Just Cos
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Eat 'em up Hoyas
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Post by Just Cos on Dec 10, 2010 0:17:30 GMT -5
Meh, i still dont have any problem with what happened at the end of the game. As was said, if Hollis is able to get the ball out of his hands to Julian (and, I think the only reason he didnt was because he got slightly bumped), we get an easy layup. Not calling a TO is the right call to me. Our offense looked awful all night running our plays against Temple. Hollis just couldnt make the play. It happens, it's basketball. I get that. Maybe Hollis makes a good play and we win. But I don't understand how anybody could be satisfied that none of your best players are involved in the last shot. Simple as that. Wright needs to be the one creating in that situation - not passing to a guy who now has a track record of making the wrong decisions in that situation. This is what is frustrating, but I'd rather get the youngsters experience now in that situation than in January, February...
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Dec 10, 2010 0:29:55 GMT -5
As someone said this game had the feel of a game played right after semester exams and before holidays. Everyone looked a step slow. Julian again was a second slow on defense and offense. he never adjusted to the one-on-one coverage Temple was using against him. He kept getting ball and waiting for the Owls to double him and it never came, but he would wait anyway until his defender was set, instead of going up strong immediately. The Hoyas interior defense was very porous. Vaugn and Sims were repeatedly out of position as last defenders of the basket, so Moore and his teammates either made layup or rebound basket of missed layup. If JT3 can get team to improve the defense from this loss then it was worth it. Hollis is a sophomore even thoug he has been on team for 3 years. Last year he would not even have thought a second about shooting the ball in the Missouri game or this one. Its a process. Remember Chris did the same thing his soph season and he learned to be stronger with the ball. Hollis is the Hoyas 4th option. The Olws were not going to let the big 3 get the ball, so Hollis had the lane, he just did not finish. Come January he will finish stronger. JT3 did his impression of Phill Jackson's coaching tonight. He did not call timeout so that the team could figure it out by themselves. I agree with whoever said that Chris should not have given ball up until he got to the basket. All again looked tired and like none of them wanted the ball at the end but Thompson. Maybe Clark's flu like symptoms spread to everyone. OK, the Moses era begins Sunday. Moses your first commandment "Thou shalt not let there be uncontested layups under your basket".
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Dec 10, 2010 0:30:34 GMT -5
Losing never helps you learn--understanding what leads to losing is how you improve. This team won't get better for losing--they'll get better if they realize this was same crap they've had happen to them in past and actually do something about it.
How many YEARS has it been that Hoya fans have been frustrated by bad perimeteter/backcourt defense? Make that awful defense as a team too-no rotation, no communicating, bending at waist while other teams dive on court.
If you want to "learn" from a loss and have it help--then get after people on defense, know your opponent/assignments, and play hard on that end for an entire game. Teams are going to score/make tough shots, have great players--this was NOT one of those teams--this was a game right out of vault of past 2 years--no rotation, no close outs, do they look at a scouting report or just "play"?
Also--I agree with poster who wanted more Lubick tonight--he brings a toughness/physical aspect to team that has been lacking.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Dec 10, 2010 0:42:54 GMT -5
Losing never helps you learn--understanding what leads to losing is how you improve. This team won't get better for losing--they'll get better if they realize this was same crap they've had happen to them in past and actually do something about it. How many YEARS has it been that Hoya fans have been frustrated by bad perimeteter/backcourt defense? Make that awful defense as a team too-no rotation, no communicating, bending at waist while other teams dive on court. If you want to "learn" from a loss and have it help--then get after people on defense, know your opponent/assignments, and play hard on that end for an entire game. Teams are going to score/make tough shots, have great players--this was NOT one of those teams--this was a game right out of vault of past 2 years--no rotation, no close outs, do they look at a scouting report or just "play"? Also--I agree with poster who wanted more Lubick tonight--he brings a toughness/physical aspect to team that has been lacking. Agree on Lubick. Would have liked to have seen same lineup at end of Missouri game in this one. One that had Sims and Lubick in game.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Dec 10, 2010 0:48:24 GMT -5
