RDF
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Post by RDF on Dec 10, 2010 11:23:57 GMT -5
It's also frustrating if you have watched an offensively challenged Temple team play-they miss a lot of bunnies/and it's something Maryland used to get back into game from being down 15 and Temple got tired, sloppy, and held on. Georgetown was in similar game against Utah State--who also played good halfcourt defense--and look how game turned when they applied pressure? For the fan who mentioned the '85 Title Game--same thing--Georgetown didn't press--and when you press--you force players to play aggressively and dictate to opponents how the game will be played--when you sit back against a team who wants to play halfcourt game--you are on your heels and when your team's weakness is halfcourt defense--you get games like last night.
To Temple's credit--they knocked down FT's, they dictated how the game would be played, and they made a few tough shots--Jefferson's 3 in Chris' face after Hoyas finally tied it was a big time shot.
It's frustrating to fans of Hoyas who have seen this team repeatedly be careless with the ball and commit bad turnovers and play bad defense. Certain turnovers are acceptable--Chris dropoff pass that Sims wasn't ready for was a great pass and Henry's got to make that play-but it was unselfish, and right play. The plays of Freeman throwing a 40 foot pass ahead to Benimon, Vaughn not being tough enough to provide a strong target/catch the ball, Chris's crazy drive after the Jefferson 3 to put them up which created an easy hoop/5 pt lead for Temple. It's just something that NEEDED/NEEDS/BETTER be addressed or similar results will follow. When you are a mediocre defensive team--you have to value the ball more--and this team is an offensive minded team--so each possession thrown away matters even more because the likelihood of getting stops to make it up is not likely-unless they press. Which leads me/others who want were frustrated by lack of pressing back to......
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Post by centercourt400s on Dec 10, 2010 11:25:58 GMT -5
Making adjustments sounds nice and we do seem to normally be able to adjust at halftime... but sometimes it just doesn't matter. Temple played well as a team, we played ok (but not nearly as well as we have been) and Moore played the game of his life. He was the best player on the court last night by a wide margin. There is no reason for us to make excuses about his performance.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Dec 10, 2010 11:29:57 GMT -5
That was definitely a weird game for us against Moore. I have never seen a player go off against us like that who wasnt making tremendous plays. It didnt really even seem that Moore was that dynamic. I dont think that is sour grapes, go back and watch the game, we just simply didnt play good defense against him. I feel like we just kept thinking- he is not this good.
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on Dec 10, 2010 11:32:10 GMT -5
time to MOVE ON beat appliachian state on sunday maybe with a tad o moses there some go hoyas ;D ;D ;D ;D ps BRING KIDS BOOKS its about more than bball stillthink jt3 is a ok coach WRIGHT ?? GO HOYAS
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Post by centercourt400s on Dec 10, 2010 11:45:48 GMT -5
Moore was that good... last night. Aside from the hang on the rim after his blow by of Vaughn, he did it classy too. No jawing or excessive celebration that I could see... just a guy in the zone making plays when he needed to and having his way on the court. No excuses needed and a great performance that we should respect for what it was: a career night.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Dec 10, 2010 11:56:07 GMT -5
It's also frustrating if you have watched an offensively challenged Temple team play-they miss a lot of bunnies/and it's something Maryland used to get back into game from being down 15 and Temple got tired, sloppy, and held on. Georgetown was in similar game against Utah State--who also played good halfcourt defense--and look how game turned when they applied pressure? For the fan who mentioned the '85 Title Game--same thing--Georgetown didn't press--and when you press--you force players to play aggressively and dictate to opponents how the game will be played--when you sit back against a team who wants to play halfcourt game--you are on your heels and when your team's weakness is halfcourt defense--you get games like last night. To Temple's credit--they knocked down FT's, they dictated how the game would be played, and they made a few tough shots--Jefferson's 3 in Chris' face after Hoyas finally tied it was a big time shot. It's frustrating to fans of Hoyas who have seen this team repeatedly be careless with the ball and commit bad turnovers and play bad defense. Certain turnovers are acceptable--Chris dropoff pass that Sims wasn't ready for was a great pass and Henry's got to make that play-but it was unselfish, and right play. The plays of Freeman throwing a 40 foot pass ahead to Benimon, Vaughn not being tough enough to provide a strong target/catch the ball, Chris's crazy drive after the Jefferson 3 to put them up which created an easy hoop/5 pt lead for Temple. It's just something that NEEDED/NEEDS/BETTER be addressed or similar results will follow. When you are a mediocre defensive team--you have to value the ball more--and this team is an offensive minded team--so each possession thrown away matters even more because the likelihood of getting stops to make it up is not likely-unless they press. Which leads me/others who want were frustrated by lack of pressing back to...... Only one disagreement - Chris was not relly in Jefferson's face, in fact he lost him badly trying to cheat around a pick, was very late getting back out on him, so Jefferson was pretty open when he first went up for the 3.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Dec 10, 2010 12:19:02 GMT -5
I think we have two great examples of complete over-reactions to a December CBB game - the Temple students storming the court and this message board's reaction to a seemingly forgivable loss. I am a little surprised at the level of angst/desperation I am already seeing on this board; either many of you have a very inflated view of this team in December or you just like to whine about everything.
