way to transport her khalasar across the Narrow Sea -- the Spice King's fleet could do the job. My expectations are raised by the cliffhanger: the House of the Undying in Qarth better turn out something like the boat ride in Willy Wonka.
I don't think Baelish identified Arya, which is somewhat ridiculous considering that he begins his discussion of trading Jaime for the Stark daughters IMMEDIATELY after she spills the wine on him.
Secondary note: WTF was the anecdote about Tywin teaching young dyslexic Jaime how to read supposed to be about?!? Was this supposed to build sympathy, and for which character? When you see how many scenes are sacrificed for the sake of economy, it's hard to know what to make of the invented elements and what they're meant to substitute for.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on May 8, 2012 14:21:58 GMT -5
Rosslyn,
The Reeds and Ramsay haven't been cast for this season. Ramsay was mentioned, and I expect him to be cast for season 3 (and to show up in this season in armor or with a mask or whatever). Actors are expensive and apparently reserving them for large segments of time is pretty expensive as well. That said, who knows if the Reeds come in. Both the writers and George love Natalie Tena as Osha so we may see the Reeds absorbed.
I'm with on Sandor -- there probably could have been setup as he's a pretty major character from here on out.
As for Jon and Ygritte ... I think the emotional bonding will come. The storyline really doesn't begin until Book 3, so this is table setting and will likely be small. I think agree with you a bit on the letting go v not, but a) it's clear he intentionally didn't kill her and b) there's still a chance he will let her go.
I think Baelish saw her and kept it to himself.
On the dyslexia, I think it was supposed to establish a bit of Tywin's character and his relationship with his children quickly. He doesn't really accept failure, and will beat it out of you through pure persistence.
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