OFFICIAL LOST SEASON 5 THREAD

[Nevada Hoya]

Did we have any clue that Penny was pregnant before last night? I was wondering about the time frame. I guess Charlie is about 2 or 2.5, so that would fit in the three year time span from Penny's boat to the present day, at least in LA. Yes, it was a nice touch to call the boy Charlie. And how can we get the Hoyas involved in this time travel, so they can forget the last four games?

[Boz]

If Penny didn't get knocked up the very night that the Oceanic Six were rescued, then Desmond is not the Highlander I took him for.

;D

[vcjack]

Here's a question, although Daniel claimed that they couldn't change history, did he do that by talking to Desmond? It very much so seemed that his conversation with him outside of the hatch didn't actually happen until it did.

I will look it up on lostpedia but I don't suppose that the comotose girl that Desmond finds has any significance in a prior episode?

[jgalt]

Jan 29, 2009 19:49:57 GMT -5 vcjack said:

Here's a question, although Daniel claimed that they couldn't change history, did he do that by talking to Desmond? It very much so seemed that his conversation with him outside of the hatch didn't actually happen until it did.

I will look it up on lostpedia but I don't suppose that the comotose girl that Desmond finds has any significance in a prior episode?

I think has to do with desmond being "different" as faraday said while he was knocking on the door to the hatch. It either has to do with his stuff with eloise or when he became unstuck (i think it is this)

[Boz]

I know a few people who have said they've signed off on the show, but most Lost fans I know still love it just as much. (I, of course, geek that I am, love it more now).

And I don't really even believe those people who've said they've signed off. They still talk about it in conversation and seem to know what's going on.

[jgalt]

There are probably people who have started watching because of where the show has gone since it started, too.

[FLHoya]

Jan 30, 2009 7:24:36 GMT -5 buffalohoya said:

A general Lost question - has any show so radically changed what it was about and still maintained its popularity? Don't get me wrong, I love the show and have pegged it as scifi from the start and own each season on DVD... but there have to be a good number of people out there who loved the show when it was about the relationships of these strangers on an island and the mysteries they encounter (not to mention Charlie, Mr. Eko, etc.) who now hate the show because it has made a complete 180 and is now the wildest hour on TV.

Well, I can share my own experience here and perhaps it's instructive.

I started watching Lost at the beginning of the summer--worked through Seasons 1-4 between about May and September. Never watched it before, somehow I kinda got the hint that it was the type of show that required full investment and if I hadn't already started, it'd be hard. Funny because the basic premise of the show from Day 1--bunch of folks' plane crashes on an island--is exactly the kind of show I'd normally dig, and that's probably why I gave it a shot after all these years.

Now two things here that prob. make me a more ideal Lost fan:

1. I'm okay with shows that do a 180 season-by-season. I watch two Fox shows like this--24 and Prison Break. Now the thing is, you don't need to be there from Day 1 for either of those shows. I didn't watch 24 until Season 4, have only watched parts of Seasons 1-3 and I'm no worse off for it. Do you really NEED to know that much of the Jack Bauer-Tony Almeda backstory to understand this season? Not really. Similarly, Prison Break does such radical 180s that each season is basically a self-contained "heist" or "breakout" plot.

Lost does require buy-in from Day 1, no question. But each season does have an overarching plot that differentiates it from the previous. If you think of it, probably goes something like: The Crash Season, The Hatch Season, The Cages Season, The Freighter Season. Inasmuch as the show is grounded in some kind of "reality", I guess for the non-scifi/"thinker" type, it does gradually stray from a "reality" more each season (I can imagine someone throwing their hands up in disgust and saying "Alright, I've had it!" when Ben turns the donkey wheel).

2. I'm okay with shows that have an underlying sci-fi theme behind the normal "plot". I used to be pretty into Millennium on Fox in the late 90s...which was ostensibly a creeped-out crime procedural with a gradually heeeeeeaaaaaavvvvvyyyyy dose of sci-fi-philoso-religion throw in--sort of like if Lost crashed on an island full of serial killers. Heck, Terry O'Quinn's character on Millennium was actually pretty close to John Locke.

So I'm probably more likely to stick with Lost than your average person. That being said, I can see why people would bail...although for me it's not necessarily the heavy dose of sci-fi.

For me, a good drama show to stick with religiously over the long haul* has to have two elements:

1. A strong overarching theme.

2. A plot that's going somewhere.

(*It's important to make the point that you stay with said show week to week. This differentiates shows of Lost's type from others. You can skip a season of 24--like last year's crapfest for instance--and come back this season and you're fine. You can watch any old episode of CSI, NCIS, Criminal Minds, etc. and it's the same deal. But you have to watch Lost in a serial format.)

My favorite two seasons of Lost are the first and fourth--and I think this is true for a lot of people. The reason for me isn't very profound, but I think relevant.