Losing never helps you learn--understanding what leads to losing is how you improve. This team won't get better for losing--they'll get better if they realize this was same crap they've had happen to them in past and actually do something about it. How many YEARS has it been that Hoya fans have been frustrated by bad perimeteter/backcourt defense? Make that awful defense as a team too-no rotation, no communicating, bending at waist while other teams dive on court. If you want to "learn" from a loss and have it help--then get after people on defense, know your opponent/assignments, and play hard on that end for an entire game. Teams are going to score/make tough shots, have great players--this was NOT one of those teams--this was a game right out of vault of past 2 years--no rotation, no close outs, do they look at a scouting report or just "play"? Also--I agree with poster who wanted more Lubick tonight--he brings a toughness/physical aspect to team that has been lacking. Well you can't exactly understand why you lose until you actually lose. Therefore losing CAN help. Losing can be a wake up call to work on specific areas that you over look because you win. Bad habits get overlooked when you win and sometimes are addressed when they finally hurt you. That being said, I pray, PRAY that this is finally the game that everyone realizes our number one priority NEEDS to be defense. Although, for the first time in what feels like forever, we actually got the late game stops. We didn't convert on the other end, which is what we usually do, but we did stop them when we needed to which is what we always lack. If all we work on in practice the next 3 months is defense, we will be a significantly better team than we were last year imo. Perimeter defense, zone defense, our defensive rotations. Thats all this team needs to do. These players will always figure out ways to score, but they have yet to figure out how to play defense.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Dec 10, 2010 1:59:38 GMT -5
This group has done plenty of losing in their careers--they need to learn to win these type of games. There is a reason the National Champion usually is a team that has 5/less losses--it's because they find a way to win tough games and on nights they play poorly.
Don't understand why you don't full court pressure a 7 man team to wear them down??? III's got to utilize this pressure and realize--you give up some hoops but it's to wear a team down over course of a game--and it hides a poor defensive team in the halfcourt. This group can't play out a possession defensively-but if you make teams work hard to bring ball up--they can defend for a strong 20 seconds---and that is point of the press/depth.
Just an overall stinker and nothing good taken from this--except guys kept battling. Thought it was poorly coached, poorly played, and just a bad loss that you can't take anything from because it's just a reflection of last season/past all over again.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Dec 10, 2010 2:57:59 GMT -5
This group has done plenty of losing in their careers--they need to learn to win these type of games. There is a reason the National Champion usually is a team that has 5/less losses--it's because they find a way to win tough games and on nights they play poorly. Don't understand why you don't full court pressure a 7 man team to wear them down??? III's got to utilize this pressure and realize--you give up some hoops but it's to wear a team down over course of a game--and it hides a poor defensive team in the halfcourt. This group can't play out a possession defensively-but if you make teams work hard to bring ball up--they can defend for a strong 20 seconds---and that is point of the press/depth. Just an overall stinker and nothing good taken from this--except guys kept battling. Thought it was poorly coached, poorly played, and just a bad loss that you can't take anything from because it's just a reflection of last season/past all over again. I agree with everything until the last paragraph. I think there is plenty to take and learn from this game, and that in and of itself is good. Yea we lost, but all of our weaknesses got exposed, which I think is necessary before going into Big East play. I think a major problem last year was that the majority of our losses came from lack of respect from our opponent, that we were able to ignore the majority of our problems and just blame the losses on focus and desire. This game we really tried our hardest and just got outplayed by a better team. Does it suck? Yes. Is it more helpful than losing to ODU, Rutgers,USF and ND because we just didn't show up or our best player was out? Yes. I don't think the issues of this team could have gotten solved last year because that team had so many OTHER issues to deal with. Defense wasn't the focal point of its problems till around February when really its too late to fix it much anyways. This is WHY we played a tough OOC schedule. IDK why, but I think this game will serve as building block towards improvement instead of a foreshadowing of the future. I have no idea why I think this, just a gut feeling. The problem with this team the last few season has been that it hasn't improved or grown defensively throughout the season. It improved in other areas, but never defensively. The 2008 team was a pretty great defensive team from start to finish, but the 2007 team started the season off pretty poorly on the defensive end, and what made them a great team was the improvement on that end of the court. This team has one more chance, and really, since that is clearly their biggest flaw it better be their biggest focus for the next three months. The biggest issues I see defensively are: 1) Our perimeter players have no lateral quickness and also don't realize they have no lateral quickness. They have to play more like Jon Wallace defensively and less like Allen Iverson. They are explosive up and down, but not side to side. 2) We have horrible rotations, and clearly not enough communication. When one person rotates EVERYONE has to rotate and cover, it can't be just one person. AND you can't all just go to ball. Incredibly frustrating to watch. 3)We have 0 ability to play zone. At least a 2-3 zone. I've never seen a team so inept at it for three seasons IN MY LIFE. Honestly its almost a guaranteed three. Now, if we can fix this, we will be golden and fine the rest of the season. If we can't, I don't expect much from this group. Also, it will be interesting to see how good of a defender Moses is. If he is even a competent defender, he might be the best defender on our team sadly enough. This could be an area where he could really help the team, but I don't know if he is ready for it yet.