Vegas had this game as a pick'em, is it really a surprise we lost by a single possession? There are fair criticisms to be made but there is almost no balance here. Temple is a damn good team, they just came up to DC and beat MD and started the season ranked and will be again. If we play a better defensive team all year, I would be shocked. Winning on the road agianst a good team in CBB is hard, I am saving my sky is falling stuff if we lose a game where we are significant favorites.
Basically Mizzou and Temple were toss-up games, we won one and lost one, seems about right.
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Post by strummer8526 on Dec 10, 2010 12:19:41 GMT -5
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (This post is equivalent to rushing the court last night. It's better understood as a nonsensically humorous overreaction than as something appropriate under the circumstances.)
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joey0403p
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Post by joey0403p on Dec 10, 2010 12:36:35 GMT -5
I actually think reaction on the board has been reasonable.
no one is screaming "the sky is falling" and being serious about it.
it was a tough game. we could have won - but we didn't. we hope to learn from it.
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Post by centercourt400s on Dec 10, 2010 12:38:23 GMT -5
Come on... its a holiday tradition to have a premature meltdown on the HoyaTalk board around this time of year. It always happens somewhere between finishing the turkey leftovers and ringing in the new year. Come on, sing with me... "Have a happy HoyaTalk meltdown, the end of the world is near. Oh by golly have a happy HoyaTalk meltdown this year!".
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Buckets
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Post by Buckets on Dec 10, 2010 12:48:44 GMT -5
I really don't get why everyone is so down on Vaughn. Had a pitiful first half, but came back in the second half and went 3/4 FG, 6/6 FT, 5 rebounds and helped hold Allen to 2/7 shooting and Temple to 4 offensive rebounds on 17 missed shots. Benimon/Sims/Lubick combined for 3 points and 1 rebound in 12 minutes in the second half, so it's not like we had anything else going.