There was something highly authentic in S1 and S4 thematically--the emotional uncertainty that comes with being stranded on an island and desperately hoping for rescue (well, most people). S1 consists a lot of just trying to survive and tentatively figuring out where you are--it's basic, but a very emotionally complex experience, and you get that from the characters as they gradually resign themselves to being there for a while and set up camp. S4 brings the hope of rescue, but with an interesting twist--nobody's sure what to make of the freighter people, and it becomes a divisive issue that splits the camp...it's basically the height of emotional uncertainty, to get where rescue is seemingly there for the taking, but you can't believe it's true.

On the plot issue...it's a more basic point. S1 and S4 moved and S2 and S3 didn't. Again, not that revolutionary a critique of the show...but did I REALLY need to know the backstory of the Tail Section people? And do I really care what the process is to earn a fish biscuit? S2 and S3 just dragged.

I think the plot issue is more crucial to the average viewer who quits. It simply gets frustrating if a show doesn't seem like it's going anywhere...especially if it gets into the habit of constantly throwing extra hurdles in the way. This is among other things what got Prison Break cancelled and kept losing viewers--the writers eventually had to rely on constantly throwing up roadblocks...well, they're back in prison, or this plot failed, or such and such person got captured...to string the show out (Lost setting a defined end point will alleviate this).

A good example of how a small framing of the plot can help or hurt: a big bummer for me in Lost was when they discovered the pantry in the hatch. That did two things: (1) it shifted the survival theme from them vs. a "deserted" island to them vs. The Others...which robbed the show for a while of the emotional tension I talked about above; (2) it was a seemingly gigantic artificial device thrown in by the writers to say: "okay, settle in, we're gonna be here for a while". Basically: okay, let the lesson/backstory begin. I can see people eventually getting tired and bailing here as the exposition got longer and more drawn out with the writer's having a seemingly blank check for how long they needed to take, thanks to giant tubs of Dharma brand ranch dressing.

By contrast, I thought the way the writers framed S4 was brilliant. One of the best scenes in the series IMO--when Jack and Kate meet at the foot of the runway at night and it ends with him yelling "We have to go back!". Right there it tells you three crucial plot points: (1) they made it off the island; (2) something bad happened; (3) they're dealing with guilt over it. But more crucially for the viewer, it signals--this season is going somewhere...we've told you what happens, now we're gonna show HOW it happened.

That's the vital difference, and why S4 was so awesome and really a revelation. S1 could have sucked in anyone with a plot that when you stripped some things away was very basic with great relationships and emotional authenticity. S2 gave you the hint early--okay, there's a lot going on with this island...but lost people IMO because you had to sit through so much, and there was no real light at the end of the tunnel "but WHY are you telling me this?" Lost is pretty good about sprinkling clues in throughout the show. But not until S4 IMO did they play it so the viewer is actively involved with the mystery. The storytelling and future/present dynamic makes the viewer that much more active w/ the show.

Basically, if you made it S4 you aren't going to quit on it now. S5 so far has been filled with "payoff" in reveals about the mystery--and I don't think it's just because they wanted to make the season premiere(s) memorable. The storytelling now is just so much superior and I think a real reward to folks who stuck with the show.

[vagrant]

I have few answers and enjoy reading your posts. There are a several things, however, that I have not heard addressed.
what is the relationship between the island and the Arctic
a. as ben went down the shaft to turn the wheel he encountered a world of ice, not what you would expect as you descend into a desert island.
b. the polar bear obviously fell into whatever the connection is and ended up on the island having time or space/time traveled.
c. Penny set up her "listening station" somewhere in the Arctic I believe and it may have been from here that she got her first triangulation. I believe this was the last episode of one of the early seasons.
If so, how much does Penny know? How did she know about the "listening" point? Does she know about the island through her father? Was she also born on the island to Widmore and Ellie? In addition the people at the station were speaking another language. It was suggested that they spoke Portuguese. Could it have been Latin? Could they have been "Others" who left the island either by coercion, choice, or an experiment gone awry?

--vagrant

[vagrant]

Sorry, I meant a tropical island, not a desert island (thinking Tunisia and brain got control of my fingers)

[Nevada Hoya]

FL, can't you write anything short? Watching Lost is confusing enough with having to go through your current post.

[FLHoya]

Jan 31, 2009 17:05:31 GMT -5 Nevada Hoya said:

FL, can't you write anything short? Watching Lost is confusing enough with having to go through your current post.

Nope.

PS: The numbers are actually our line score from the 4OT game against Notre Dame.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

Most people have been specualting that at some point widmore will be exiled form the island sometime int he 50's/60's ( perhaps by turning the frozen donkey wheel) and will spend the rest of his time trying to get back to the island. This is the motivation behind his funding of the Dharma initiative int he 70's.

However this theory doesn't seem to aline with the conversation that ben and widmore in season 4 about how ben stole the island from widmore. Because widmore would have had to left the island long before ben got there if he helped fund the DI.

It's all very confusing.

Widmore being an other makes this whole situation very complicated. He was an other so when he sent the DI to set up on the island he knew the others would be there and would not be pleased with this intrusion.

I feel like perhaps widmore was able to come and go from the island and he gained material wealth and started the DI as his bid for power over the island. It seems at the time that ben arrives that the DI is firmly in charge and that the others/hostiles are not the dominate force on the island but are forced to resort to guerilla tactics to attempt to drive the DI from the island. They then initiate the purge with ben's help on the inside.

that's just my random speculatory thoery.