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Post by dcc33 on Dec 10, 2010 5:57:52 GMT -5
Surprised (well, not really) at all the doom and gloom. Temple is an elite defensive team, it was a tough road environment, and they had guys that made great plays - I honestly believe we got their A+ game last night. Credit to them. We looked a bit tired and hesitant, especially in the first half, but I thought we played well in the second half (given the team we were playing) and were right there to win it on the last possession. Would have been a good win if we pulled it out, and it is far from a bad loss. Not many other teams win that game tonight, and I'm shocked people thought we would win by 10+.
Wish coach had gone to the press more in the first half, and wish Hollis hadn't forced the last shot. Liked the decision not to call the time out - trust the guys to make a good decision, and if they don't, make it a learning experience. Hopefully Hollis has painfully learned that he doesn't need to be MJ on the last play - stay cool, and make the smart play and you win.
Take the hit, learn the lessons that can be learned (and yes, there is plenty to learn from this game), and lets beat down App State by 30 on Sunday!
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HoyaFanNY
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Never throw to the venus on a spider 3 Y banana!
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Dec 10, 2010 7:14:21 GMT -5
terrible performance. i'm amazed we only lost by 3 given how badly we played. the first half was a disaster. offensively, we seemed to rush everything. austin took some bad shots. why JV and JB are taking 3's is beyond me. chris was invisible and everyone was sloppy with the ball. defensively, they basically got any shot they wanted. we rebounded well...that's about the only good thing i can say.
it's only one loss, but we can't be that careless with the ball and play that bad defensively and expect to beat any reasonably good team.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Dec 10, 2010 8:25:30 GMT -5
It wouldnt be a loss if RDF didnt come and castigate every single thing about our team over the course of 15 posts. I hear what you are saying, but cant we sometimes lose a game because the other team played really good defense and outplayed us?
I think people are making way too much of the fact that Temple is somehow just a podunk, average team with no good offense. People think that because they lost 2 games, and average only 60 points, but so what? They've only played 8-9 games just like us. All of a sudden we are supposed to win all these games, and if we dont something is drastically wrong with us? I said going in that this would be our toughest OOC game. We just lost a game. We didnt turn the ball over at ridiculous levels. We outrebounded them. They shot 45%, not 57%. Meh. I didnt think we played all that well either, but I thought most of that was because Temple played 40 minutes of good defense, while a team like Utah St could only do that for 20 minutes.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Dec 10, 2010 8:33:15 GMT -5
GUJook, I have not focused at all on Temple but on the play I saw by the Hoyas. The problem with the lack of offense by the bigs has been there all season. It is getting more exposed when teams like USU and Temple take away the outside shot. Those teams who let us run and play a quick tempo do so at their own risk. Those that slow the game down and extend their defense to the perimeter will give us trouble unless and until we get some scoring inside. Those who clamor against Hollis are fooling themselves--the kid is a player and will develop if he is not run off by the criticism. Before questioning his decisionmaking at the end of the game it is at least appropriate to ask where Jason and Austin were most of the 2nd half. All around poor game and a warning sign to coaches and players alike of what needs to be fixed to continue to have the successful season that we are all hoping to see.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Dec 10, 2010 8:39:48 GMT -5
It's fair to criticize the team, but I do not agree that this was a bad loss that we can't take anything from. I remember last year, lots of people were saying similar things about our 46-45 win over Temple. People said, "oh, man, we are not going to be good. We cant score against a middling Temple team. We look like we cant do anything." Three weeks later, Temple manhandled Villanova and then went on to win the A-10 going away. They were what, a 5-6 in the NCAAs? Temple is a good team. We played them on their court. We lost. We need to learn from the way teams play Big East style D against us and we have now played two (Utah St and Temple) that play that way.