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Post by vamosalaplaya on Dec 10, 2010 13:00:10 GMT -5
As RDF noted in what seemed like about 10 posts Vaughn failed to "come to the ball" on several passes in the first half - the sort of thing you cover in coaching sixth grade basketball - it was a jarring thing to see for someone used to playing big, quick players. JT III went 10 deep last night. That was great to see.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Dec 10, 2010 13:01:25 GMT -5
I agree that reaction has not been that excessive, other than a post or two. Although it was a close game on the road against a very good team, we did not play well, and there were some mistakes that experienced guys should not be making; but every team has a couple of down games, hopefully we just got one out ofn the way and won't have more than 1 or 2 more all season.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Dec 10, 2010 13:01:45 GMT -5
This could be best thing to happen to team or it could be peak into future. Really up to them to look at film--talk it over and let's be honest--Wright's lost privilege of going without a timeout--ignoring Freeman 1 time for last shot is acceptible--2 times-it's not--and III's got to draw up a play--so they can not only get a better look but have more time to tip/foul if they miss that look instead of desperation we saw tonight. Think you're right...could be either. Certainly a game that put the team's weaknesses on display, but they do exist...we've just glossed over a bit since early November because of a strong 8-0 start. I'll take your point a little further: I think the past three games are a good learning opportunity and the progression of the matchups--though probably not intentional--could give the team/staff something to ponder. I'm reminded of that term "eff you mode" that describes when your video game system decides you've been winning too much or too easily and sets a game where your opponent dominates--either can't miss or seems to know everything that's coming. The Missouri game seemed too easy. Yes, it went to overtime and we were fortunate to get there. Still, we cashed in open threes throughout the first half, shot 71 percent (12-13 from two point range!) and didn't face much resistance. Even once we were down in the second half and not as strong from three, we attacked in transition and half-court sets and got to the rim a little too easy almost, if I'm being honest. Jason Clark's threes in overtime--nothing special, just vanilla half-court sets and hand offs, but he had plenty of open space. Missouri to their (Marcus Denmon's specifically) credit got hot too, but the computer just decided that day that the offense was going to work. Missouri is the game where offensively, pretty much anything worked. Utah State was quite a different game. Some discussion was made of how poor USU was at defending the three, but that didn't play out during the game. In fact, they over-played the three point line on screens. Whether there was a concerted effort on our part not to rely as heavily on the outside shot I don't know, but we didn't take nearly as many. What stood out in that game was the contrast in half-court offense. Missouri you remember for the threes, Utah State for the number of times Chris Wright (and to a lesser extent Austin Freeman) went off the dribble from the perimeter and got wide open layups, because USU was too slow to rotate properly or stay with our guards. We also pressed a lot in the opening of the second half to extend a lead (this game, strangely, actually did resemble the way I play a video game...an observation that has exactly zero value for anything. ;D ). Utah State is the game where the computer took away that one play you keep running, but you win anyway by going heavy on the turbo button. Temple stylistically is much more similar to Utah State, but here we have better athletes and more importantly a coach in Fran Dunphy who knows Coach Thompson well. Throw in a good road crowd and it's got potential for bad news. Temple defended very well and like Utah State for the most part prevented decent looks from three point range. The trick was, they also were able to better (though not completely by any means) take away our guards' ability to create off the dribble. What's more, they definitely punished the...ahem...soft middle of Georgetown's lineup, whether that's stripping the ball, blocking shots, or exploiting slow defense...too much to name. What made this game interesting for me was the lack of a big scoring run either way. Temple built an 11 point lead in the first half, but beyond that nobody it seemed scored more than two or so consecutive baskets. The difference were those "little runs" of 4 or 5 straight points--two baskets--that Temple would put in just as we'd cut to within one stop, or even tie it. The best example was when we tied the score late in the second, but gave up a corner 3 (from my view, looked like Chris slipped when his man faked a baseline run and cut back to the corner) then compounded with an out of control turnover that became a layup. Austin Freeman's turnover discussed here is a classic case of playing with the turbo button pressed. Temple took away the easy three pointer that Missouri gave, as well as the comfortable drive Utah State offered. So the base plays don't work easily, and you're now punished for just mashing down on the turbo button and heading for the rim. That's what we found ourselves in last night. And let me tell you, sitting ten rows behind the bench, that did frustrate the team. Pretty much every timeout, a different player(s) was visibly frustrated. A good sign--the players are taking the lead in talking to each other in those huddles and offering encouragement. A bad sign--pretty much everyone had one of those moments, so this game seemingly had the team rattled. When you find yourself in those situations when the "computer" has you figured out, it requires a very careful approach--one that limits turnovers, makes good decisions on offense, and plays solid defense. We fell short in each of those areas last night--a lot of it having to do, I think, with the stinking turbo button. The last possession: in principle, I'm okay with that approach, but...well, Hollis needs to lay off the right trigger. But we were there on the last possession when not playing well, so that in itself can be a learning experience. But were we "there" before? Isn't this game close to a copy of the ODU game? Now there, we got some outside shooting in the final 8 minutes and a scoring run, helped out by some defensive stops that weren't there tonight.