[Nevada Hoya]

Widmore had to be po'ed that Ben killed the DI people.

[Cambridge]

Jan 31, 2009 10:58:34 GMT -5 vagrant said:

I have few answers and enjoy reading your posts. There are a several things, however, that I have not heard addressed.
what is the relationship between the island and the Arctic
a. as ben went down the shaft to turn the wheel he encountered a world of ice, not what you would expect as you descend into a desert island.
b. the polar bear obviously fell into whatever the connection is and ended up on the island having time or space/time traveled.
c. Penny set up her "listening station" somewhere in the Arctic I believe and it may have been from here that she got her first triangulation. I believe this was the last episode of one of the early seasons.
If so, how much does Penny know? How did she know about the "listening" point? Does she know about the island through her father? Was she also born on the island to Widmore and Ellie? In addition the people at the station were speaking another language. It was suggested that they spoke Portuguese. Could it have been Latin? Could they have been "Others" who left the island either by coercion, choice, or an experiment gone awry?

--vagrant

As Tunisia appears to be the exit portal from the Island, I believe the Artic is the entrance portal. That's just my gut.

[jgalt]

Feb 4, 2009 22:04:13 GMT -5 buffalohoya said:

7 - The van Sayid and Ben were driving around read "Canton Rainier Dry Cleaning". "Canton Rainier" is an anagram for "reincarnation"... just so you know.

Clever or obsessive? you make the call ;D

Good insight though Buff. I had been thinking all episode "duh, they are going to take us back to Rousseau getting on the island"

also was thinking about how rousseau was preggers and so was claire and now ben is hell bent on getting aaron and how they have problems with births on the island. i know that they showed that the flight crashing was an accident but maybe the others know when there are people in the area that are preggers and some how get them on the island. well probably already been thought of but just putting it out there

[vcjack]

1. I think that this is the first time that the Island group has actually flashed foward in time. Who is coming in canoes I wonder?

2. Good call on Miles being Dr. Halliwax's kid. So if Daniel is right about exposure to the island important to the nosebleeds, that would explain Miles and Juliet (and Desmond from a while back) but what about Charlotte? Didn't she say something last season about the island being "interesting" to her and her not wanting to leave?

3. Speaking of Charlotte, the whole seizure thing didn't seem to bother her much; she didn't die or get "stuck" in a certain time. There must be more to this.

4. Ben's lawyer is some kind of lawyering hero. Dude can in the blink of an eye get judges to release multiple homicide suspects in less than 24 hours and sign warrants to forcibly make people give blood samples.

[jgalt]

1. i would say that the canoe people were richard etc. but then why would they shoot at who they could probably guess is Locke and who they arent really trying to kill any more. maybe some new peeps but that would get pretty messy. maybe it has something to do with the foot statue.

2. yeah i remember charlotte saying that. wasnt someone thinking that she was a widmore or something?

3. yeah she didnt seem to go back like desmond and just sort of pass out, until the begining of this episode though. maybe it is different because of who they are. and that also brings up the question of whether minkowski was on the island before.

4. so you have been watching lost for 4+ seasons and some clever litigation makes you say "Wow!"?? thats odd

also: do you think Sun shoots ben? does he die? that would kind of throw the plot off...

now the peeps on the island are jumping three years in the "past" so when jack and crew go back things are going to be completely different? that is going to be crazy seeing what they have learned or decided (like that they hate jack) or who they have made friends with. also if ben goes on the island does he jump because he is not an other?

[Boz]

Pretty sure Sun doesn't shoot Ben or Jack or anyone, at least not fatally.

Previewing the next episode, Ben tells Sun, "Jin is alive and I can prove it." Probably enough for her not to shoot him AND to get her back to the island, which obviously has to happen.

[jgalt]

Feb 4, 2009 23:45:58 GMT -5 Boz said:

Pretty sure Sun doesn't shoot Ben or Jack or anyone, at least not fatally.

Previewing the next episode, Ben tells Sun, "Jin is alive and I can prove it." Probably enough for her not to shoot him AND to get her back to the island, which obviously has to happen.

Ahhh, i was watching online and the stream ended before the preview

[Boz]

So where ARE Rose and Bernard, anyway?

I think I must've missed something in these episodes. Are the "jumpers" only the ones we've been following? If so, why?

If the other left-behinds are jumping as well, then I think we should've at least gotten a scene with them over the course of the first few episodes.

I need to go look that up somewhere, but if someone has an answer, I'd appreciate it.

Overall, I think this episode really dragged a bit (then again, I am beginning to hate Jack and Kate again and half wish Sun WOULD shoot the both of them). Don't get me wrong, it was good overall, but not nearly as good as the first two. I think that's probably because, at least with respect to the O6, we KNOW they have to get back to the island, so their story -- at the moment -- is really just about machinations to make that happen. The jumper parts of the episode were still very good.

Finally in my best 5-year old sing-song voice......

"Sawyer loooves Kaaate. Juliet loooves Saaaawyer."