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Dec 10, 2010 8:55:10 GMT -5
What happened to our full court pressure last night? Bad job by JTIII last night. When Clark was ragging the point guard full court Chris or someone else taller should have been used to trap their point guard. JTIII showed the opposition way too much respect last night.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Dec 10, 2010 9:12:29 GMT -5
I agree. Lots of people mentioned going in how the press would be a good tool against Temple. i know it's an excuse, but I do wonder how sick Jason has been. I know he supposedly had the flu.
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chep3
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Post by chep3 on Dec 10, 2010 9:58:55 GMT -5
We used in the first half for like 3 possessions, one of which was a turnover. No idea why didn't go back to it. We have the horses for it, we need to use it in a game like last night's.
Jook, the reason people (myself included) are annoyed with last night is not that we lost, but we made a bad offensive team look good. Temple is a very good team, will be a top 50 RPI team most likely, and is a great defensive team. But they don't have a ton of offensive threats, and we made Moore look like a superstar and Fernandez look like Chris Paul. We have to do a better job at keeping those guys out of the lane, especially a guy like Fernandez who has not been shooting the ball well from deep. There's no reason to get burnt the way we got burnt, not against a team that doesn't stretch the defense.
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joey0403p
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Post by joey0403p on Dec 10, 2010 10:14:38 GMT -5
such a frustrating loss. we just didn't play well. Temple played very well. I hope it was their offense that went off - and not further indication that our defense is not very good. I fear the latter.
i gotta say - i think (well i hope) we play this team and again and shorten our rotation - I think we pull it out. I'm glad we are getting starks, bennimon minutes because you'd think it helps us down the road. But more of our 3 guards, sims, and lubick - i think makes a difference in this one.
well i hope it does.
i'll echo what everyone else has said too - I'd prefer if one of the 3 guards takes the last shot.
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Post by williambraskyiii on Dec 10, 2010 10:41:26 GMT -5
Yuck, just watched the replay of that last play with Hollis. He twisted toward Vaughn at the end of his drive and had to have seen that he was butt azz naked in the paint for the flush. Obviously things happen fast, but first, missing the swing to Freeman on the perimeter, then missing the easy dish to JV, then putting up a wild, soft stuff shot, rather than going strong...bad ending for HT. Hope he learns from it.
In the end, I'd rather have lost to Temple and beaten Memphis than the opposite. Live and learn guys...and MOVE YOUR FEET ON DEFENSE...too much playing D with their hands.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Dec 10, 2010 10:53:39 GMT -5
THE SKY IS FALLING.
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Post by centercourt400s on Dec 10, 2010 11:02:06 GMT -5
Nothing personal chep3 but I hate it when people act like everything that happened was a direct result of what we did or did not do. Instead of thinking that "we made Moore look like a superstar" perhaps it would be wiser to understand that the dude just went off, played way over his head and had a career game. It happens all the time in sports and it cheapens the loss and his performance to make it out like the only reason he did well was because we screwed up. He played great and won the game for them. If he plays anything short of the best game of his life, we win the game. But he DID play the game of his life and we didn't win. Anyone who was a fan back in '85 will know what I am talking about.
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Dhall
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Post by Dhall on Dec 10, 2010 11:09:06 GMT -5
Nothing personal chep3 but I hate it when people act like everything that happened was a direct result of what we did or did not do. Instead of thinking that "we made Moore look like a superstar" perhaps it would be wiser to understand that the dude just went off, played way over his head and had a career game. It happens all the time in sports and it cheapens the loss and his performance to make it out like the only reason he did well was because we screwed up. He played great and won the game for them. If he plays anything short of the best game of his life, we win the game. But he DID play the game of his life and we didn't win. Anyone who was a fan back in '85 will know what I am talking about. Moore played exceptional, but when a guy already has his average at halftime, you have to make an adjustment. I didn't see us doing anything different in the second half to try and stop him compared what we were doing in the first half.
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