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Dhall
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Post by Dhall on Dec 10, 2010 13:12:28 GMT -5
While I really like this team and don't think the sky is falling by any means, we could easily be sitting here at 6-3 with zero quality wins if we miss one or two shots against ODU and Mizzou. For all the hoopla over our preseason schedule, I suspect that only 2 of the teams we've played so far will be ranked by the end of the year, plus maybe Memphis.
So, as is always the case, this team will really be measured on how they do in the Big East, the best basketball conference in the country. Wish we could fast forward right to it. Go Hoyas.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Dec 10, 2010 13:13:44 GMT -5
A postscript--I saw somewhere a reference to one of those classic post-loss "let's compare ourselves to a Final Four team who did this!" exercises. This one compared our loss to Duke's loss at Wisconsin last season. Why we keep trying to turn Julian Vaughn and/or Henry Sims into Brian Zoubek, I don't know.
There's a better--but not more comforting--analogy. A guard-focused team with a frontcourt rotation that, while big in numbers, wasn't very threatening and always below the surface a red flag for the team.
One year ago this Monday, December 13, 2009 at the Liacouras Center:
Temple 75 Villanova 65
It's strange to remember that when we beat Villanova in the Snowmageddonocalypse game, that was still their only loss--they were #2 and 20-1.
And then...they also ended up in Providence, almost gagged a game to #15 Robert Morris, and were eaten alive by Omar Samhan.
The lesson here: you can play very well and have a great season, but unless you work on correcting your weaknesses, they'll come back to you eventually.
That's the challenge now for Georgetown, those weaknesses having hurt us in a game.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 10, 2010 13:21:38 GMT -5
I have to admit that I thought the boys would pull it out. I don't know why. In close, tough contests, I tend to have the feeling that somehow the team I want to win won't. But I had the feeling the Hoyas would win up until the very last second. I even thought the last second half-courter was going to go in and send it to overtime. Obviously I was wrong.
2 Questions:
1. Do you all think that it might have been a good game to maybe speed the game up a little? I know that isn't JTIII's style, but I thought it might have worked out in the Hoyas favor last night.
2. Rushing the court ... really? I guess we should take it as a compliment, but still ...
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757hoyafan
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Post by 757hoyafan on Dec 10, 2010 13:23:50 GMT -5
We could be 0-9; but we are 8-1 for a reason. Why are folks always so damn negative? While I really like this team and don't think the sky is falling by any means, we could easily be sitting here at 6-3 with zero quality wins if we miss one or two shots against ODU and Mizzou. For all the hoopla over our preseason schedule, I suspect that only 2 of the teams we've played so far will be ranked by the end of the year, plus maybe Memphis. So, as is always the case, this team will really be measured on how they do in the Big East, the best basketball conference in the country. Wish we could fast forward right to it. Go Hoyas.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Dec 10, 2010 13:27:29 GMT -5
We could be 0-9; but we are 8-1 for a reason. Why are folks always so damn negative? While I really like this team and don't think the sky is falling by any means, we could easily be sitting here at 6-3 with zero quality wins if we miss one or two shots against ODU and Mizzou. For all the hoopla over our preseason schedule, I suspect that only 2 of the teams we've played so far will be ranked by the end of the year, plus maybe Memphis. So, as is always the case, this team will really be measured on how they do in the Big East, the best basketball conference in the country. Wish we could fast forward right to it. Go Hoyas. The 2008 team easily could have been 11-7 in Big East play and the the 2009 team could have been 10-8 had few balls bounced a different way. The 2007 easily could have been knocked out in the second round, sweet sixteen and elite eight. You aren't defined by your what ifs.
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chep3
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Post by chep3 on Dec 10, 2010 13:38:09 GMT -5
I don't think the board is having a meltdown. People, myself included, just thought we played sloppy, unfocused, and didn't work hard enough on our defense. And going back to Moore, we definitely made him look better than he was/is. Granted, the kid played a very good game, but he wasn't making really tough shots. We gave him a series of good looks and to his credit, he knocked them down. You'd just hope that when a guy goes off for 17 in the first half, you'd keep him from getting those same looks after halftime.
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